Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:25 Post subject: Kieron Gillen on Fallout 3
Kieron Gillen is known from PC Gamer and also one of the writers on the gaming blog Rock, Paper, Shotgun. This time around he takes a look at Fallout 3, the whys, hows and whatwillbecomes of it all.
I’ve said this before, but the nagging question is why they’d take up this particular poisoned chalice of post-apocalypse role-playing anyway. “A new game by the makers of Oblivion” is a much bigger story to the gaming mainstream than “Sequel to old PC game you haven’t played”. Hell, the “3″ even risks alienating people who’ve never played (or heard of) the original, dismissing it out of hand - there’s eighteen year old PC Gamers who’d have been six when the thing comes out. Even putting aside that, the friends it buys you will brook no compromise. The Fallout fanbase epitomised by the cheery souls of No Mutants Allowed, having had a decade to stew over disappointment after disappointment, are openly fanatical. As much as they’d protest it, no-one can see them accepting anything Bethesda would produce.
Ultimately, this pre-match discussion is a little pointless. We’re all going to play this.
Yeah, for some creative definitions of "all".
So why do it? Well, three reasons come to mind.
Firstly, I could just be wrong and Fallout is a much bigger deal than I thought and that little Pip-Boy is a key to a world of infinite money. I don’t think so.
Secondly, Bethesda may be as dirty fanboys as the NMA guys. It may just be as simple as plain lust for Fallout, the plain desire to write a sequel to a game they think is brilliant. This sort of things strikes even the brightest creative minds - look over at Comics, where there’s a strata of some of the medium’s brightest minds whose most heartfelt desire is to have a shot at Superman. They’re insane, and if they had any sense they’d be doing their own thing… but that they don’t have that sense means that it’s done as an act of devotion. This is actually a good reason to give a damn about Fallout 3. People working on something that’s genuinely invested in, on average, leads to better work.
Thirdly… well, one of the major worries about Fallout 3 from even less fanatical fans is that they don’t believe Bethesda are capable of wrestling with the actions-and-consequences aspects that have traditionally been involved in a Fallout Game - they’re fine with multiple mechanisms (Assuming they get the experience system right), but the payoffs are limited. Just as key is their limitations as creators of fiction - while they’re good at verisimilitude and a sense of place, the fiction - dialogue, plot, whatever - of the Elder Scrolls have been merely acceptable at best throughout. This has lead some people to think that Bethesda, by definition, can’t do it. Thing is, by buying Fallout 3, they cover their weaknesses. They don’t need to create a world from whole-cloth - they have an inspiring world. They don’t need to work out how people act and talk - they have a game which shows the interactions between individuals and whatever. Buying Fallout actually acts as a crutch for Bethesda’s traditional faults.
They don’t need to work out how people act and talk - they have a game which shows the interactions between individuals and whatever. Buying Fallout actually acts as a crutch for Bethesda’s traditional faults.
I think this argument is pretty weak. Having a whole slew of games set in the Forgotten Realms didn't stop the Icewind Dales and Neverwinter Nights from having lackluster dialogue and interaction. The Fallout world isn't so idiosyncratic that writing interesting people in it doesn't depend more on general writing skills than Fallout-specific writing skills. _________________ Game help can be found in my Fallout guides.
elpintogrande wrote:
The people who are a part of the "Fallout Community" have been refined and distilled over time into glittering gems of hatred.
Joined: 12 Jan 2004 Posts: 2578 Location: Leeuwarden, The Netherlands Status: Offline
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:09 Post subject:
Thats is also one of my problems with Bethesda's Fallout 3 fiction, they find it easy to copy character types from the earlier games and situations such as Super Mutants marching around, but they add nothing new to it.
The dialogue is one of the things I really feel we are going to be disappointed about it, characters constantly using swear words as if its a standard part of everyone's vocabulary.
Not for the sake to make clear how characters feel about a situation or person but because 'shit' and 'fuck' has to be inserted for the sake of insertion. _________________
_________________
They don’t need to work out how people act and talk - they have a game which shows the interactions between individuals and whatever. Buying Fallout actually acts as a crutch for Bethesda’s traditional faults.
I doubt they're using much from FO 1 & 2. Bethesda's pretty arrogant about doing it their own way, and have pointed out that some people may not like the finished product. I think that puts them back at square one, as if they're creating their own IP, except they've got a whole bunch of fans offside before they even begin.
Quote:
the “3″ even risks alienating people who’ve never played (or heard of) the original
I thought this was a good point, and Bethesda could get a (slightly) more positive response from fans and newcomers by not using "3" in the title.
Kieron's a nice guy, but his opinions are a bit iffy to say the least.
One of his reviews was responsible for opening my eyes to the infiltration of game journalism by hype and marketing.
I'm talking about Deus Ex: Invisible War, a game universally derided by the gaming community as being a bit shit really.
Kieron gave it 92%.
Since then, I've not been able to take much of what Kieron says too seriously.
I'm always interested to see what he says, if only to see if he's able to regain some of his credibility. After all, he's a good wordsmith whose articles are fun to read.
I also don't consider myself an NMA-er (yet), but I've come to realise that quite often NMA is unjustly labelled as being a bunch of raving fanatics. I think this reputation exists purely because of the outspoken attitudes of some of the older, now less active posters.
Nowadays you guys take a much more measured approach to things.
Unfortunately, it seems it's trendy to mention "the fanatics over at NMA" at every given opportunity in every Op-Ed devoted to Fallout 3. It's kind of like covering your arse so the developer doesn't take too much offense to your criticism:
"Look, I'm going to say a couple of bad things about Fallout 3 and raise a couple of niggles with it, but woah, at least I'm not as bad as those weirdos over at NMA!".
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:08 Post subject: Re: Kieron Gillen on Fallout 3
Per wrote:
Secondly, Bethesda may be as dirty fanboys as the NMA guys. It may just be as simple as plain lust for Fallout, the plain desire to write a sequel to a game they think is brilliant.
NMA has ~12000 users and probably most of them have played FOs. Not to mention guys like Per and Ausir who *know* Fallout. And Bethesda? ~3 guys who have played Fallout and how many people who know Fallout? Ask them about BoS origins and watch them suffer.
But hey, "may" is the operative word. And the other side of "may" is "may not". _________________
Quote:
True, fusion cells shouldn't just explode, but then again, I don't really care. Exploding cars are fun.
They don't care about anyone past 22, as they are a smaller margin of gamers than those 16-18'ers who are looking for a quick stim experience before they go to bed.
Games of the past were innovative and created fierce fanbases, and honestly the devs of those days didn't have PR departments or market analyzers, they were in it because they had an idea and thought that they could make that idea a reality, and make money off of it.
Make no mistake, all of our beloved games were a shot at the pot so to speak, however the demeanor that they went at it in the past is far different than today, nowadays you see them instead of fighting to meet deadlines, they constantly push them back expecting the fanbases to wait, and usually they do.
They set their own schedules, ignore what others say, and are generally self-righteous gits, as companies go, their treatment of customers is rock bottom as they don't even have to see their customers.
Then we get to the PR and Market Analyzers, the bean counters and naysayers, any independent thought is quashed by these two devils in soothsayer's garb, whispering what they believe the market will promise to have the most sales and repeat purchases to the CEO of the company in order to maximize profit, and have no real working as to why the fanbases actually exist, only that they exist to be exploited until the last fetters of fandom fade and they move on to another IP.
All in all, gaming production is becoming a machine, a terrible machine that eats up independent thought in favor of increasing market share by another 2% for their stockholders. Heartless men quashing the aspirations of the programmers and story-writers to increase the profit margin of the company, yes their pocketbooks are important, but when they're destroying a game to make it have more 'market appeal' is simply wrong.
Give me back my Westwood you evil conglomerate EA! _________________ I'm not crazy, I'm just a wicker chair!
xdarkyrex wrote:
I do not care about the tastews of either group, only the end result. They are both equally negligible imho.
Yes, it is my opinion. Its a pretty common opinion though.
Why the hell SHOULD anyone care about more than that? what is the practical purpose of giving a shit about why it was made?
I suspect that Bethesda´s ambitions are a bit more complex-
-THey don´t go with an original post apoc game because that´s too risky. Fallout has many of the elements that fit into a nice post-apoc game- there is action, interaction, mutations, monsters, quests- a post-apoc fantasy game. This is weighed against the danger of alienating most fallout fans (of which the hardcore seems a marginal group to them).
- the benefits of drawing in a new group of fans to a rather stale market.
- This gives them the chance to develop a new engine and test it (in a smaller game world) that might be applicable to other RPG genres - (crime noir/scifi/ horror/ fantasy).
- while potentially opening a way to more fallouts based on Fallout 3. _________________
"The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but someday the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."
HP Lovecraft.
Joined: 22 Jan 2007 Posts: 127 Location: Berlin Status: Offline
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 13:42 Post subject:
welsh wrote:
- This gives them the chance to develop a new engine and test it (in a smaller game world) that might be applicable to other RPG genres - (crime noir/scifi/ horror/ fantasy).
They didn't develop a new engine for Fallout 3. _________________ "Aren't you supposed to work?" "Compiling."
Joined: 03 Apr 2003 Posts: 2679 Location: UK Status: Offline
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 15:15 Post subject:
Mick1965 wrote:
I doubt they're using much from FO 1 & 2. Bethesda's pretty arrogant about doing it their own way, and have pointed out that some people may not like the finished product. I think that puts them back at square one, as if they're creating their own IP, except they've got a whole bunch of fans offside before they even begin.
I think it's more likely a less risk of copyright infringements. New IP in a fantasy setting, elves, dwarves, trolls, dragons etc creatures from myth and legend. As long as you stay away from calling a halfling a Hobbit you've pretty much on safe ground. But creating a new IP in another setting and you're walking through a potential minefield of copyrights. Buying an existing IP is a safer option, someone has jumped through the legal hoops already. _________________ Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 8501 Location: MaxiMegalon Institute of Slowly and Painfully Working Out the Suprisingly Obvious Status: Offline
Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 20:21 Post subject: Re: Kieron Gillen on Fallout 3
Kieron Gillen wrote:
I’ve said this before, but the nagging question is why they’d take up this particular poisoned chalice of post-apocalypse role-playing anyway. “A new game by the makers of Oblivion” is a much bigger story to the gaming mainstream than “Sequel to old PC game you haven’t played”. Hell, the “3″ even risks alienating people who’ve never played (or heard of) the original, dismissing it out of hand - there’s eighteen year old PC Gamers who’d have been six when the thing comes out. Even putting aside that, the friends it buys you will brook no compromise. The Fallout fanbase epitomised by the cheery souls of No Mutants Allowed, having had a decade to stew over disappointment after disappointment, are openly fanatical. As much as they’d protest it, no-one can see them accepting anything Bethesda would produce.
Ultimately, this pre-match discussion is a little pointless. We’re all going to play this.
well, i think what he writes is fair. sure, he might not know the material well enough to say something really insightful on the subject, but at least he's openminded and isn't goaded into the usual fanbase bashing like most of the other brainless fuckwit bloggers and 'professional' journalists that don't have a clue what they're talking about.
Brother None wrote:
Didn't SuA say that about the bar dude? Gizmo ripoff?
a bad one, but yeah. it totally lacked character though. the dude was way too bland to even be considered in the same league as Gizmo, but i certainly felt as if that's what they were aiming for. _________________ Per is the bestest lizard.
G.K. Chesterton (on the agressiveness of Fallout fans?) wrote:
"Reason is always a kind of brute force; those who appeal to the head rather than the heart, however pallid and polite, are necessarily men of violence. We speak of touching a man's heart, but we can do nothing to his head but hit it."
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:02 Post subject: oatnad
ok well flame twice for the same post but i appreciate the nnpen mindedness ya we all have our opinions why fo3 is going to suck but in a way it's refreshing to hear new opinions from non-nma personnel shrug you know they tried to include us with the pseudo 3rd person isometric so how we hate on them for that but it still seems their intention is to produce a fps fallout maybe a more a more apt title would be oblivion:fallout lmao oh yah remove strikes that was like over 7 mos ago iirc _________________ A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords at dawn
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As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas
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Game help can be found in my 
