Joined: 03 Apr 2003 Posts: 27468 Location: Liberty City, the Netherlands Status: Offline
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 16:10 Post subject: Meet the Devs - yet more quotes
While we're trying to keep the Meet the Devs feature up to speed, here are a few more interesting quotes (also thanks to Briosafreak):
Which matters more to you, a game that sells a lot and makes a lot of money or a game that’s great and will be loved, maybe even worshipped by its fans?
(Carter) This is a false dichotomy. There’s infinite space for success between those two extremes. That said, if I had to choose between making a game that everyone loves but causes financial ruin to myself and my coworkers, and one that makes us rich, you better believe I’d rather eat I don’t believe success is anathema to quality, though. Far from it.
Anyway, I hope someone’ll answer my question. I already asked twice, and I think it’s a really interesting one because it’d show/say a lot about how the devs think/feel about dialog…
(Carter) What can change the nature of a man? I played Torment and thought it was fantastic. I don’t think the amount of dialog has much to do with a game reaching a mass audience. I think to reach people, all aspects of gameplay have to have something compelling about them. Also, I’ll set up my own false dichotomy and say I’d rather have better words than simply more words
On Oblivion:
(Zeleny) Personally, I thought Oblivion was a big advance in RPGs of its day. It provides freedom of direction and play-style that hadn’t been seen in any RPG since the heydays of Fallout, System Shock, and other classics in the field. Its expansive size ensured that players who enjoyed it could lose themselves in it for days, weeks, and months and still discover new things. And the inclusion of the construction set meant that players were free to easily change elements of the game they didn’t like, and to create new experiences for others.
But it’s important to point out is that nobody here thinks it’s perfect. Like any finicky creative types, we’re painfully aware of the flaws in the final piece. And, like any creative types, knowing about those flaws means we can focus on overcoming them in our next piece. That’s one of the reasons I’m always working on writing more dialogue for characters and adding options to quests.
This awareness, coupled with more resources to work with – thanks to the commercial success of Oblivion – means we’re set to make our next work better than our previous. And that’s always the goal of any creator, isn’t it?
Caps or Gold Coins? (Opinion)
(Zeleny) When I got the collector's edition of Oblivion, it came with a replica golden septim coin, like in the game. It's a nice little keepsake, and it's got a substantial feel to it. But after playing a character up to level 30-something, I realized he was running around carrying nearly twenty thousand of those coins. That's gotta take a lot of strength, especially with all of the jumping I was doing.
So, I think I'd prefer a bottle-cap based currency. They're lighter, more colorful, and as they say, "Drink a Nuka Cola - get a free cap!"
I have to ask though, who makes the most important decisions about the game? Is it the lead Designer or management (suits)? Do you guys come to such decisions together, or is it one man that calls the biggest shots? Maybe DoctorSpooky can enlighten that a little, if its not to nosy...
(Caponi) I'm obviously not going to go into very much detail here, but the talented people in our management and administration have absolutely no hand in the development of the games here. They recognize that it is our job to make games and their jobs are to sell them, manage the money, save us from the piles of paperwork that come with running a business, and make sure our lights stay on. They are very good businesspeople. There has never been and likely never will be someone from administration down here telling us to change art, change a system design, or anything like that.
So, don't worry, Fallout is safely hidden and protected from evil men and sinister women in suits.
if there was one thing you absolutely hated about the original Fallouts, what is it and why?
(Gonzalez) Whenever I start an RPG, I always make a version of myself. Who doesn't want to live vicarously in a game world? Anywho, the very first time I played Fallout, this meant low Strength and Endurance, high Intellect, tag Science. Annnnd I died horrendously over and over at the hands of Radscorpions and got really frustrated and didn't pick up the game for a day or two. Then I sucked it up, tried again, realized that the time game abounded with non-combat alternatives, and lived happily ever after.
On fan input (thanks starwars)
(Gonzalez) While there are a number of things already set in stone about the game, there are also a number of things that aren't, that is to say, things above the "Easter Egg" level. The devs do read these forums ( not all of us, but a goodly number ) and we do discuss a number of good ideas brought up right here. Some we've already implemented, some we bat around and put on the "Good Idea" pile, and some we disagree with. So, to bluntly answer your question here, yes, we are listening, your ideas are heard and talked about "behind the scenes".
That being said, the best way to get our attention and get us talking amongst ourselves to write out a reasoned post. Flames and rants, while fun to write ( and read, on occasion ), are usually low on good content and thus ignored. We also, obviously, can't say on the forums, "Yes, this is a good idea, and we'll definitely think about putting it in the game" since 1) we all have very powerful pieces of paper with our names on them in triplicate that can and will destroy us and everyone we love if we leak info, and 2) we're pretty busy developing the game, so we can't stop to reply to every thread that catches our eye. So there. To the people who hold out hope, keep writing! To those who thought we've been ignoring you, sorry to disappoint?
Link: Meet the Devs _________________ No Mutants Allowed, your Fallout resource - Fallout: New Vegas - Brother None counts down his favourite games
"There are two novels that can change a bookish 14-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world.
The other, of course, involves orcs." --John Rogers
Last edited by Brother None on Wed May 16, 2007 16:41; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 371 Location: Sweden Status: Offline
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 16:22 Post subject:
The devs that post there are rather nice people, and seems to have good taste. I hope I won't have to start disliking them because of Fallout 3, hehe.
For what it's worth, socrates200x posted in the "Our opinion matters?" thread.
Quote:
While there are a number of things already set in stone about the game, there are also a number of things that aren't, that is to say, things above the "Easter Egg" level. The devs do read these forums ( not all of us, but a goodly number ) and we do discuss a number of good ideas brought up right here. Some we've already implemented, some we bat around and put on the "Good Idea" pile, and some we disagree with. So, to bluntly answer your question here, yes, we are listening, your ideas are heard and talked about "behind the scenes".
That being said, the best way to get our attention and get us talking amongst ourselves to write out a reasoned post. Flames and rants, while fun to write ( and read, on occasion ), are usually low on good content and thus ignored. We also, obviously, can't say on the forums, "Yes, this is a good idea, and we'll definitely think about putting it in the game" since 1) we all have very powerful pieces of paper with our names on them in triplicate that can and will destroy us and everyone we love if we leak info, and 2) we're pretty busy developing the game, so we can't stop to reply to every thread that catches our eye. So there. To the people who hold out hope, keep writing! To those who thought we've been ignoring you, sorry to disappoint?
Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 509 Location: Iceland Status: Offline
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 16:43 Post subject: Re: Meet the Devs - yet more quotes
Quote:
(Zeleny) Personally, I thought Oblivion was a big advance in RPGs of its day. It provides freedom of direction and play-style that hadn’t been seen in any RPG since the heydays of Fallout, System Shock, and other classics in the field. Its expansive size ensured that players who enjoyed it could lose themselves in it for days, weeks, and months and still discover new things.
I take it (s)he's never played any of the Gothic games then?
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 17:18 Post subject: Re: Meet the Devs - yet more quotes
Unkillable Cat wrote:
I take it (s)he's never played any of the Gothic games then?
Or a MMOG?
MMOs don't count.
Gothic 2.. glorified Morrowind clone.. never saw the big deal, myself.
Still, Zeleny's Oblivion = revolutionary!! stance is a load of old cobblers. And worryingly common among Bethesda devs.
He's confusing freedom with simple-mindedness. And I love how Bethesda repeatedly fails acknowledge Oblivions simplistic and linear quests. _________________
Like any finicky creative types, we’re painfully aware of the flaws in the final piece. And, like any creative types, knowing about those flaws means we can focus on overcoming them in our next piece.
...and that's the reason why we've climbed the mountain of dullness in Oblivion finally, after the flaws of Morrowind and after Daggerfall. We're improving our dumb-down-system at every new botch, because we're these most creative types your mother always has warned you of. _________________ <<retired>>
Joined: 18 Mar 2004 Posts: 4882 Location: The Old Dominion Status: Offline
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 17:43 Post subject: Re: Meet the Devs - yet more quotes
Vault 69er wrote:
Gothic 2.. glorified Morrowind clone.. never saw the big deal, myself.
...the hell? Besides the fact that Gothic II plays in much the same tradition as the original Gothic, which was released a full year before Morrowind; Gothic II came out only seven months after Morrowind, after a much longer time in development. Gothic II was even shown at E3 of that year, which was held only several weeks after Morrowind was released.
Your statement is baffling. Is the original Gothic a preemptive Morrowind clone? It would have to be for Gothic II to be one, since the exploration and open-world aspects are virtually unchanged between the it and the sequal.
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 17:46 Post subject: Re: Meet the Devs - yet more quotes
Tannhauser wrote:
Vault 69er wrote:
Gothic 2.. glorified Morrowind clone.. never saw the big deal, myself.
...the hell? Besides the fact that Gothic II plays in much the same tradition as the original Gothic, which was released a full year before Morrowind; Gothic II came out only seven months after Morrowind, after a much longer time in development. Gothic II was even shown at E3 of that year, which was held only several weeks after Morrowind was released.
Your statement is baffling. Is the original Gothic a preemptive Morrowind clone? It would have to be for Gothic II to be one, since the exploration and open-world aspects are virtually unchanged between the it and the sequal.
And Morrowind plays in a somewhat similar tradition to Daggerfall.
Perhaps calling it a Morrowind clone is unfair though, I was simply conveying my feelings of it being a generic, unremarkable RPG. _________________
Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 486 Location: Kent, WA Status: Offline
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 22:56 Post subject:
Quote:
1) we all have very powerful pieces of paper with our names on them in triplicate that can and will destroy us and everyone we love if we leak info,
lol !!! aww
They do seem to be good ideas... But we will judge them on their actions and not their words! _________________ We can always opt for electric brain shock to forget our memories. So long as we remember to make a note to play Fallout and Fallout 2!!! and AFTERFALL w007!!!! 1337ness!!!!!!
1) we all have very powerful pieces of paper with our names on them in triplicate that can and will destroy us and everyone we love if we leak info,
lol !!! aww
They do seem to be good ideas... But we will judge them on their actions and not their words!
Quote:
Which matters more to you, a game that sells a lot and makes a lot of money or a game that’s great and will be loved, maybe even worshipped by its fans?
(Carter) This is a false dichotomy. There’s infinite space for success between those two extremes. That said, if I had to choose between making a game that everyone loves but causes financial ruin to myself and my coworkers, and one that makes us rich, you better believe I’d rather eat I don’t believe success is anathema to quality, though. Far from it.
i didnt get the second last sentence... can someone express it in a more simple way, so that i, the english-noob, understands it too?
would be nice
<3
Joined: 05 May 2007 Posts: 192 Location: The Codex Status: Offline
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:03 Post subject:
Quote:
On Oblivion:
(Zeleny) Personally, I thought Oblivion was a big advance in RPGs of its day................
Advance, eh? Morrowind was *far* more free form than Oblivion, it had a vastly more interesting world and came with both a construction kit and a 3D exporter (no official exporter for Obliv) as well. I guess he conveniently forgot about that 'obscure' title...
Onto the Shock/FO comparisons, what the hell is freedom of direction? If it's the order in which you choose quests, FO wins. FO didn't force you down a set path, you could pretty much do quests in any order you fancied, skipping out whole swathes if you so wanted. Obliv on the other hand was hideously linear and spoon fed. You had to do *every* quest in the order given, and there were no forks either. Similarly if freedom of direction means running around the landscape, admiring yet another generated hill and being attacked by yet another critter - well last time I checked you could travel around FO's world map getting attacked, not that you wanted to.
As for the comparison with Shock, well that is a joke. Totally different breeds of game, with hugely different scope. SS is a corridor based survival horror FPS game, with classes. The comparison should've been against games of the same ilk, i.e; Arcanum, Baldur's Gate 2, etc. But I guess we all know why he didn't make that argument.
I'm glad they acknowledge there were flaw's in Oblivion. But I really do doubt that they will learn from them. Morrowind had a lot of flaws and we heard the same shyte - the result was Oblivion; the sequel which broke everything that worked, and inflated all the existing problems (as well as adding some new ones). Hardly promising :/
To be honest, the devs are saying the right things.
But they always have done, ever since they first acquired the FO license (well, apart from Pete to some extent). And then you have Oblivion, lots of promises, quite a few disappointed fans.
Joined: 16 Aug 2006 Posts: 2127 Location: Porto, Portugal Status: Offline
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:29 Post subject:
Kukident wrote:
Quote:
Which matters more to you, a game that sells a lot and makes a lot of money or a game that’s great and will be loved, maybe even worshipped by its fans?
(Carter) This is a false dichotomy. There’s infinite space for success between those two extremes. That said, if I had to choose between making a game that everyone loves but causes financial ruin to myself and my coworkers, and one that makes us rich, you better believe I’d rather eat I don’t believe success is anathema to quality, though. Far from it.
i didnt get the second last sentence... can someone express it in a more simple way, so that i, the english-noob, understands it too?
would be nice
<3
He says that if he had to choose between a crappy mainstream success (Oblivion) and a sidestream good game (Fallout), he would surely choose the first, because he has to eat. Also, he says quality and mainstream success can go along, and are not opposites of each other.
And, of course, those who developed fallout were homeless bums and those o develop the civilization series are some rats in a cave starving to death... He only implies it, and doesn't clearly say it... _________________ Wendigo Design, by Tiago Sá
He says that if he had to choose between a crappy mainstream success (Oblivion) and a sidestream good game (Fallout), he would surely choose the first, because he has to eat. Also, he says quality and mainstream success can go along, and are not opposites of each other.
And, of course, those who developed fallout were homeless bums and those o develop the civilization series are some rats in a cave starving to death... He only implies it, and doesn't clearly say it...
Er, no he doesn't. He was given a choice between two very specific things (quality or money), and chose money 'cause he needs to eat. He didn't make any statements about any games whatsoever. _________________ No Mutants Allowed, your Fallout resource - Fallout 3 modding
Sander is a finely tuned instrument of death, and as such is only used when the need arises. He hates posters no more than a Tsunami would hate a Japanese coastal village, or a Hurricane hates black people. - DirtyDreamDesigner
My main consolation is that only silly people follow silly advice - E.W. Dijkstra
He says that if he had to choose between a crappy mainstream success (Oblivion) and a sidestream good game (Fallout), he would surely choose the first, because he has to eat. Also, he says quality and mainstream success can go along, and are not opposites of each other.
And, of course, those who developed fallout were homeless bums and those o develop the civilization series are some rats in a cave starving to death... He only implies it, and doesn't clearly say it...
Er, no he doesn't. He was given a choice between two very specific things (quality or money), and chose money 'cause he needs to eat. He didn't make any statements about any games whatsoever.
Means he's a business man before an artist. Someone who truely loves their work would choose quality over money. I think the statement reflects poorly on him. _________________ Apathy Cannot Inspire.
Ambivalence cannot lead.
Loved me. Feared me.
Changed me. Killed me.
Anything would be something.
But nothing is worst of all.
Means he's a business man before an artist. Someone who truely loves their work would choose quality over money. I think the statement reflects poorly on him.
I don't know. I certainly would go for money over art, because money would allow me to make art more in my vein.
Of course, in the case of Bethsoft this doesn't apply, since a succesful game isn't directly reflected in a rise of pay. _________________ No Mutants Allowed, your Fallout resource - Fallout 3 modding
Sander is a finely tuned instrument of death, and as such is only used when the need arises. He hates posters no more than a Tsunami would hate a Japanese coastal village, or a Hurricane hates black people. - DirtyDreamDesigner
My main consolation is that only silly people follow silly advice - E.W. Dijkstra
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 15:20 Post subject: Re: Meet the Devs - yet more quotes
Quote:
I have to ask though, who makes the most important decisions about the game? Is it the lead Designer or management (suits)? Do you guys come to such decisions together, or is it one man that calls the biggest shots? Maybe DoctorSpooky can enlighten that a little, if its not to nosy...
(Caponi) I'm obviously not going to go into very much detail here, but the talented people in our management and administration have absolutely no hand in the development of the games here. They recognize that it is our job to make games and their jobs are to sell them, manage the money, save us from the piles of paperwork that come with running a business, and make sure our lights stay on. They are very good businesspeople. There has never been and likely never will be someone from administration down here telling us to change art, change a system design, or anything like that.
So, don't worry, Fallout is safely hidden and protected from evil men and sinister women in suits.
For the purposes of Fallout 3, Todd and I have worked really closely on design. To be honest, Todd and I work really well together creatively; we share most of the same philosophies, and want the player to have the same kinds of experiences. So the overall design (setting, combat, story, quests, etc.) is mine, with a healthy dose of input from Todd (most of which I agree with anyway). Ultimately, Todd could have vetoed my entire design -- but very little of my original idea has changed. And the other designers work with the stuff Todd and I have established, and run with it -- often putting their own touches on things, as is expected.
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 Posts: 59 Location: atlanta Status: Offline
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 15:23 Post subject:
BlueTooth wrote:
Ziltoid wrote:
Morbus wrote:
He says that if he had to choose between a crappy mainstream success (Oblivion) and a sidestream good game (Fallout), he would surely choose the first, because he has to eat. Also, he says quality and mainstream success can go along, and are not opposites of each other.
And, of course, those who developed fallout were homeless bums and those o develop the civilization series are some rats in a cave starving to death... He only implies it, and doesn't clearly say it...
Er, no he doesn't. He was given a choice between two very specific things (quality or money), and chose money 'cause he needs to eat. He didn't make any statements about any games whatsoever.
Means he's a business man before an artist. Someone who truely loves their work would choose quality over money. I think the statement reflects poorly on him.
Means he's living in the real world. I'm a senior designer at a pretty large web design firm and while doing lovely 'art' and design is all good, you also have to get paid. That means sometimes you have to take shortcuts. There are deadlines, there are many documents that spell out what you can and can't do, and in the end, the management's bottom line is what you're going after, not your own artsy fartsy ideas of what the client(s) will like.
Of course at the same time it depends. I'm sure beth has the money to handle producing a game doesn't sell as well, rather producing a game that's absolutely kick ass and caters more to the hardcore fans.
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