I Admire the Purity of The Legion's Justice.

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by AureliusofPhoenix, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix Centurion

    Jun 25, 2018
    This is going to shock you. But I side with the Legion. And I know what you're saying; "you seem so friendly, why would you do that?" Well, sport, first of all shut the fuck up when I'm talking and secondly, because the title says it all. Because with that one dialogue option in New Vegas, I realized what I truly agreed with, and believed in, and found a faction that accepts some of those more draconic beliefs.

    Now, as a disclaimer, I, in no way, shape, or form condone slavery or non-sexual bondage. It's the Legion's reliance on slaves that causes my main issues with them. In the same way, it's my Roman ancestors' reliance on the same that makes me cringe sometimes when I think about it. But this thread isn't about slavery. It's about crucifixion.

    To start with, think about the Powder Gangers. Humans have been imprisoning humans for thousands of years. Even in the modern day, the issues with the penal system become more an more relevant. The goal is to rehabilitate; but what happens to a repeat offender who doesn't want to be rehabilitated? There are addicts who need help rather than prison, and rapists who need a bullet in the head; yet we throw all of them into the same cement box and call it a day. What does this have to do with the Powder Gangers? Well, everything. The Powder Gangers literally organized a prison break, murdered the prison staff, and went on a murder-rape-pillage spree across the Mojave. And when I walked into Nipton and heard Boxcars' story, talked to Vulpes and saw the Powder Gangers on the makeshift crosses, I realized that I agreed with the Legion's methods (in certain situations, but I'll get to that). The Powder Gangers and Nipton townfolk were a cancer on the face of the reforming civilization in the Mojave, hardened thugs and NCR turncoats who needed to be punished. They got what they had coming.

    Maybe that seems a little harsh. And I concede that perhaps it is. But sometimes people can't be reformed. Sometimes they're too far gone. And sometimes those unsalvageable-s can be used as an example. A lesson. Given the choice between Crassus and Spartacus, I side with Spartacus. But in the battle between the scum of the wasteland and the Legion? Well, my choice is made. When Crassus crucified the slaves in Spartacus' revolt along the Appian Way, it was for two reasons: 1) He probably got some sadistic pleasure from it and 2) to send a message to all those who would rebel that the Romans were on their third slave revolt and had had it with this shit already. That next time, there would be even less mercy than with Spartacus (and considering they'd shown no mercy in that situation, the message was pretty loud and clear).

    Do I think that the 15 year old pickpocket should be crucified? Of course not. I also kind of think that there were some people in Nipton who probably didn't deserve what they got. But in the Fallout Universe, the ends justify the means. In that post apocalyptic world, measures have to be taken to restore civilization, whatever the cost.

    (Please note that I don't support crucifixion or torture in our contemporary world; however, in the Fallout Universe, I simply admire the Legion's attempt to cull the herd of shitbags taking advantage of the powerless (while they admittedly do the same, I appreciate that they at least try to form a society). So again, I DON'T CONDONE ACTUAL TORTURE IN OUR CONTEMPORARY WORLD. Thanx. :) )

    So, what're your thoughts? Who'd you side with? Is the Legion's quest for civilization at any cost too brutal, even by Fallout standards? I'm interested in hearing your responses.
     
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  2. a721402

    a721402 Played FPS for decades still suck at it.

    Mar 29, 2016
    Why will you think people will be surprised by you choose to side with Legion when your avatar fundamentally is the legion flag?
     
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  3. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix Centurion

    Jun 25, 2018
    It was sarcasm lol
     
  4. Beardy Unixer

    Beardy Unixer First time out of the vault

    Apr 24, 2018
    One might suggest that if crucifixion is okay for the scum of the wasteland, you might take a look at a group who committed genocide multiple times, keep both worker and sex slaves, and go on a murder-rape-pillage spree of the Mojave with brainwashed teenagers abducted as children might be good candidates for crucifixion themselves.
     
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  5. Alphons

    Alphons National Beholder

    Aug 9, 2017
    I disagree with it a lot. No one in Nipton (maybe except for Stein) deserved their fate from what we can find in the game.

    Vulpes didn't make a trial for atrocities Nipton settlers, NCR troopers or Powder Gangers did, he just hit where it would hurt the most people.

    It wasn't a fair sentence for anyone in Nipton. It was based on assumption that they don't deserve to live.
     
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  6. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix Centurion

    Jun 25, 2018
    Perhaps. But I'd be willing to argue that Nipton was a sinkhole. Hell, even Ranger Ghost sees it that way. Maybe it was harsh; I will concede with the point that the Nipton townspeople were innocent enough. But the Powder Gangers? Every last one of them deserved what they got. If they hadn't slaughtered the prison staff, then maybe some of them would be less guilty than others. But the fact that they willingly followed Cooke in order to escape shows that they didn't want to pay their debt to society.

    That being said, the whole argument calls certain assumptions about double standards into question. It could be argued (as @Beardy Unixer stated) that by the logic of atrocities that the Legion is worthy of their own crucifixion. And I'll concede to that point. But some would say that's the price of civilization. Rome was the center of the Mediterranean world and offered a better life for those huddled masses (depending on who was in charge or at which stage of the Republic we're talking about) than even former center of civilization Greece did. In the same way, for those under their rule, the Legion is fair and just. Just like Ancient Rome, if one simply submits and assimilates, then the Legion will keep them safe. History is written by the victor, and the Mojave is a battlefield. Preemptive strikes are a necessary sacrifice.
     
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  7. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dark side in da houssah

    Nov 22, 2009
    I thought that maybe there should be 'half-choices' in the game. I also didn't mind that the powder gangers were crucified, I mean is it really that more cruel than the all the shooting and flame-thrower using the player does throughout the game? And if you're a sneaker/politician, more power to you, I usually start blasting at some point.

    And by 'half-choice' I mean that one should be able to condone the crucifixion of the drug pushers but not side with the Legion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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  8. Beardy Unixer

    Beardy Unixer First time out of the vault

    Apr 24, 2018
    I don't know, I just think you're setting your goals a little low. If the worst atrocities humanity can commit are a price you're willing to pay, then why not go the whole hog and join Ulysses?

    I still haven't finished New Vegas with the NCR ending. I can't bring myself to join them. There is just no compelling reason to support the NCR, so I'm not exactly a fan of them either.

    But while I have finished siding with Legion, it was hardly a "best hope for the wasteland" choice. Rather, my character was aware he would have to live with the consequences of Hoover Dam, and feared being the next Joshua Graham far more than he feared the NCR who couldn't organise an clusterfuck in an omnishambles, nevermind organise a bounty on his head. Which in a strange sort of way is consistent with your argument here. In my pro-Legion playthrough, it was their...somewhat overbearing personality...that kept me in line.

    Ultimately, the only good ending is to install Marcus in the Lucky 38 after arranging an alliance between Jacobstown, the Kings, and the Followers, but that's not an in game option.
     
  9. Ayelander

    Ayelander Big Man

    Jun 30, 2018
    What, the roaming gay bar? Damn thing is a cult of personality. Nobody in the Legion gives a shit about the Legion. All about their husbando Caesar and how he's so epic and badass.

    But really though, Legion is fucking retarded. Their only merit is being 2barbaric4raiders. That is it. There are no other reasons to live in their society beisdes muh caravans and giving sickos a platform to stand on. I've said it in a different thread, but the Legion exist far too late in the timeline to be anything but an edgelord club. Their brutaility they think is so fucking essential for humanity to survive is a about 150 years past the mark. People have their shit together for gods sake. The only ones that would ever need the culture and identity Caesar promises are the assbackwards tribals.

    Not to mention Sallows. Fucking LARPer Sallows.
    "Fuck technology, you guys need some good old powder"
    Has a fucking autodoc for him and his clique. Get on his good side and you can break all the fucking rules you like. Oh hey Lanius you wanna break this guy in half yeah bro go ahead lmao. He has such an ego, he made his own group of adoring fans to gush over him and do what he says. Pathetic.

    I'll give the Legion one thing, they are very good at being the alpha raider pack. They can delude theirselves with the idea they're anything but spearchuckers with a latin vocabulary of about three words. But they're doomed to stagnate and fail, in turn bringing humanity down two more pegs if they achieve their goal of unifying the world under their banner of ignorance.

    You can argue about all the cut content that fucked the Legion's presence in NV, but everything ingame is all you need to know about them. Nobody fucking likes the Legion in the Mojave, even the Legion hates being Legion. Worst faction and barely a cut above the Khans for the ultimate spot of platinum coated shit.
     
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  10. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix Centurion

    Jun 25, 2018
    I've never been one for the "Legion will collapse after Caesar" thing. Say what you will about Edward Sallow, he knows his philosophy. He knows what he wants. He's not tied down like the NCR, with every part of their precious democratic system pulling in different directions. What Cass says about Ranger Jackson can be applied to many in the NCR: "He's been with the NCR so long, all he can see is the worst in everything. So he doesn't do anything." What I'm saying is that Sallow is smart enough to appoint an Octavian. Is he an overbearing prick? Absolutely. So is House. The difference is that I trust Caesar to have a plan of succession, and one he plans himself, not just handing the Legion over to that gorilla Lanius.

    As for no-one liking the Legion, not many people liked Rome except the Romans; but even the Greeks had to admit to being impressed by her beauty. Most people in the wastes hate the Legion because they see them as edgy barbarians; and that's somewhat true. But who do they side with? The NCR? The Republic faces the same problems as modern America. It can't get its shit together, and don't even try to tell me that the NCR won't descend into a toxic two-party system if it's allowed to continue to exist. Both the NCR and the Legion retread the past; the difference is that the Legion's past has been proven to last longer. Is it barbaric by our standards? Yes. That's the exact same reason the citizens of the NCR hate it. They think that humanity has progressed in such a way where we can leave the Legion's tactics behind. But, at the end of the day, we're still humans. A flawed creation. And sometimes we need an iron fist to shock us into our place. As @Beardy Unixer said, it's the Legion's overbearing personality that keeps people in line. Again, the Legion doesn't kill its own citizens. Its rules are the same as Rome's; submit, and we will treat you well. Fight us, and we will stop at nothing.

    The brutality that the Legion uses is what causes people to compare them to raiders; but what people in the wastes are most successful? Who is peppered all over the place, despite not having any unifying force? The NCR can attack the Vipers and Jackals all they want; at the end of the day whenever you eliminate 2 raider groups 4 more will pop up. The thing that makes the Legion more than the average raider is their organization. Might makes right in the Hobbesian world of the Mojave; the Legion has that in spades, plus a tried and true system of assimilation.

    In my honest opinion, there is no "happy ending" to New Vegas. There will always be more Fiends, more Jackals, more shifty NCR politicians. At least the Legion keeps their people safe from that by definitively being the bigger bully, willing to do what no one else will.
     
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  11. Ayelander

    Ayelander Big Man

    Jun 30, 2018
    Then why does he not name Lucius or Vulpes his successor? Both are very much in his super secrit boys club. Caesar has made it clear he is entirely willing to have Lanius carry on after his death. Lanius is everything the Legion promotes in a man, you think the guy would get away with half the shit he does just because he's Caesar's personal meathead? The only hope for the Legion surviving a generation past Sallows was Graham. And we all know how Caesar pissed his lifetime's work away to make an example of his greatest asset. The guy isn't anywhere near the genius people think he is, burning Graham alive was the worst possible move to make if he ever wanted longterm Legion presence. The line of succession is completley fucked and he can only blame himself for grooming the psychopath for the position.

    Big difference between a professional attitude and saying fuck and shit every other word to look like a big man.


    Rome tore itself part in the end. The Legion will repeat this the second Caesar dies.

    Going back to the point about the Legion coming in too late to have a point in their method, oh joy. As it is, there is no need for them to be around. They clear out raiders by being barbarians. Great, you have one reedeming quality keeping you barely in the 'grey' morality. But after that, there is nothing of worth to be found in the Legion. Slavery, rape, primitive behaviour and regression in the form of a twisted emulation of a dead Empire. I find it baffling that anyone would look to an empire- (y'know that thing that always comes crashing down?) As a font of inspiration. When the Legion mirrors Rome, they fail to recognize they will suffer the same pitiful end as the original. The Legion's 'assimilation' is more akin to wiping the brain entirely and filling it with Degenerates Like you Belong on a Cross For Dummies Vol. IV.

    I don't think happiness really counts when you consider the future of your species. The Legion understands this, but they only know this because it is drilled into their heads and glued together by fear of their own Leader. All a Legionaire knows is brutality in all its forms. They have no plan for what comes after Caesar and his conquest of the Mojave. The future doesn't look bright under the banner of the bull, for either side you're looking at it. The willingness to be the biggest piece of shit doesn't count for much when there isn't any need to be it.

    The Legion is a primitive, backwards society. And when faced with two other options of
    Emulation but America
    or
    Give me 50 years and I'll have spaceships.
    I can't say they're an attractive choice in any corner of my mind.
     
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  12. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix Centurion

    Jun 25, 2018
    :lmao:

    I definitely see all of your points, but the way I see it
    1) Lanius embodies everything the Legion wants in a warrior. Vulpes would make a better politician, but he's head of the Frumentarii. He already has a job, as does Lanius, as head of Caesar's army. The thing about how the Legion is portrayed in NV is that we never see how they conduct themselves during peacetime; in Fallout 2, we saw how the NCR governed. In NV, we can only form a conclusion based on what characters tell us. And from that, we can reconstruct a vision of Legion controlled areas; somewhere much safer than NCR territory or outer Vegas, I'd reckon.

    2) I'm certainly not saying that the Legion won't collapse. It'll happen. So will the NCR. So will House's moon society, even if he moves humanity forward; it's the fate of humanity. We wreck everything we touch, and modern America is proof of that. For all the strides we've made we find ourselves taking just as many steps back as the politicians and fat cats bleed us dry, the men who's motives we never even think about gun us down in the streets, and the peacekeepers get a bad rap because of the actions of the few. Oh, and the media is so partisan these days that everybody pushes their own agenda, therefore driving us all further apart. I'd be willing to argue that America (and the NCR) will die as pitifully as Rome did. Just sooner.

    3) There's a whole different thread for this, but... House. Yes, he's made the securitrons. Yes, he stopped most of Vegas from being destroyed. Ok, he has a plan for spaceships and shit. I'll concede all of this. No argument. But having a vision and way to execute it are two entirely different things. Even if he does, what's stopping him from turning his new moon society into Rapture In Space? You have to admit that House and Andrew Ryan are pretty similar; Hell, they even made a reference to it in a GRA challenge. But let's take it for granted that House stays benevolent, and his space society is plausible. How do we know that someone else won't fuck it up? I know it probably seems like I'm just grasping at thin air, and perhaps I am. I understand that. But humans are humans. You can't tell me and expect me to believe that every last human House lets into his exclusive space society is going to be a paragon of humanity. Take it from someone who almost went to prison for false allegations, psychopaths are VERY good at hiding who they are. If a manipulator makes it into House's space posse, all it takes is for them to whisper poison to the right people for the situation to go back to Rapture In Space.

    4) As for the Legion brainwashing recruits... I actually got nothing. It's true. But the US Marines break people down and make them think they're killing machines too. It's something every society has a variation of. Even Rapture Part 2: Electric Boogaloo. There's something very... Big Brother-y about House, you know? Like him sending Victor to spy on Goodsprings and shit. It all just seems... not sinister, but... odd. Like Jane apparently not being programmed to say "Goodbye". I'm definitely grasping at straws here and I'm aware of that, but my gut tells me that House isn't as benevolent as he likes to appear. He's a businessman; he's selling you on his idea of the future. And if he has to lie or stretch the truth, then he'll do so to win the Courier over to his side. Maybe that's not a good enough reason to hate him. Probably not. But Caesar and the Legion's skeletons in the attic are plain for all to see, not hidden behind a façade of a cowboy robot that's overly friendly. I'd rather have a known enemy than a fake friend.

    5) You're obviously very passionate about your side and I greatly appreciate that, and I enjoy this conversation. I just feel like you get a bit... well, rude. Like I said, I understand why, and it makes me happy to know that I can have a conversation with someone who feels strongly about an opposing viewpoint, just try to be less... angry :smile:. I get that you'll probably roll your eyes at this. IDGAF, just figured I'd put it out there. In the same way, IDGAF who you side with; I just like having conversations like this with people and learning about how they feel about these sorts of things. And besides, we have enough crosses for you all ;-).
     
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  13. Ayelander

    Ayelander Big Man

    Jun 30, 2018
    Well damn, I was shooting for suave handsome wiseass. :cool: But I suppose it came off as untempered rage? :violent: Oh well.

    But I mean, shit. At the end of the day House, NCR and Legion are all aspects of each other. All three are looming authority worship cults. I just prefer my brand of dictatorship to be the one with a snazzy suite and cowboy butler

    Fair enough. It really is down to the time constraints placed on Obsidian. Too much left out, more than half of the Legion was left behind in CC. Only question I'd have to ask is whether the Legion would even know what to do with peacetime. Fighting is their bread and butter after all.

    Oh no argument here. I love the guy but he's not above overselling himself to work you. Guy just throws money at you when you show signs of doubt. I still believe that he's the most likely to back up what he says. Sure, maybe it won't be the 50 year inter-dimensional colony effort he's advertising, but compared to dying expansionist nation or pssh nothin personell, profligate. I'll take House up on his brand of bullshit. But god, anything is better than Yes Man's power fantasy.
    Although, I'd like to believe that facing a world your species nearly destroyed because of their thirst for blood would change us enough to make us change our nature. Though, with the conflicts still present 200 years after armageddon I doubt humanity could ever make it work. Just let pigeons inherit the Earth.

    I feel like a lot of it is down to House's lack of any real control over the Mojave. Progress was severely halted with the platinum chip's delivery being too late to fully realise House's plans. The spy network and friendly smiles of Victor and Jane are all he really has. His authority is confined to such a small area, it doesn't do any good for his ego. He has to appear stronger than he really is or else the NCR/Legion/Benny will just waltz in to the Lucky 88 and kill him in his chamber. All things considered, he's a hell of a lot 'nicer' when he's backed into a corner than I can ever see the NCR or Legion being. Know your role, shut your mouth and you'll get along fine with him. Although, the same goes for the Legion.
    I suppose for me, its a cointoss on whether you want civilization to be restored or reborn. I shit on the Legion a lot, but if they just soilidified theirselves and worked their heirarchy out into something that'll last, they'd be a real contender for me. Unlike House, their vision for the future is fully within grasp if they win. With House you rely entirely on his ability to make good on his promises.

    At any rate, there are enough Securitrons under the fort to show the Legion how to really be mindless drones.
     
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  14. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix Centurion

    Jun 25, 2018
    Oh dude don't like feel bad or anything. I really am enjoying this convo; it's just the troubles that come with not hearing someone's inflection, you know? It's all good ;-).

    As for your other points, I totally get why people hate the Legion and why people side with House; I dunno, I just don't trust him to make good on those promises he makes. I feel like it's just so far-fetched that he has to throw money at the Courier to hide the fact that, let's be honest, moon colonization in the Fallout universe, even for House, is just insane.

    At the end of the day I suppose that the reason I side with the Legion is because I see a lot of myself in them, if you can believe it. Like I see my heritage. My family's Italian part is directly from Rome; my grandfather got off the boat from Italy in the 50's as a 16 year old kid. So I guess something about the Legion just appeals to me in that regard. Even if, as Ulysses says, the Legion will eventually turn on itself and die, I grew up hearing from my family about how great the Empire we once had was. And I guess I just like the opportunity to recreate that glory my ancestors had. The opportunity to give this new Caesar his Gaul.
     
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  15. Ayelander

    Ayelander Big Man

    Jun 30, 2018
    Well if we're using the ancestry point. Me being Scottish and all must make me biased against quasi-Romans rising up and conquering murderous savages. Also, lmao. "I grew up hearing from my family about how great the Empire we once had was." How long have the people in your family been alive for? That sounds like firsthand experience talking.

    Ditto on the moon colony. I'd prefer if technology didn't over-exceed what was around before the bombs hit. Sharing his medical secrets and all, sure. But going full starship troopers is a stretch.
     
  16. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix Centurion

    Jun 25, 2018
    1) Filthy Celt profligate lol
    2) Well, my family is kinda… the combination of multiple warriors. The Italian part of my family traces our ancestry to a couple Centurions and a Praetor, the Polish part of my blood to Miesko II Lambert, a Polish duke most well known for sacking Saxony twice, and the French part of my family to a shitload of knights; one even died at the Battle of the Golden Spurs (a battle against Flanders that was a debilitating loss for the French, lmao)
     
  17. Ayelander

    Ayelander Big Man

    Jun 30, 2018
    Alba gu bràth.
    I have a Polish family member too, great grandfather. All anyone knows about him is that he was really tan. But props to all that testosterone running in the family.
     
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  18. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix Centurion

    Jun 25, 2018
    Judging from the men on my dad's side, it's less testosterone and more liquid stupidity. I'm also the only male on my dad's side who's attractive so there's that.
     
  19. Ayelander

    Ayelander Big Man

    Jun 30, 2018
    Well, everyone has different ideas of what's attractive. I mean, someone at Bethesda clearly thoiught MacReady was handsome enough in Fallout 4 to have every female gush over his little rodent looking face.
     
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  20. AureliusofPhoenix

    AureliusofPhoenix Centurion

    Jun 25, 2018
    upload_2018-9-16_22-33-51.jpeg
    I’m def not the most handsome man but I’m the only viable male heir on my dads side to be completely honest with you
     
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