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Thread: Vladmir Putin

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    Vladmir Putin

    So boys and girls, what's your opinion regarding the Russian overlord?

    He receives a lot of criticism in the Western media: Georgia, human rights, Syria, sabre rattling, vote rigging etc. What doesn't get mentioned is the strong stabilising effect he's had on Russia, pretty impressive economic growth, a renewed sense of national pride (for many Russians) and considerable increases in living standards for most Russians under his leadership.

    Thoughts?
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    He's just a midget, that's about it. He stole lots of money and all the power, then divided it in between his friends and other people he knew or met.

    You can't say he did any nice because it was only the people around him that did. There were quite a few good, uncorrupted people back when he started running the country, but they had to leave, you know, not to join this government corruption machine and all. Now they're in the opposition or sitting in jail.

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    Yet the effect of corruption, on Russia as a whole, seems to be substantially less under Putin than Yeltsin. I'm not saying the respective sets of politicians are entirely responsible for this, even so it seems to me that Putin (or those in power with him) have done a great deal in transforming Russia from an oligarch heavy wild east into a stable state.

    I'm inclined to believe Putin is corrupt; he has a vast fortune that he didn't acquire by transparent means. I'm also inclined to believe that he's a very popular leader within Russia. That said, i'd like to see Gary Kasparov at the helm
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    I can't argue that yes, it was much more crazy back in the early 90s with all the mobs, but you've got to take in other factors. A whole 70 year old Union fell apart, after all, and people had absolutely no idea about finances or economics or business (it was all banned, after all). Robbing people with guns, however, did not require any particular knowledge.

    The country was stabilizing even towards the end of Yeltsin's rule (when not he but his wife and daughter were ruling, but still), as I clearly don't remember any gang-banging or people with Kalashnikovs back then.

    As for Gary Kasparov, sure, but I think Navalny is a better option... Maybe he could fit Gary somewhere in between there, though

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    I recently saw a documentary about a Putin "youth movement".
    I find it shocking how these teenagers and young adults are apparently above the law and can bully police, beat political adversaries and even make arrests.

    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/u...011/episode-15

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    Quote Originally Posted by PainlessDocM
    I recently saw a documentary about a Putin "youth movement".
    I find it shocking how these teenagers and young adults are apparently above the law and can bully police, beat political adversaries and even make arrests.

    http://www.channel4.com/programmes/u...011/episode-15
    Putin-Jugend

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    More likely Пу́тсомол

    Also, unless you breathe, eat and live Russian sociopolitics, I'd take any "opinion" of Putin with a grain of salt. Or salt 2.

    Seriously, if I don't know shit, my opinion still stink. How come?

    That said, at least he does judo. That alone makes him heaps cooler than other heads of state

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    Also, unless you breathe, eat and live Russian sociopolitics, I'd take any "opinion" of Putin with a grain of salt. Or salt 2.
    I appreciate that, which is the main reason I don't have a solid opinion on him. Have to start somewhere though, and a forum with a fair-few Russian members seemed as good a place as any to learn more.
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    My opinion of Putin is


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silencer
    Also, unless you breathe, eat and live Russian sociopolitics, I'd take any "opinion" of Putin with a grain of salt. Or salt 2.
    I live, eat and breathe Russian sociopolitics, but I have never been able to compartmentalize and then present my thoughts on Putin. I've written some uni papers on some of his politics but his era has never been the focus of my studies.

    I gotta say, though, the easiest thing to underestimate is where his value came from in the Russian perspective. Jeltsin was not only embarrassing, he was incompetent, the neo-liberalism was a failure, and the massive fraud that fleshed out the oligarch clique in the 1996 elections nothing short of a national catastrophe. By comparison, the time since has been stable, profitable, just good on average. There's a lot people can put up with in politics if the trade-off is beneficial. Both for people "in general" (though it's a mixed bag) and in regaining pride in Russia and international respect for Russia lost under Jeltsin.

    That's why Putin and Medvedev's collapse in popularity is not that surprising. It has little to do with political freedoms, as glorious as that sounds, and more to do with their perceived failures handling the economic crises during Medvedev's reign. Once his popularity started wobbling there, the Russian people no longer putting up with electoral fraud and blatant idiocy was inevitable. I don't know how much longer they can keep it up, either. I know a lot of people are disappointed there were no instantaneous "color revolution" answers, but in a lot of ways a gradual process is preferable. Anyone who doesn't think it will matter that Putin's regime has lost a significant amount of legitimacy over the past two elections is just kidding themselves. Change will continue to brew.

    Commonly misunderstood points in the West:

    The Oligarchs in general, and Khodorkovsky specifically. When Putin came into power, a bunch of powerful positions were staffed by oligarchs who bought in during the electoral fraud of the mid-90s. He wanted them out. He told them they could keep their money, but they would stay out of politics or he would bring down the hammer. Khodorkovsky, for reasons beyond me, decided a few years later to forget about this deal and try to get involved into politics. Now, opposition is good, but it shouldn't come from the likes of Khodorkovsky, thieves, gangsters, murderers all. Putin was right to clear them out of politics, Khodorkovsky was insane to rock the boat, and not the poor hero he is portrayed as here.

    Georgia. Is iffy. The Georgian conflict was at least as much about that war-mongering idiot Saakashvili as it was about Putin. People forget Georgia did try a kind of genocidal push to clear out or dominate the regions of south-Ossetia and Abkhazia and the early 90s, and there's a good reason Russia was there, to protect them. Saakashvili decided he had enough international support to try and provoke Russia. He didn't, and he fell flat on his face because of it. The reporting here on the conflict was weird, especially since news channels barely discussed the background of the regional conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother None
    Jeltsin was not only embarrassing, he was incompetent, the neo-liberalism was a failure, and the massive fraud that fleshed out the oligarch clique in the 1996 elections nothing short of a national catastrophe.
    And what would be the alternative? Zuganov and his communist bunch? I don't like the oligarch autocracy but communism is far worse down the road. I mean, I don't approve of Jeltsin but let's be clear - he wasn't entirely a fool. Most of these projects were made by people within his party reach but not him immediately. It's not like they were geniuses or had much experience in running a free market country anyways.

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    But if you set out to lose money it's less embarrassing when the time comes.

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    Re: Vladmir Putin

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshi525
    So boys and girls, what's your opinion regarding the Russian overlord?
    The faster he goes away. The better for Russia.

    Though on the other side ... its not like there are better options anyway. I really hope Russia will achieve a democracy one day. Their people deserve it.




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    If you want know why Putin are so pop in Russia you have to know the backstory of the countries the grew up in.

    Compared to American sham democracy, the Russian one are definably the most honest one. which play out sociologically like this:
    in America past 20 years, the people fundamentally believe that they saved the world in ww2, they are lead to believe in nonsense in all levels in the education industry. USA style imperialism are showing cracks and wearing thin, since the compiling of political hubris and mistakes. Inside USA they seems to be mostly uninformed, in what goes on in realpolitiks and what passes fore real news.

    in Russia it goes like this: We know they lie, and Putin generally make things better. They still have excellent education, a legacy from the soviet era. The news is generally slated and how has the money decides the news.

    Putin is not the cartoon villain, most in the west make him out to be. He thrown out the worst elements in the system and Russia was better off it. (wont go more on this since "Brother none" made a excellent piece)

    Nato is great military turkey, everyone knows it and now the Libya conflict proved it decisively so. Putin just has to wait until it dies, the problem is what happens when it dies as organization.

    The Georgian war, image that you have the mightiest country the only super power left in the world. There is a guy in that country which His divine shadow can be used as synonym in other words Dick Cheney. This guy tells you can do all sorts of things to piss off Russia, until Georgia attacked people which had russian statemembership. The idiot Sakashvili, got the bad stick and wondered were his good friend Dick were.

    The next test fore Putin is Iran. Iran is a strategic partner of Russia, (means that they have oil) if they go down and replaced by western friendly regime or goes strait puppet after the "humanitarian relife effort" ala Libya. If Iran goes it means that they do some mayor shift geopolitical, it will create enormous disastrous distortions inside Russia it self (same with china). He has already roiled the dice in Syria by Putting the Russian navy there.

    my opinion is that Putin has putt the country on the right track, he has lots of corruption to clean out in his own ranks. He cleaned out the corruption in the police nicely by just giving them a living wage.

    Edit: I do not say he best president ever, or do not profit from corruption. but from the choices the Russian people has, he seems like a golden turd.
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    honest democracy.

    Well I would not go so far to say that the US (or any other nation) is better or worse. But I would not really call the system in Russia a democracy. Just as I would not call China communistic.




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    Re: Vladmir Putin

    Quote Originally Posted by Crni Vuk
    I really hope Russia will achieve a democracy one day. Their people deserve it.
    Yes true democracy will solve all their problems.

    I'm really suprised to hear that from you crni. I know i'm relatively new to this board but by reading some of your previous posts i got the impression that you are a pretty smart guy who has his feet firmly on the ground. Suerly you see that a democratic system brings more problems then it solves and that it only works in theory.

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    Re: Vladmir Putin

    Quote Originally Posted by donperkan
    Quote Originally Posted by Crni Vuk
    I really hope Russia will achieve a democracy one day. Their people deserve it.
    Yes true democracy will solve all their problems.

    I'm really suprised to hear that from you crni. I know i'm relatively new to this board but by reading some of your previous posts i got the impression that you are a pretty smart guy who has his feet firmly on the ground. Suerly you see that a democratic system brings more problems then it solves and that it only works in theory.
    Really? Only works in theory? Because it seems to work a hell of a lot better than the alternatives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by incognito
    If you want know why Putin are so pop in Russia you have to know the backstory of the countries the grew up in.
    Yeah. The Union carved out laziness and alcoholics in the nation, add the Zombie TV that the old people watch all day. Spread the rumors and vote for Putin, who was seen boarding a jet and a submarine. Hero! Let's support this guy as president.

    my opinion is that Putin has putt the country on the right track, he has lots of corruption to clean out in his own ranks. He cleaned out the corruption in the police nicely by just giving them a living wage.
    Wow, that's the most ignorant and yet hilarious thing that I have heard in quite a while. Seriously? He cleaned corruption out of his ranks? You do realize that even giving the most recent example, votes of 2012, he is corrupt himself? Seriously, pal, I have my own example I could give you that corruption is far from being cleaned out.
    Oh, and don't give me the 'cleaned out corruption in the police'. It's just as bad as it always was. The only difference is that before the mafia wore Adidas suits, now it's the police uniform - traditions stayed the same. They take bribes like there's no tomorrow, outside that abuse the power they had been given (not entirely relevant here, but still) horribly - killing and robbing people with practically no reason.

    but from the choices the Russian people has, he seems like a golden turd.
    Oh, there are a lot of choices. One fine one that's in the government now would be Prochorov, another that's in the opposition is Navalny. Navalny especially because he's been fighting for democracy and honest votes for years, already did time in jail a few times, yet managed to gather crowds of people to protest. Hell, there are a lot, a lot of other choices out there who could all be given the top spots and manage perfectly.

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    Yeah. The Union carved out laziness and alcoholics in the nation, add the Zombie TV that the old people watch all day. Spread the rumors and vote for Putin, who was seen boarding a jet and a submarine. Hero! Let's support this guy as president.
    well i am certainly not supporting Putin or what he stand fore, i am merely pointing he is one cleaned up Russia. I do mean to be rude, but your point was lost in the sarcasm, lest to me.

    Wow, that's the most ignorant and yet hilarious thing that I have heard in quite a while. Seriously?... sinp
    i think you have to reread the statement, since i said " he has lots of corruption to clean out in his own ranks." It is impossible to clean out all the corruption, so what you are saying is to bend over and join pax amricana?

    Btw the police in Russia, do people in still rent a cop ride on trains or go to the stores. Do the mafia have half the police force under there control.

    Are you really suggesting Mikhail Prokhorov, forever associated with Yeltsin and the neo iberals?

    I agree on Alexey Navalny, he seem like good guy. He supports critic of the state and on it leader.

    Most of the other parties are quite literary batshit crazy, if you lock at there party program.

    I just want to point out i find the critique in the west, the make out of Russia and Putin is actually nonsense fore the most part. And in some cases it is sad irony. Lets take the good old USA they hold elections every 4 years were they choose between 2 guys from each side that has been chosen before hand, now that is democracy.

    In Italy and Grease the government has been replaced by former bank employees, completely overruling the will of the people in those lands fore the benefit of EU banks. I do not think that is democracy.

    Even in Norway there is huge scandal unraveling in the top department, where a leader is found out giving out money to his friends. Not to mention the regime there broke the constitution to go to war white Libya, how corrupt is that.

    going strait to ad hominem is never good idea.
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