Caesar's Legion - Rampant with Misogyny & Homosexual Males

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by The Man From Nowhere, Oct 29, 2017.

  1. The Man From Nowhere

    The Man From Nowhere First time out of the vault

    Oct 28, 2017
    The Legion as we're shown in New Vegas are vehemently misogynist and see males as superior and consider women only for breeding, and throughout The Fort you see women just as slaves.

    You'd expect a wasteland leader of Caesar's stature to have assembled a harem of sorts. Mr. House has Robot Jane. The King has his groupies. Yet what do you find in Caesar's tent? Nothing but men.

    His relationship with Arcade if the latter is sold out by The Courier and commits suicide. Caesar is said to have been "fond" of him and even mourned him for months. Life means little to Caesar - yet the death of Arcade moved him.

    A male Courier with Confirmed Bachelor who hints at their sexuality when Cass shoots down any potential flirting actually elicits the response of the Courier having a "Legion point of view", alluding that Legion is thought to have rampant homosexuality. Veronica also makes a quip about how they all mount each other.

    The historical Caesar had certain mystery around his sexuality, his political enemies stating that he had a relationship with the King of Nicomedia and his engineer. It's something for Edward Sallow to relate to in the great man if he himself is closeted and perhaps even self-loathing homosexual (If the player has a chat with a Westside prostitute, Jimmy, he'll explain homosexuality is punished by death from Caesar). There's probably some sort of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" thing going on where things are going behind closed quarters and expected to remain so.

    Throw in Roman culture itself where it wasn't so much about homosexuality that was taboo as it was a dominance thing and being the "receiving" and/or effete male was looked down on.


    The Legion over glorifies males & warrior culture and degrades femininity and the roles of women completely and latent with homosexuality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  2. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Caesar doesn't allow homosexuality, the game tells us that:
     
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  3. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish ...I Remember...

    Sep 11, 2010
    Is it homosexuality in Legion or homosexuality in Legion controlled regions though?
    There's a difference between those in the Legion and those living under the Legion.
     
  4. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    So?
    I mean, what's the point of this thread? None of this is a mystery or hidden information in the game and you kinda forgot to provide any starting points for a proper discussion.
    Yeah, the Legion degrades women. Turns out they're not the nice guys. Who knew?

    Also, moved to NV section.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  5. mithrap

    mithrap Ring a ding-ding, baby

    May 17, 2016
    I'd suggest downloading and using the mod "Velius" from Kris Takahashi (who made Interesting NPCs for Skyrim). It adds a deserter from the Legion as companion, who is quite interesting since he's been forced to run away, but is still loyal to Caesar. He talks quite a bit about the subject of misogyny and homosexuality within the ranks of the legion (it's actually a central theme for his character from what I've seen of it), and the dialogues sound pretty lore friendly, unlike for 99% of companion mods out there. He even "explains" why he supports the horrible treatment of women (long story short, something along the lines of "we need more men and women have the power to give birth.")
    Cannot be found on the nexus though, it's on the mod author's blog.
     
  6. Danuis

    Danuis Still Mildly Glowing

    Jul 6, 2016
    Typically a discussion post ends with something to spark off some discussion, not a statement of fact.

    Yes, the legion keeps women down and breeds them to churn out more boys to militarize or more girls to breed.

    Something that might be gleaned from this is that the Legion doesn't trust their provincials? Their subjects. For the sake of clarification, yes, everyone in the Legion is technically a slave to Caesar, but there is obviously in practice a specialized population that engages in war...and just war. That population is formed from the tribes, as far as could be told, and not the settled folk, and its not like Legion turf isn't desolate.

    This could be just another Roman mimicry - the distinction between Roman and Latin and so on. As tribes are often no bigger than a century's worth of men and the same amount of women along with children and elders, this cultural aspect that Caesar impresses on them means that to expand they either take more tribes or rape-breed the women of the tribe to bear more troops. And Caesar has done this for at least a generation. It becomes a cycle.

    All because some nerd wanted to 'shape the world as they saw it'.
     
  7. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    I think homosexuality is something NCR sneers at, so they throw the idea Caesar's Legion is gay at them.

    When Caesar's Legion is actually pathologically homicidally homophobic.

    It's basically what happens with a lot of people who hate homophobes get called out as secretly gay themselves.
     
  8. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Still Mildly Glowing

    Dec 6, 2016
    That.

    And by the way, Caesar is saddened by the death of Arcade (a gay character) not because they were lovers but because Arcade was an equal intellectually. There's no one else like that in the Legion.
     
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  9. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Caesar is a raging hypocrite as he doesn't believe any of his cult/culture. It's just a tool to control.
     
  10. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    That still doesn't invalidate what Cobra Commander said though.

    After I saw that ending about Arcade killing himself and Caesar's reaction, I got the exact feeling that what happened was what Cobra Commander said, and not because Caesar was homosexual and loved (in a romantic way) Arcade.
     
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  11. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    I'm just saying the law applies to Caesar and his favorites as he decides.
     
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  12. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Still, why would he penalize homosexuality with death if he was homosexual? Specially since Caesar based many of his Legion on Ancient Roman concepts, and Ancient Rome did encouraged homosexual relationships in their army.

    Also the game allows the player to use the "sexual preference" perks when a NPC can be affected (for example, using the Confirmed Bachelor in dialogue when talking to a gay male character). But we can't use that perk with Caesar. If the game wanted to point out how Caesar was homosexual, I doubt it would miss that opportunity.
     
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  13. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    That's part of what I actually like about Arcade as he is a ancient Rome aficionado himself and mentions Caesar's Rome is a poor man's cover band. He doesn't go into it but does the appropriate, "So where are the aqueducts, roads, and more?" Caesar has taken elements of Rome but he's discarded others.

    I'm actually not a guy who thinks Caesar is homosexual but he doesn't display any heterosexuality either. In a society full of sex slaves and ritualized abuse, Caesar shows no sign of partaking himself. You can't seduce Caesar as a female courier either.
     
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  14. Risewild

    Risewild Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    That's because Caesar himself is not evil. He does not take pleasure on evil acts. He considers them a necessary evil until he achieves his objective of unifying humanity into his empire.
    He is also old (IIRC he is more than 50 years old), has to rule over his "fanatics empire" with an iron fist, can't show weakness while suffering from a deadly brain tumor (that gives him extreme pain, but he hides it), etc. I don't think he would be in a mood for sexual encounters. Also it would be a terrible security risk, having a slave alone with him when he wouldn't be wearing armor.
    A female courier rarely flirts with any male characters in the game, while a homosexual character seems to always have a use for the perks when talking to another homosexual character of the same gender. That is why I would assume if Caesar was gay, it would be present.

    This is not to debate with you in particular about if Caesar is homosexual or not though. It is just to point out that I don't think most people in his situation with all of these factors would be interested in sex at that moment, maybe after he achieves his goals or something. :nod:
     
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  15. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    To be entirely fair, a lot of the gay characters in-game are only actually known by the fanbase to be gay because you can flirt with them.

    There could be hundreds more that were written to be gay, but we never actually found out about.

    Also: Veronica can't be charmed with Cherchez La Femme.
     
  16. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Evil is a value judgement and the fact a man creates a baby blood fountain but does not drink from it does not in any way shape or form make him morally less culpable than the people involved. That's also not accurate as Caesar may not partake in sexual indulgences he does engage in enjoying gladiator fights.

    That seems more poor writing than a sign of actuality.

    Honestly, speaking given he finds time to be worshiped as an actual god, I disagree but to each their own.
     
  17. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    I mean, he doesn't need to spend actual time being worshipped as a God. Caesar could be doing administrative duties, or coming up with battle strategies while his Legionaries worship him.
     
  18. Danuis

    Danuis Still Mildly Glowing

    Jul 6, 2016
    The idea that Legion = Rome and thus Rome = gay and thus Legion = gay being outright NCR propaganda would make sense, especially Kimball's Macho NCR. The gay prostitute in Westside attests that he was a legion slave and his centurion was with him but it got dicey because the legion doesn't tolerate homosexuality in its ranks.

    Also, Rome did not outright encourage homosexuality amongst its men; especially not by the time of the Empire; that sounds more like Grome emerging from Thebes. They didn't outright ban it, but there was a stringent culture around it, far from encouragement.

    Thus the NCR would be the barely-tolerant faction with CL being somewhere a bit beyond that. It may be that Centurions are held to a higher regard, or it might be an outright full ban, but there's something amiss there.