How come Fallout 1 and 2 aren't more popular when New Vegas is?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by TheHouseAlwaysWins, May 27, 2018.

  1. TerminallyChill

    TerminallyChill Be excellent to each other.

    Feb 16, 2018
    Very good point, it does seem like there has been a homogenization when it comes to AAA video game genres. Unfortunately this is what happens when suits and ties call the shots instead of a game's creative director. Every new release has to emulate at least one feature from a title that made its publisher a shitload of money in the past. That's why we get cinematic, open world first person shooters with crafting instead of fucking Fallout these days. That's what executives who don't play video games want to see.
     
  2. The Doctor

    The Doctor Veteran of The Divide

    Jun 6, 2015
    The early games have their own charm, but there's a little bit of messing around to get used to them. Once you overcome that hurdle, they're pretty solid titles.

    I like them more for the story/lore than gameplay.
     
  3. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Define 'gameplay'. Is it just the combat, or is it also includes stuff like character creation and progress, stats and skills checks (whether it's on dialogue or not), and stuff like freeform interactivity (where you can, for instance, manually right-clicking a broken elevator, choose the 'Item' icon, then choose 'Rope')?
     
  4. The Doctor

    The Doctor Veteran of The Divide

    Jun 6, 2015
    Yeah, there's that aspect that stumps a lot of people trying to get into isometric games. Way too many steps to get to the solution.
     
  5. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    I disagree. It might seems like way too many steps to do what you're supposed to do, but it give players more freedom and agency to solve the problems being presented at hands. I can't recall if there's any moment in 3/NV where you can solve problems on your own, there might be some, but what I remember from them is mostly getting pop-ups telling me what is the problem, what I need to solve the problem, and once I got what I need the game takes over from there.
    Call me old fashioned, but I highly prefer manually solving problems by myself a la Fallout 1 and 2, instead of getting pop-ups and the game takes over after some point every now and then.
     
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  6. The Doctor

    The Doctor Veteran of The Divide

    Jun 6, 2015
    Yeah, 3/NV pretty much have a "How do you want to solve this?" and lets you use various skills to pull it off, like being able to perform Brain Surgery successfully with low INT and high LUCK

    "How did you do that?"
    "I have no idea."
     
  7. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Yes, but the format on which this is presented is, to me, kinda restrictive. Again, pop-ups telling me stuff pop into mind (pardon the pun).
     
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  8. Carmelita Fox

    Carmelita Fox First time out of the vault

    Jun 7, 2018
    Having played all Fallouts after turning 20, they are all pretty distinct and I enjoy different aspects of them.

    Fallout has its eerie atmosphere and the absolute feeling of being lost in something new that captivates me. I started with F2, so the mechanics were not a problem, but the ticking timer and absence of knowledge put some pressure on me. World design and levels are top-notch, with locations carefully placed on the way to known objectives (Shady Sands while hiking over to Vault 15) and their problems being relatable and appealing. You really have to choose whether to press on in pursuit of the Water Chip or stay for a few days and help the community in exchange for gear and experience. Later on it features my favourite location ever, the Glow, and also my favourite antagonist, the Master. Overall, the story and dark atmosphere really set it apart from the rest.

    Fallout 2 has a huge world with tons of quests and way more possibilities to do stuff and have good fun. Want to become an unstoppable juggernaut of death? Sure. A sex-addicted alcoholic who banged every prostitute in New Reno? Go ahead. A smooth-talking snake who can convince anyone? No problem. But probably my favourite feature, given my autistic desire to just do everything the game has to offer at once is the possibility to create a character who can complete every quest in the game while being good in combat. It's oddly satisfying to see all those journal entries completed and sseing your impact on the communities in the final slides. Because of this, Fallout 2 is my ultimate power fantasy where you can have the most direct impact on the world.

    New Vegas also lets you decide fates of others, but you're limited to supporting certain factions and thus have to accept the fact that you cannot control everything. It's a more complex moral choice for sure, but I prefer the raw power fantasy of Fallout 2 and the more predictable outcome of my actions.
    What NV does best though is narrative design and character balance. The faction system is superior to everything prior to it, adding moral ambiguity to the equation and making you consider the good and the bad sides of whomever you choose to support. Character balance is important to me personally as it adds a new dimension of replayability by making virtually every build viable and adding skill checks in dialogue to support it. Unlike the first two games there are no real dump stats or skills except for Charisma, which I with would be featured in dialogue at least a bit interchangeably with speech. The build variability is supported by the sheer amount of weapons for every taste and interesting perks to enhance your strong sides. The only downside I can really think of is the fact that you probably end up with 100 in all skills by the end of the game, which somewhat ruins the roleplaying by making you good at everything and negating the impact of your choice, so I would somewhat limit the amount of points you get overall.

    In conclusion I would probably choose Fallout 2 as my overall favourite for its quests and the power fantasy aspects. I'm not really bothered by the UI or inventory management and love the overall design of the game, so picking it up once every few months is a must for me. New Vegas is a close second with its amount of content and narrative, but takes longer to complete and can feel a bit tedious at times. Finally, Fallout 1 is pretty small compared to the rest and I would choose it last, but the story and atmosphere make for an awesome playthrough every time.
     
  9. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Go play Fallout 1.5: Resurrection and Fallout of Nevada total conversion mods for Fallout 2, mate.
     
  10. Carmelita Fox

    Carmelita Fox First time out of the vault

    Jun 7, 2018
    I've played through Resurrection twice already and tried a bit of Nevada, but found it someshat unintuitive. Will give it another go soon, maybe on normal difficulty so I don't lack skill points and can memorize quests and items better.

    Resurrection has a cool story idea and some nice quests, but they somewhat overdid it with the combat difficulty in the early game. I'm not a fan of postponing quests on a location for later just because I'm unable to kill the enemies in a gunfight and there's no alternative way to deal with them.
     
  11. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    What's unintuitive about them? Maybe we can help. Just holler us at 1.5 and Nevada thread, respectively.

    Also, if what you meant by Resurrection overdoing the combat difficulty is the initial ghoul encounter, remember the good ol' flight response that's just as valid in the official games. Not need to stood by and try tackling on a difficult encounter, just run and run.
     
  12. Carmelita Fox

    Carmelita Fox First time out of the vault

    Jun 7, 2018
    No, the ghouls being overpowered makes sense story-wise, I mean quest stuff like killing Ramirez for the ghouls, the attack on the caravan to Albuquerque or storming the palace are somewhat overdone. Fallout combat does not feature a disengagement mechanic, so once multiple enemies aggro on you, you'll definitely eat some lead even when running away from them.

    As for Nevada, I was playing it sparingly at the time and was put off by the fact that no one in the city would give me quests without having reputation, but I couldn't find where to get it. I'll definitely check out the forums on that, it was probably lack of attention and engagement on my part that caused the frustration :)
     
  13. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Oh, but I'd say most of those are high level oriented, somewhat end-game tier combat encounters. The attack on caravan to Albuquerque is random, though, you can get really lucky as to not encounter anything at all, or REALLY unlucky to encounter deathclaws; or worse, a ghoul patrol.
    You can lock some of the doors in Ramirez's bar, make chokepoints, separate the enemies and kill them one by one.
    Meanwhile, storming the palace was kinda straightforward, while the last battle can be done quickly by targeting and killing the leader.

    Yeah, I was initially frustrated by how the game was presented, but I'd say it's because you really, REALLY need to use your wits, and probably the fact that the translation wasn't near perfect for now. But once you get a hang of it, it hooked me so bad, I can't stop thinking about it.
     
  14. AeonG

    AeonG First time out of the vault

    Jun 12, 2016
    In my personal opinion as one of the newer generation people, it's because New Vegas is arguably the best game in the series. I started off with 3 in 2010, and hopped to New Vegas several months later to see why many people liked it more. After I got through the meh first part of the game where many Bethesda fans stopped, the game was just absolutely amazing.

    Then a couple years later I tried Fallout 1. I can attest that the barrier of entry is pretty high. After a couple years of ditched attempts to play the game, I finally did. I'm not sure I can say it was worth it because the game didn't age very well, and honestly I didn't have much fun until the very end of the game where everything I built my character up to do paid off and I cheesed the game to kill the master without too much problem. The only memorable things to me about that game are the concepts it laid out and the final boss.

    I can almost say the opposite of 2. While the first part of that game is a total fucking slog, it gets really good after Modoc assuming you didn't travel to Redding first. Most areas are actually interesting. Many of the companions actually feel like more than a recruit-able ally. They threw in a lot of silly humor to make the game not as depressing as the first one, but at the same time they put in things that were even darker than what was in 1. They added background noises that bring life to a dying world. Once you actually have a gun that's not total fucking garbage, then the game gets good. However, everything it did, New Vegas did better in my eyes, regardless of how incomplete the game was. Where in Fallout 2 can you get the same experience as talking to Caesar, or getting close to Boone, Arcade, Cass, or Raul? The choices you make in the game are even greater, and honestly the dialogue options are one of the most important things about that game to me. 2 doesn't have the same level of choice making.

    I think if some New Vegas fans read some instructions and skipped over 1, at the very least 2 would be much higher regarded than it is now.

    I believe this, because I honestly believe that when Bethesda made 3, they took most of their inspiration from Fallout 1. When Obsidian made New Vegas, I believe they took most inspiration from 2. The New Vegas and 2 are very similar in many ways, and I believe that Fallout 2 is the easiest of the original 2 games to play if you liked New Vegas.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018 at 4:07 PM
  15. Carmelita Fox

    Carmelita Fox First time out of the vault

    Jun 7, 2018
    I tried it in russian first since I speak it, but it just felt wrong to me after enjoying the classics in english
    Drill Sergeant Arch Dornan, YOU MOOOOROOOOON!
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018 at 4:17 PM
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  16. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Not really. There are many factors as to why New Vegas was held back badly compared to its predecessors. I would point out that [1.] the shit engine and shit overall gameplay mechanics that's inherited from Fallout 3, and [2.] the fact that the transition from Fallout 1 and 2's top-down isometric-oriented gameplay to 1st and 3rd person still couldn't compensate fpr the freeform interactivity that allows vast player agency and freedom on how to play the game that existed in the predecessors are the main reasons why. (I've already talked about what I meant with freeform interactivity few posts above) Mind you, I was just like you, as in I started the series with Fallout 3, and it was pretty late in 2015, and still I highly preferred the gameplay of Fallout 1 and 2.

    Having said that, when it comes to quest design, narrative design, and overall story and lore, and how it provide content in regards to character's stats and skills, New Vegas is a worthy successor to the originals, and even surpassed Fallout 2 in regards of keeping the spirit of Fallout 1.

    What do you mean with it not aging very well? Is it that it doesn't run very well in your computer, or is that there are better turn-based RPGs out there, particularly when compared to RPGs of this day and age? Because if it's the latter, then I agree with you; Age of Decadence and Underrail are both cRPGs released in 2015 that has much, much better turn-based combat gameplay mechanics compared to Fallout 1 and 2.

    However, the fact that Fallout has that freeform interactivity, and up until now there are no RPGs at all that even try to replicate that gameplay features, I still pretty much preferred to replay Fallout 1 and 2, especially its TC mods like Fallout 1.5: Resurrection and Fallout of Nevada, over and over again.

    If you think this is all good, it's on the contrary fpr me. I think that they should've kept the spirit of Fallout 1's extreme focus on the tone, atmosphere, and execution. Fallout 2 felt like there were a lot of disconnection between one content and another. Not as bad as Bethesda's Fallouts, but still.... and the fact that the game wasn't as focused as Fallout 1 was attributed to the fact that the development of the game wasn't as coherent as when they developed Fallout 1. This was confirmed by Chris Avellone at RPG Codex, btw, and you can even look up that Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky, and Jason Anderson, who were the main heads of Fallout 1's development, all left halfway through the development of Fallout 2.

    Well, Sergeant Arch Dornan as mentioned by Carmelita Fox above? Also, First Citizen Lynette, Marcus, Sulik, Myron, that scientist guy or whoever at the Oil Rig with whom you can have discussion with whether or not it's morally acceptable to just wipe out the entire population of wastelander. I don't think it's right to compare 2 and NV in this regard, however, because 2 literally have less talking heads than 1, despite the fact that 2 is literally the bigger game. You can say that the thing about New Vegas is that every NPCs have talking heads, but I will point out that since the game has full voice acting, it also means the text count has to be drastically reduced so it can be accommodated within the reasonable budget provided.

    And I disagree that 2 have less choice making. Have you tried replaying Fallout 2? Because the thing about 1 and 2, is that they don't show you stats and skills checks in dialogue, UNLESS you reached the threshold, or close to it. Meanwhile, New Vegas immediately showed you ALL of the possible stats and skills checks, which gives the impression that the choice in this game is 'even greater'. Granted, the game also changes the failed checks line, I think it's a mistake in their part to just show you every possible dialogue checks you can attempt in this game.

    That is an interesting theory, but a weak one, I'd say. Bethesda wasn't 'inspired' by Fallout 1, nor did they took most of it from Fallout 1. What they did is a complete rehashing of the first two games, because as you can see, all the elements across the originals were there. Water 'problems', FEV, Super Mutants, Armored Vault Jumpsuit, The Brotherhood of Steel, The Enclave, The GECK, Harold, Jets, etc etc.
    Meanwhile, Obsidian may seems like they took most of the inspiration from Fallout 2, because it's obviously the game they are making a sequel for. Obviously the new elements like the NCR will be present at large here, coupled with what remains of the Enclave, since New Vegas takes place directly at the timeline after Fallout 2. And I also wouldn't agree to the notion that New Vegas and 2 are similar in many ways. Sure, it has New Vegas that can be compared to New Reno, but it doesn't for example, have shit tons of pop-culture references and Easter Eggs that's present in the majority of Fallout 2's content, and there were much less wacky stuff like talking deathclaws, aliens, and ghost in New Vegas, so in that regard New Vegas was actually a much better sequel to Fallout 1 in keeping itself focused and coherent, through and through.

    And yeah, I agree that Fallout 2 is the easiest of the originals to play. There are a lot of QoL improvements it brings to the table, and many people would agree with you as evidenced by the fact that most of TC mods for the originals were made using Fallout 2's template instead of 1's. But I'd say you missed ALOT if you skip Fallout 1. How the game setup it's tone and atmosphere all the way from playing Maybe by the Ink Spots when you first launch it, and all the way to the confrontation with the Overseer, and finally the Vault Dweller's back turned to us as he walk away to the tune of Maybe playing once more.... it was one of my most favorite gaming moments of all time. Considering 1 is relatively much shorter than 2, it could've been a much more replayable game, if not for the fact that a lot of QoL improvements of 2 were missing in it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018 at 5:29 PM
  17. Carmelita Fox

    Carmelita Fox First time out of the vault

    Jun 7, 2018
    Well, I mentioned Dornan rather jokingly, but he's still very memorable and can be memed supremely.

    On a serious note, NV is unparalleled when it comes to companions and came out much later, so I find it somewhat unfair to compare their dialogue and stories to their F2 counterparts. With that said, Marcus and Sulik (with the RP installed) have engaging stories and quests which add to their persona. Some non-companion characters have comparably deep stories to tell, namely Harold, Richardson, Lynette, Wright and a few others, but I find the overall quality of F2 writing is at least on the same level as NV, if not higher. F2 has constantly engaging dialogue throughout all locations, while NV has an overall lower level with a few characters having great writing to make up for it.

    The point being made about skill and stat checks in dialogue is also very valid, as Lynette's dialogue practically doubles if you have enough speech to unlock the polite options. If you really wanted to know how extensive F2's really is, you'd have to use the save editor to give you a cheatbook or alter the stats manually.

    Also, while some NV dialogue is brilliant (Hegelian Dialectics), F2 just has the more memorable moments for me, namely Dornan's rant, trolling the Enclave officer from Poseidon Plant 5, Myron hitting on your female character and Harold telling his story.
     
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  18. TorontRayne

    TorontRayne Orderite of Chaos Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    This is my cousin essentially although he is computer savvy; his tastes and trends that he follows are all of his generation, namely MOBA, coop, online, cellphones - no slow paced, old school RPG stuff. I tried to get him to play Fallout 2 but he gave up at the Den.
     
  19. Cale

    Cale First time out of the vault

    Sunday
    Because generation z is the worst generation of all
     
  20. MPPlantOfficial

    MPPlantOfficial It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Aug 24, 2017
    Oh man. I was 9 or 10 when I first picked it out of the shelf after having finished Diablo 1. Imagine going from click spot, walk to spot, click this skeleton, hit skeleton to this. I mean Diablo 1 had you on a grid too so at least there was something familiar.

    I remember picking Max Stone for my 1st playthrough and having problems with combat thinking "wot are action points?" Then when I got perks I probably picked something stupid like Heave Ho and Nightvision.