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Thread: Just Wondering.... (Relates to Jagged Alliance 2)

  1. #1
    I should set a custom title Still Mildly Glowing

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    Just Wondering.... (Relates to Jagged Alliance 2)

    how this forum has not caught the latest news.

    JA2, a very much akin to FO 1 & 2 in play style (if not content) game has recently had some good news, a company is going to make a Jagged Alliance 2 : Reloaded game!!

    that was the good news. a brand new game engine, new graphics etc

    Until... *quoted from their forums...*

    Dear Community,

    Many thanks for your many proposals and suggestions. This has obviously sparked off heated discussions that have provoked a wide range of opinions about how we could change the combat system, if we should change it and, if so, what changes would be best suited to the game.

    To ensure that Jagged Alliance 2 makes a successful transition into 2011 and that the remake is as attractive as possible to players who know the Jagged Alliance series and to those who have yet to play it, we will simply make a few changes to the existing JA2 combat system. We are calling the new combat system the “Plan & Go” system. It is based more on real time, and represents a departure from the original combat system in Jagged Alliance 2. We would like to outline the significant changes below, and hope that you, the official JA2 community, will be as excited as we are about them.

    Basically, the overall strategy in the combat system remains the same! The player has to identify strategically advantageous positions on the map to minimize losses to his own side as far as possible.

    In the “Plan & Go” system we have omitted the “Fog of War”, which covered most of the map in JA2. Enemies positioned outside buildings are permanently visible, which enables the player to establish a strategy from the outset without having to constantly save and load. In addition, the world looks much more animated and lively as the hostile forces patrol in the meticulously detailed 3D backdrops.

    The “Plan & Go” system removes the turn-based structure. If the player wants to react to an incident, he can pause the game at any time or allow the game to pause automatically by carrying out a particular activity (e.g. if a mercenary has run out of ammunition).

    The real-time elements in the “Plan & Go” system also add new and exciting features such as “Timing” for example. As the enemies are patrolling all over the map, the player must time his movements very precisely to defend himself against his enemies. Here, the need to quicksave/quick load is greatly reduced, as the risks and challenges are more easily identified and the effect of the risk is reduced to a much shorter time (e.g. a character is sighted before he has reached his target, so the shooting starts earlier than anticipated).

    The “Plan & Go” system also enables players to specify the conditions under which his units can attack independently; they can therefore open fire when enemies enter their range of vision. This offers players the same tactical depth in terms of decision-making, and also intensifies the combat experience, because more experienced players have to pause much less frequently and, for the most part, can let the game progress in real time. In particular, this speeds up battles with large numbers of fighters and which seemed like they would never end in the original game!

    The advantages of the “Plan & Go” system opposed to the turn-based original are:

    • It is dynamic, as it allows combat in real time.
    • It introduces timing as a new element: it enables the player to spot and assess enemy movements, so he can either cleverly sneak past, or lie in wait and choose the right moment to attack.
    • It avoids the situation where you get mixed up in a battle while your mercenaries are some distance from the front. JA2 was very time-consuming in this respect, because players had to lag behind for several turns while they moved all their mercenaries to the front.
    • Combat with large numbers of enemies happen more quickly; in JA2 it took ages for the round to finish when numerous mercenaries and enemies were involved in the battle.
    • The new system also allows us to incorporate new AI functions such as cutting off and flanking enemies, that only work when actions are carried out simultaneously and not one after the other.

    Your bitComposer Team

    The gist of that if TLR... no longer are we making JA2 into a modern game, we're fekking around and making some mumbo jumbo RTS thing

    Another Classic game, bought out and soon to be flayed of any resemblance to its predecessors.

    Just wondered if anyone here was a JA2 fan.... (and isn't a resident @ the Bear Pit) hope this is imformative at least!

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    I should set a custom title Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

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    I saw it over at RPGCodex, what a shame.

    I'm puzzled as to why they think real-time is the next step in evolution for turn-based games, retard developers have to understand that real-time and turn-based are two completely separate genres.

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    I should set a custom title Companion to the Last Proton
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    Damn it.

    This sucks.

    I guess this means that I can't initiate a two-pronged attack using two different strike teams to throw my enemies for a loop because I GET TO PLAN AND GO!

    *dull RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGEEEEEEEE*


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    I should set a custom title A Smooth-Skin

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    HAhahahahahaha.

    It's just too funny.
    I mean... What the fuck... It's like a plague. No one has to take over old and hardcore franchises to turn them into mainstream.
    Yet they do it with every single one ! JA was one of the few that had been spared.
    But today, it fell too, and the plague keeps spreading.

    The truth is we as fans are being exploited as an unwilling advertising system.

    It really feels like franchise rape to me. I think we should have an international law to prevent such violations.
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  5. #5
    I should set a custom title Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

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    And there goes 95% of their sales to old fans and probably most of their profit. I'm curious how they think that this will somehow appeal to a bigger crowd? I looked up the official forum and they've pretty much said it all, they are turning a niche title with a dedicated consumer base into a nice title with a nebulous consumer base at best.

    I get the feeling that their JA games will sink the company.

    "Pessimism is, in brief, playing the sure game. You cannot lose at it; you may gain. It is the only view of life in which you can never be disappointed. Having reckoned what to do in the worst possible circumstances, when better arise, as they may, life becomes child's play."
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    Baned This ghoul has seen it all
    Crni Vuk's Avatar
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    and thats pretty realistic from how you describe it particularly when you dont have a company with the resources behind it like Bethesda or something similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by cratchety ol joe
    Just wondered if anyone here was a JA2 fan.... (and isn't a resident @ the Bear Pit) hope this is imformative at least!
    Heh, I dont even remember how many times I killed Deidrana

    Awesome game ! Someo f the best Tournbased combat has to offer, both JA1 and JA2

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    Saw it right on the first day and decided to not care anymore about this game. Jagged Alliance is dead, so it's just not worth to rage about it.

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    Comes and goes... Half-way Through My Half-life
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crni Vuk
    Awesome game ! Someo f the best Tournbased combat has to offer
    +1!

    JA2 is still the most 'playable' game to me. To this day, I get a good feeling when I play that game - from the beginning, with one poor merc, to the end, with a squad of professional ass-kickers. Tactical map, training militia and combat are equally enjoyable.

    The only thing I didn't like much was searching the bland environments after combat. I hoped the new JA would take care of that by doing essentially the same as JA2, just nicer graphics.

    This new fight system sounds jokes

  9. #9
    I should set a custom title Still Mildly Glowing

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    There goes another one. i'm actually surprised they did not turn it into a FPS.

    *sigh*

    I wonder what developers will do, once all the old franchises are raped. Come up with own stuff? Hard to imagine.

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    I should set a custom title So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

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    I think they should pull the camera closer to the action, like maybe used 3rd person.

    And put in some waist high walls to provide some sort of "cover system".

    And maybe some chainsaw guns and quicktime events.

    :sigh:

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    To compensate the lack of turn based combat, they could add a ADRENALINE mode, which uses action points. This mode let's you target bodyparts of the enemies. It's kind of like turn based combat, just cooler and more immersive.

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    I should set a custom title Look, Ma! Two Heads!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexx
    To compensate the lack of turn based combat, they could add a ADRENALINE mode, which uses action points. This mode let's you target bodyparts of the enemies. It's kind of like turn based combat, just cooler and more immersive.
    With slow motion and exploding body parts.
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  13. #13
    I should set a custom title Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

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    Since this hasn't been posted here yet I thought I'd add it in:
    Dear Community,

    We knew when we announced our intention to modernize the combat system in JA2:R that we would spark off a heated discussion. However, we are shocked at the way this discussion is being conducted in the forums. It is extremely useful for us to hear the honest opinions of all the members of the forum, but personal insults, slander and abuse have no place in this forum and are totally unacceptable. Our aim was and is to engage in an objective and mutually respectful discussion. We are ready to listen to all proposals, wishes and complaints, but we would ask you for objective comments, even though the subject has clearly aroused some strong emotions in certain forum participants.

    We have of course been thinking long and hard of how to optimize the combat system. With a new edition of such a closely monitored and universally loved title as this, we would not satisfy the players’ demands were we to merely change the graphics while ignoring the other aspects of the game.

    Our objective was and is to modernize both the both the look and feel of the game to live up to the expectations of a contemporary title. With this in mind, we have of course also scrutinized the combat system to assess how here too we can produce an up-to-date adaptation and version. This has not happened without first having an intense exchange of opinion with fans and enthusiasts of the genre. In this respect, we have also looked closely at the later developments in classic games such as the Fallout series for example. As opinions differ wildly, we regret we won’t be able to please everyone. However, we believe the changes to the combat system will make the gameplay much more accessible, intuitive and up-to-date, while retaining the elements that have marked out JA2 as special.

    We assume you would like your input to have some influence on the development of JA2:R and are still keen to receive your support in the form of constructive and objective contributions and comments. Once the new combat system has been reworked, we will give forum members the opportunity to test the game flow. More info to follow shortly.

    Best wishes until then
    They are using Fallout 3 to justify what they're doing with the delusion that they could be anywhere near as successful with a remake.

    "Pessimism is, in brief, playing the sure game. You cannot lose at it; you may gain. It is the only view of life in which you can never be disappointed. Having reckoned what to do in the worst possible circumstances, when better arise, as they may, life becomes child's play."
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    "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
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    Super Moderator Lived Through the Heat Death
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    So then I use Fallout 3 to justify that Jagged Alliance should become a first person shooter.

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    I should set a custom title Venerable Relic of the Wastes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arden
    I wonder what developers will do, once all the old franchises are raped. Come up with own stuff? Hard to imagine.
    I doubt they will create anything new, they will most likely look at what Indie games are doing well, buy those games' rights and change them to make them more appealing to mainstream gamers.

    There should indeed be a law against this blunt changing of classic games and their gameplay.

    If Karma did really exist these uncreative people would have long lost their jobs as game designers.
    Would serve them right too, leeching of the work done by better minds.

    _________________

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    Super Moderator Lived Through the Heat Death
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    Well, after all classic / old franchises are raped, they could start raping them again. Like they do with movies.

  17. #17
    I should set a custom title Venerable Relic of the Wastes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexx
    Well, after all classic / old franchises are raped, they could start raping them again. Like they do with movies.
    Re-imagining them, Prequels, From another view point, What if's...

    Damm it, we are f****** doomed!

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    I should set a custom title Still Mildly Glowing

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    "Accesible" fuck yeah!

    How i start to hate that word. Toning down everything until every last retard with the attention span and intelligence of a friggin tired mosquito suffering from terminal braincancer has acces to it. If in 20 years some aliens show up, they will only find a bunch of gibbering idiots on this planet. One of them wearing a suit selling two-piece puzzles, downers and some accesible shitgames to the rest.

    Bad enough what they did to Fallout, now its even used as a fucking excuse to retardize other stuff.

  19. #19
    Baned This ghoul has seen it all
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncannyGarlic
    ...
    The thing is, it seems the developers have already made up their mind and they are determinetd of making a "modern" version of JA.

    So its somewhat pointless talking with them about it on their forum in my eyes as even if you present them the best possible arguments and facts they still will simply come up with "its not modern and just tedius" cause they have the impression a game needs fast action to be a game that sells well.

    But you can not compare that way as tourn-based gameplay is trying to achieve a certain experience. A experience real time or "half real time" or real time with pause will never ever be able to deliver. That would be like asking for a motor cross bike that gives you the experience of a mountainbike obviously the bike with the engine is faster and a completely different experience but do people ever consider that exactly cause the mountainbike has NO engine that this is the experience the users are searching for ?

    I love tournbased personaly for a very simple reason. It is slow not tedius. It offers tactical choices a real time game just cant. I liked Baldurs Gate but I dont prefer this gameplay to JAs true tourn based combat which had a world and gameplay build around the tourn based combat. Finding ways, senaking past enemy lines or trying to fight them from your defensive position. I cant imagine all that with a real time gameplay. Not without ending somewhat in chaotic gameplay.

    By the way the REAL way how to modernise tourn based gameplay was shown by Silent Storm which has it improved in a way that is logic.

  20. #20
    I should set a custom title Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

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    Hey, look what I found:
    Predict the next franchise to be rehashed

    Quote Originally Posted by Arden on that thread
    Based on the games listed by guilty the locical next step would be jagged alliance (2). Because i think out there is someone hell bent on the idea to fuck up old, good franchises.
    Does Arden get some kind of prize?

    EDIT: Oh, and turn-based games can't be appealing really, that's why Frozen Synapse isn't getting lots of preorders.

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