Anti-Americanism- the return

welsh

Junkmaster
Dubbuyah is off to Europe, and so it's worth wondering-

What is the american reception abroad? What do you people really think.

Euros and others- I know this sounds like more American narcissism.

But there has been quite a bit of it on this board of late. Hey, we ain't all republicans christian torture enthusiasts.

Oh and the link doesn't work-

America seen from abroad

Feb 17th 2005
From The Economist print edition

George Bush will encounter a more complex animosity than is often portrayed when he ventures abroad next week

EVER since the days of the Founding Fathers, America has regarded what George Washington called “the foreign world” with a degree of suspicion, and the foreign world has often reciprocated. Never more than now, it seems. Under George Bush, anti-Americanism is widely thought to have reached new heights—and, in the view of the Pew Research Centre, a Washington surveyor of world opinion, new depths. Its latest report says that “anti-Americanism is deeper and broader now than at any time in modern history.” But though anti-Americanism spans the globe, the phenomenon is not everywhere the same. It mutates according to local conditions, and it is seldom straightforward.

No wonder. Most people’s feelings about America are complicated. “America”, after all, is shorthand for many other terms: the Bush administration, a Republican-dominated Congress, Hollywood, a source of investment, a place to go to study, a land of economic opportunity, a big regional power, the big world power, a particular policy, the memory of something once done by the United States, a set of political values based on freedom, democracy and economic liberalism, and so on. It is easy to be for some of these and against others, and some may wax or wane in importance according to time, circumstance, propaganda or wishful thinking. So it should be no surprise that some people can hold two apparently contradictory views of America at once. The incandescent third-world demonstrator, shrieking “Down with America!” in one breath and “Can you get me a green card?” in the next, has become a commonplace.

As Mr Bush may discover when he meets his French counterpart over dinner on Monday, no country contains this mixture of attitudes in greater abundance than France. France is a longstanding ally of the United States (since 1778); it gave America the Statue of Liberty; it conferred honorary citizenship on Madison; it was the country of Lafayette (American revolutionary hero), of Montesquieu (profound influence on Jefferson) and of L’Enfant (designer of Washington, DC). Yet France is also the country that rails against American hyperpuissance (hyperpowerdom), cheers when rustic thugs lay waste McDonald’s and laps up books like “11 Septembre 2001: l’Effroyable Imposture”, whose thesis, that the attacks on the twin towers were “an appalling deception” to justify American adventurism, won it sales of 100,000 in its first week of publication. France, moreover, is the home of Gaullism, a form of nationalism saturated with anti-American bilge—and the well-spring of Mr Chirac’s political creed.

All this has made France the locus classicus of anti-Americanism. Yet many ordinary French people, as distinct from their more politically-minded countrymen, are rather pro-American. They go to American movies, take holidays in the United States, eat in McDonald’s (rustics permitting) and shop in places that look much like American giant stores. In a poll conducted in 21 countries by the BBC World Service last month, only a small majority (54%) of those interviewed in France said they viewed American influence unfavourably—not much more than in Australia (52%), and rather less than in Mexico (57%), Canada (60%) and Germany (64%).

The repulsion of similars
So what explains France’s reputation for anti-Americanism? The main answer is that it is proclaimed bombastically by so many of those in France who strike political attitudes. They do this partly because of the rivalry between France and America, based on their remarkably similar self-images: the two countries both think they invented the rights of man, have a unique calling to spread liberty round the world and hold a variety of other attributes that make them utterly and admirably exceptional. Jealousy also plays a part. America is often better than France at activities that the French take great pride in, such as making movies or even cooking—at least if popular taste is the judge. And French politicians are not blind to the value of criticising someone else in order to divert attention from their own failures: French anti-Americanism tends to rise when France has just suffered a setback of some kind, whether defeat at the hands of the Germans, a drubbing in Algeria or the breakdown of the Fourth Republic.

Not many countries share all these characteristics, but several have some of them. Take Iran, where political diatribes, religious sermons, rent-a-mob demonstrations and heroic graffiti regularly denounce the Great Satan and all his doings. Anti-Americanism is central to the ideology of Iran’s ruling Shia clerics. Yet Iranians at large, like the French, are not noticeably hostile to America. The young in particular seem thoroughly pro-American, revelling in America’s popular culture, yearning for its sexual freedoms, some even hoping for an American deliverance from their oppression. Whether the affection runs deep is another matter: pro-Americanism among the young is a form of anti-regime defiance that might evaporate quickly if their country were attacked.

Yet why should the clerics bang on so relentlessly about the United States when the British were just as deeply involved in the overthrow of Mohammed Mossadegh’s regime in 1953, when Iraq under Saddam Hussein posed a much greater threat, and when, recently at least, America has shown itself ready to get rid of the Baathists next door and pave the way for a Shia-led government in Iraq? The main explanation, as in France, is rivalry. Iran’s theocratic regime has clear ambitions to be a leader not just of the Middle East but of the entire Muslim world. America, now avowedly bent on spreading democracy across the region, is in the way.

The regime has other reasons as well, no doubt: to divert attention from its many failures; to keep alive the thought that the wicked shah, restored to power in the 1953 coup, was the creature of the Americans, even though memories of his rule glow ever more brightly for many older Iranians; and, inevitably, to exploit the widespread feeling among Muslims almost everywhere that the United States is pro-Israel, anti-Palestine and indeed anti-Islam, a feeling that has intensified, according to the polls, since September 11th 2001. Pew says anti-Americanism is nowhere more acute than in the Muslim world.

Even here, though, the picture is not uniform. In Indonesia, the biggest Muslim country, anti-Americanism is largely an armchair affair. People are happy to curse the United States—a current rumour suggests it could have given warning of the December tsunami but chose not to—yet none of the recent terrorist attacks in Indonesia seems to have been directed at Americans. In Arab countries, by contrast, some people are clearly ready to take up arms in pursuit of al-Qaeda’s jihad.

Arab anti-Americanism is a much younger phenomenon than its European counterpart. Although it shares with European left-wingery much claptrap about the wickedness of American materialism, it became widespread in the Middle East only with America’s open support for Israel after the 1967 six-day war. Eleven years earlier, Arabs had been all for the United States: it had just put a stop to the Suez affair, the British-French-Israeli attempt to overthrow the Nasser regime in Egypt. But since 1967 America has been considered by Arabs to be incomprehensibly pro-Israeli. The potency of this view probably owes more to Arab failures than to anything else—failures to deal with Israel, to establish democracies, to create modern economies, to produce heroes in virtually any field of respectable human endeavour. This must be someone’s fault. Whose? Why, the local thug (Israel) and its sponsor (America), of course.

A seminal event, akin to the 1967 war for Arabs, may be found in plenty of other places where anti-Americanism flourishes. In Greece it was America’s backing for the rule of the colonels (1967-74). In Spain, it was the support—implicit, if not explicit—of the Franco regime that came with America’s military bases in the 1950s. Some say Spain’s dislike for America dates back to the Spanish-American war of 1898, but in truth that made little impact on the left, which saw the war as an agent of Spain’s modernisation. When American soldiers arrived at Torrejón and other bases in the 1950s, though, the Spanish left saw them as collaborators, not liberators.

Most of the far left in Europe is still anti-American, for familiar reasons: America is materialist, imperialist, interventionist, etc. But right-wingers, too, are sometimes hostile. The ideas of the American revolution have inevitably challenged anciens régimes and anti-democrats of any stripe (including Franco’s, until the bases). As conservatives have come to terms with democracy, those who have taken against America have done so mostly for snobbish or cultural reasons: hence the antagonism of such British writers as Evelyn Waugh and Kingsley Amis.

Latin Americans may think they have better reasons to harbour a grudge. Mexico, for instance, lost about half its territory to the United States in the war of 1846-48. In the BBC survey last month, only 11% of the Mexicans polled had a mainly favourable view of the influence of their northern neighbour, less even than the proportion of Argentines, who are in other respects even more hostile. Cubans have resented the United States ever since 1898, when their hard- and long-fought war of independence against Spain was in effect stolen from them by the yanquis prosecuting the Spanish-American war.

The United States then made some 30 military interventions in and around the Caribbean in the next 30 years, many of them under Smedley Butler, a marine corps general, who summed up his career thus: “I helped make Honduras “right” for American fruit companies in 1903. I helped make Mexico…safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street…I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China, I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.”

For most of the 19th century, Latin Americans—including their great liberator, Simón Bolívar—had drawn inspiration from the American colonists’ anti-British revolt. But the war of 1898 and the interventions that followed turned most of them against the great power next door. The hostility remains, in varying degrees, though 15 years of democratisation, emigration to and trade with the United States have done much to soften attitudes, especially in Central America.

Other nations that have experienced American meddling also continue to resent it. For evidence, just go to Congo, where Mobutu Sese Seko ruled imperiously for decades courtesy of the United States, or to Angola, whose long wars were drawn out by the superpower sponsorship of its local tyrants. Yet anti-Americanism in such places does not seem to run deep. This is not just a matter of distance. The Philippines is hardly adjacent, yet its experience as an American colony for half a century has left it with a persistent strain of anti-Americanism—as well as an infatuation, among the young at least, with basketball and country music.

Proximity makes the heart grow colder
That suggests that the intensity of the American experience may be the decisive factor in the creation of lasting anti-Americanism. It would explain why Indians, for instance, though their governments were long hostile to America in foreign policy, have never shown much antagonism in other ways. Yet the intensity test certainly does not provide an iron rule. On the one hand, Canada, which has never suffered anything worse from its neighbour than cultural imperialism, ignoration and disdain, is perpetually critical of the United States. If it were not—if it did not define itself in opposition to its neighbour—Canada, it seems, would have no reason to exist. On the other hand, Vietnam, less than 30 years after a long war against the Americans in which it lost about 5m of its people, seems to harbour little hostility towards its old foe. Perhaps it is just too busy to hate.

It may help, too, that Vietnam has not had any subsequent reason, real or imaginary, to resent America. In many of the places where the embers of anti-Americanism burn brightest, some event has taken place to rekindle them. For Arabs, the war in Iraq is one. For Latin Americans, it was the United States’ support for Augusto Pinochet’s coup in Chile (and now its stomp-all-over-the-place war on drugs). For Greeks, it was the American-led interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo—interventions on behalf of Muslims, though many Muslims seem to forget it. The Greeks, though, did not. They were outraged by NATO’s attacks on the Serbs, another Orthodox Christian people. In the Philippines, America was considered far too friendly to the kleptocratic and ruthless Ferdinand Marcos. In every country with American bases, any outrage by American servicemen—the rape of a Japanese child, the running over of two South Korean girls, the severing of an Italian cable-car’s wires—tends to strengthen latent hostility.

Why is Japan—on which America dropped nuclear bombs—far more pro-American than South Korea, which owes much of its freedom to America?

The vigour of anti-American feeling varies strongly even among peoples who, to the casual observer, seem to have no good reason for their differing reactions. The Japanese, for example, defeated in war—Tokyo fire-bombed, Hiroshima and Nagasaki triturated with atomic bombs—seem far more pro-American than the South Koreans, who owe much of their freedom to American force of arms. Why? Perhaps because the Japanese feel, rightly or wrongly, much more threatened by China and North Korea than do the South Koreans, and are therefore much more grateful to a protective Uncle Sam.

Certainly, hostility to America is often mitigated by feelings of friendship and gratitude. Plenty of elderly Frenchmen remember America’s role in liberating their country. Plenty of Germans remember the Berlin airlift. Plenty of elderly Iranians are proud that they once studied in the United States. Many, if not most, of the reformist democrats in Latin American governments have been to American universities, as have several of their east and central European counterparts.

An American diaspora may also have a mollifying effect in the old country. France, which has sent few emigrants to North America since before the European Enlightenment, is unusual in providing no hyphenated Americans (which may help to explain why French anti-Americanism is matched by American anti-Frenchism). Huge communities of Latin Americans, Indochinese, Greeks, Koreans, Iranians, you name it, have grown up in recent decades in the United States and ensure that a constant flow of money, ideas and hope flow from America to other parts of the world.

Gestures that make all the difference
This background of ties, aspirations and shared values means that in some places anti-Americanism can be dissipated quite quickly with a visit (such as Bill Clinton’s trip to India in 2000) or some other gesture (debt forgiveness perhaps, or some post-tsunami assistance). In other places, though, it would take much more to change attitudes: an American-engineered peace between Israel and the Palestinians, say, or a credible commitment to tackle global warming, and even these might prove ineffective without other policy changes sustained over many years. And in some places it may well be impossible for America to do very much. The mere fact of being a great power ready to intervene (in, say, Kosovo) is enough to make enemies. And then some states, like some people, have chips on their shoulders. Anti-Americanism in Argentina and parts of the Arab world has as much to do with the inadequacies of these countries as with anything done by the United States.

Why, anyway, should America care if a bunch of foreigners dislike it, or affect to? Maybe, as a military and economic power without rival, it should not be too worried. Yet America needs the co-operation of other governments if it is to conduct trade, combat drugs, reduce pollution and fight terrorism. Moreover, Mr Bush is now committed to spreading “freedom” across the Middle East, indeed across the world. If foreigners, disillusioned with America, believe this is merely a hypocritical justification for getting rid of regimes he dislikes, the task may be harder. It is striking that Mr Bush’s 49 mentions of liberty or freedom in his inaugural address last month do not seem to have struck the sort of chord round the world that Jack Kennedy’s quixotic commitments did in the 1960s.

Shining city loses lustre
That may reflect the greater cynicism of the worldwide audience 40 years on. But the polls suggest it also has something to do with Mr Bush. Last month’s BBC poll found that opposition to Mr Bush was stronger than anti-Americanism in general, and that the particular had contributed to the general. Asked how Mr Bush’s election had affected their views of the American people, 42% said it had made them feel worse towards Americans.

That is the, perhaps short-term, view of some non-Americans. It is accompanied by another view, increasingly common among pundits, which holds that America is losing its allure as a model society. Whereas much of the rest of the world once looked to the United States as a beacon, it is argued, non-Americans are now turning away. Democrats in Europe and elsewhere who once thought religiosity, a belief in capital punishment and rank hostility to the United Nations were intermittent or diminishing features of the United States now see them as rising and perhaps permanent. Such feelings have been fortified by Mr Bush’s doctrine of preventive war, Guantánamo, opposition to the world criminal court and a host of other international agreements. One way or another, it is said, people are turning off America, not so much to hate it as to look for other examples to follow—even Europe’s. If true, that could be even more insulting to Americans than the rise in the familiar anti-Americanism of yesteryear.
 
The incandescent third-world demonstrator, shrieking “Down with America!” in one breath and “Can you get me a green card?” in the next, has become a commonplace.
Is it just me, or does this strike anybody else as a prticularly self indulgant statement? In fact, the entire article seemed rather one sided, something never good in journalism - is the The Economist that you seem to admire so much?
a set of political values based on freedom
anti-American bilge
only a small majority (54%)
America is often better than France at activities that the French take great pride in, such as making movies or even cooking—at least if popular taste is the judge.
(Erm ... What?)
it shares with European left-wingery much claptrap about the wickedness of American materialism
Nah, this artricle has a little too much spin for my liking. (Although, I confess, I only scanned through the second half)

As for dismissing all Anti Bush positions and the foreign criticising of any American government policies as "Anti-American", this seems very over-simplistic. As in "You don't like something we do? You must HATE us!"

I do not consder myself to be blindly Anti American (indeed, there are many admirable attributes that your country posseses (your econimic drive, fierce independance (in many ways this is good), self sufficiency, the grand scale in which you often perform) - but - I do disagree with many of your current government's policies and your choice of a leader (and figurehead).

Dismissing any comment that defies you in this manner can not be healthy. You, as a country, mnay lose the ability to see your own faults if you are too busy defending them wholesale.
 
welsh said:
What is the american reception abroad? What do you people really think.
We hate you. The mere fact that we have to share this planet with you drives us fucking insane. We want to rip out your guts, spill your brains and leave your lifeless corpses lying in pools of blood. We hate you more than anyone that has ever hated anyone in the history of hate. If our hate for you was a WMD, it would be powerful enough to destroy the entire universe. You are lucky there is Atlantic Ocean between you and us. Real damn lucky. If it wasn't for the fucking ocean... oooh, the things we would do to you... We would fucking pulverize you. God himself would descend from the heavens trembling before our wrath. Not even He would be able to help you. You would be so screwed.

Seriously, though: I don't think European dislike for Americans is particularly greater now than it was a year ago. Most of us (not me) still think you are arrogant pricks on a power trip and with poor taste in cars (okay, yeah me for the latter). Pretty much everyone is convinced George W. Bush is Hitler reborn. Nope, nothing new on the right side of the Atlantic.
 
Egh. If you really want to know the opinion of non-Americans, don't start your thread with the quotation of a bubblegum article.

I'm not anti-American, America just happens to stand for most of the the things I hate about the state of our world: the inability to learn from history, blind ideologism, ignorance towards long-term effects, simplification of complex issues and treadmill recitations of empty justifications, just to name a few.

America isn't evil, it's just the perfect example of dumb people doing dumb things and being proud of it -- and that pride is what pisses people off even more than the actions alone.

Nuff said. Same old, same old.
 
Ashmo- you seem to be rephrasing the sentiments of Green's The Quiet America. In that Green argues about the danger of those with good intention but who are either naive or not self-reflective.

Ratty- Remember, you could always get a green card and the ocean isn't so big.

Thing is, during the Reagan years we were hated too. Then it spun around during the Clinton administration, and it went back down with Bush. So world public opinion seems to depend alot on who happens to be in office. That asshole Bush won a majority though, makes us look like ignorant in-breds.

T- I kind of agree with some of what you are saying, though I think you are being unfair to the article- as I think a lot of anti-americanism is about as stupid as DAC v. NMA wars. That Americans need to learn to take criticism- yep.

Is the article too one-sided because you happen to be anti-american?

I think one thing the article points out is the notion that countries and their leaders can play on grievances so that they ignore their faults or mistakes. How much is currently being done in Dafur, Sudan? Distraction and hate are good politics- Ratty you should know that best coming from your neck of the woods.
 
welsh said:
Ashmo- you seem to be rephrasing the sentiments of Green's The Quiet America. In that Green argues about the danger of those with good intention but who are either naive or not self-reflective.

Weird. Never heard about that.

Thing is, during the Reagan years we were hated too. Then it spun around during the Clinton administration, and it went back down with Bush. So world public opinion seems to depend alot on who happens to be in office. That asshole Bush won a majority though, makes us look like ignorant in-breds.

True. Clinton was charismatic and seemed to be rather benevolent when it came to foreign politics. With Bush you just feel like you're being asked to follow at gunpoint. Doesn't exactly bring up any sentiments.

Is the article too one-sided because you happen to be anti-american?

Nope, the article is one sided because the author isn't exactly using a somewhat neutral POV. To any non- or anti-American it sounds rather mocking.
 
It should be mocking. it is, after all, an editorial. Besides, Anti-Americanism generally is full of claptrap. :)
 
Well, to comment on earlier statements:

First, about reflection on our sentiments: Approximately half of America disagrees with our current international and economic policy. Much of our literature is not just about "pro-American" articles but also include a suprising amount of vitriol directed at our policy by our own citizens. To imagine America as being ideologically similar is a horrible injustice and blind idiocy. America is rife with ethnic, cultural, ideological, religious, economic, hell even sexual conflict.

Second point: Most Americans are yes, quite proud of ourselves. Why not? It is nationalism at work, the pride in one's country. Why can we not be proud of our successes as well, or must we look to only our failures? We already have enough people (again, about half our citizenry) who comment on when we do right or wrong. To have the rest of the world tell us we are doing this or that wrong is rather pointless. After all, if much of our government doesnt listen to half of its OWN citizens to change this or that, do you really think it would listen to YOU? This gets back to the clumping all Americans together: "It just ain't so".

Third point: Information control is pervasive. You see what media producers want you to see, including us. Freedom of the press and such, but money is money and can buy a great deal of air time. Good news doesnt sell as well as bad news, and there are ideological conflicts even among media stations. Influence is garnered by what we are presented with, and this applies to ANY nation. Think about how one's views are presented and from what source. Always consider the source.

Last point: Good for you to speak up on this welsh. Someone needed to do so, as being anti-American seems to be the vogue thing to do. I'm proud of my country, yet I am also a social liberal and proud Democrat. Being patriotic doesnt make you a) fanatic or b) ideologically united. I may intensely dislike Bush and the course he is taking, but I refuse, and quite rightly so, to disparage my own nation's GOOD points as well.
 
The thing is, though, that foreigners won't consider the good points. Why should they? The end result to them is our foreign policy, which they happen to disagree with. Whether or not they have just cause for worry is debatable, but the end result is that they do.

Consider this, China is becoming a burgeoning economic power. This expansion is seen in a positive light, since it provides an alternative to American power. China is also a benign global power. They have a brown water navy, and are only concerned with matters in their traditional sphere of influence. Thus, they also don't present a threat. Both of these are conditions that have painted China in a positive light, or allowed them to slip under the radar.

But internally, China is still an oppressive police state.

The internal affairs of a nation have no effect on foreign opinion. It is always foreign affairs that make the major play on foreign opinion.

Well, short of genocides. Which are generally seen as bad things.

Doesn't mean we have to intervene, though. Unless its foreign impact affects us.
 
welsh said:
Thing is, during the Reagan years we were hated too. Then it spun around during the Clinton administration, and it went back down with Bush. So world public opinion seems to depend alot on who happens to be in office. That asshole Bush won a majority though, makes us look like ignorant in-breds.

You say this as if it is something illogical. Like Brady said, countries (including the US) tend to judge one another by the threat they pose to one another or the benifit they can gain from one another. In realistic international politics things like "freedom" and "democracy" really don't matter that much. Freedom of the Afghani people was just a cover-up to get back at Al-Q for 9.11, freedom of the Iraqi people was just a cover-up for some threat Bush saw in his brain (God knows where he got that from) or, rather, for profit to be made in that region under heavy American influence. Heck, nobody even really bothered to propogate those cover-ups properly and the real reasons were blatantly shown (except for money from Iraq, which makes sense as that money is long-term and the cost is short-term), which proves once again just how cynical people are these days.

The only serious attempt to change this Machiavellian power-struggle has been the UN, which has been stripped from its meaning completely by Bush's actions by now and never lived up to its own high standards in any case, even though it did quite a lot of good. But even that was corrupted by powerstruggles, such as the Security Council.

That doesn't leave out that certain countries tend to view each other in certain ways. The relationship between West Europe, East Europe and the USA is a very difficult one and can not be examined without taking a lot of facts into account.

If you go way far back, you come back to us arriving, wiping out the Indians, then the English people in the US suddenly deciding they're not English and becoming Americans. Confusing? Yes, but not all that relevant anymore.

It really all boils back to two things; WW II and the Cold War. The reactions to the Iraqi war just reflect this again, the fear of the West European countries that America is "regressing" into its aggressively dominant protector-of-the-world role, a role we'd rather not see them in.
Now WW II, compare it to 9/11, gave the US a wave of popularity. It was carried by all of Europe that was not under Soviet control. Much like Bush blew his chance to ride this wave of popularity, the US in the end ended this wave of popularity too, starting under Kennedy, a much loved President even by the Europeans, but he did start the Vietnam war, which broke up the high-wave of US-loving.

It was a smack of realism, the Vietnam war. America, the great invincible saviour, suddenly showed itself to be both mortal and fallible. The US might've been able to hide the fact that you lost something like 60,000 (?, typing from memory) soldiers and almost lost to Germany during the Ardennen-attack at the end of WW II, but this was harder to hide and most of Western Europe, under the guidance mostly of Maoists and Leninist-Marxists (under Brezhnev) stood up and protested. Loudly.

This is when the term "anti-Americanism" popped up. But it is a heavy misnomer. Anti-Americanism implies that these people who stood up and shouted are all against America as a whole, which in turn also implies that this is their permanent state of mind. This is not the case. These Maoists and Leninist-Marxists are surely anti-American, the others are not. They never protested against America, even if they had to use signs like 'Down with the US' for the simple shock-effect, they protested against simple things; the Vietnam War and the ghastly face America had shown during it.

They didn't want the USA gone, they wanted their own USA back. The USA that had saved them from Germany.

Now understand the case now, it's getting different but it still shows exactly the same elements as above. Communists are almost completely gone, yes, but Left has taken up a more moderate banner of anti-American sentiments. The Eastern Bloc is gone, which is in fact very important...

Y'see, many Americans hint at "European anti-American sentiments". Even if I agreed to the term Anti-americanism, the term "European" is completely ass-backwards here. Eastern Europe consists of a group of countries who all, except for Russia, have just been liberated by America, who won the Cold War. Why do you think these countries, even the fledgeling members of the EU, pretty much all supported the US? Their debt to the US is much more direct than that of Western Europe. Incomparably so, in fact.

But the Western European situation is just repeating the whole Vietnam War situation. You see, these Europeans like the US, even if they state otherwise. They just don't like this US. It's easy to be led by the propaganda of mostly left-wing opinion-leaders who make everyone rise up against the US. Why? Because this is bloody scary, that's why.

The USA, sans SU to resist it, brushes away the UN, international influence and common sense to start a war against a country that even most of its own citizenry has stated to be against. Kyoto is destroyed, international relations are gone, the dollar is devaluated to allow American economy to climb up over European economy's back and the USA's international debt means an impending debt crisis. What the hell do you expect us to do? Nod and smile.

Even if one is to agree there is a sense in the USA's policy one would almost certainly have to admit this sense exists only from the USA's point of view. Europe is just getting ass-fucked. For some reason a lot of Americans seem to feel justified in expecting our pro-American sentiments to have the same characteristics as (their) nationalism; blind devotion to a country. Of course it doesn't. We don't influence your country directly, we only get the fallout of whatever you do wrong. Of course we're going to be critical, despite everything the US has done for us. The US never deserved blind devotion from the Europeans, yet somehow when you don't get it you cry out "anti-Americanism!"

Have I heard anyone speak of anti-Europeanism so far? No. Because we don't expect blind devotion from the Americans. Neither should you

Heh, anti-Europeanism. Maybe I should become a journalist and devote my life to making that term popular. "Anti-Europeanism runs rampant in the streets of New York". Booyeah
 
A good post Kharn. My only real question is:

When did we ever expect blind devotion? If anything, most Americans are pretty jaded about the rest of the world and its "anti-American sentiments" as you stated. Whereas what you only see is our foreign policy and propaganda, all we see is YOURS as well.

We see protests everywhere, we see angry mobs going hither fro carrying burning flags. Eventually you start to lose the will to GIVE a damn, to feel bad for these people and want change. Therefore, some of us (not myself) would get tired of the squabbling and say "fuck it, let's do it our way".

How much protesting and condemnations can you see before all the highbrow arguments are completely lost in a sea of resentment and apathy? I seem to come off as a bit of a liberalist as opposed to a classical realist, but ideals DO matter to people, especially the common citizenry.

No, we don't expect Europe to pat our back. Though at least some consideration would be nice. Some people aren't going to give a fuck anymore what Europe has to say and say that the dilemma we know is better than the backstabbing we don't. When idealists are discouraged, they tend to be yes, bitter, resentful, and harboring a grudge against the people they would normally wish to work with. THERE is a political lesson: In America, much more so than other countries it seems, idealism is integral to politics as well.


Radiohead "Electioneering"

I will stop, I will stop at nothing.
Say the right things when electioneering
I trust I can rely on your vote.

When I go forwards you go backwards
And somewhere we will meet.
When I go forwards you go backwards
And somewhere we will meet.
Ha ha ha

Riot shields, voodoo economics,
It’s just business, cattle prods and the i.m.f.
I trust I can rely on your vote.

When I go forwards you go backwards
And somewhere we will meet.
When I go forwards you go backwards
And somewhere we will meet.
 
People are jaded because they don't understand the rationale. Why would they? Its almost never clearly given.

France expended a massive amount of political capital in an attempt to cease our invasion of Iraq. Why? No clear reason was really given. When confronted with the issue, the French themselves would point to international law, and principles of non-interventionism. A smoke screen of moralism. That alone wouldn't be reason enough to risk permanently damaging relations with the US, however.

So why did the French, Germans, and Russians attempt to halt us at the UN? Because Iraq was pricing oil in Euros. The possibility of this becoming a trend in other OPEC nations would have been a gigantic boost to the European economy, as well as devastating that of the US. This would ensure European dominance over the world market, and reinstate their lost position as the puppet master of the world.

The US invasion of Iraq would have squashed this opportunity for economic dominance, so the dominant European powers went to great lengths to halt us diplomatically. They couldn't play the military card without losing their platform of international moralism. As well, they couldn't give the real reason for their actions, as it would have had the possibility of eroding support at home, and exponentially increasing the gap they've created between the Atlantic.

A noble lie.

But to Americans, this prospect had never crossed their minds. So the French appear to be nothing more than American-hating baguette-eating pussies.

Not that many of them aren't, but you get the idea. :)
 
Brady; if you apply this logic to France, which is for a large part fair play, then the same applies to the USA. In this perspective, it all boils down to a war of US Dollar vs. Euro. Which makes sense because, especially with the devaluation of the dollar, we're now coming to a time when people step to the Euro or their own currency (China), which means trouble for the US.

Fireblade said:
When did we ever expect blind devotion? If anything, most Americans are pretty jaded about the rest of the world and its "anti-American sentiments" as you stated. Whereas what you only see is our foreign policy and propaganda, all we see is YOURS as well.

The logic is a bit like this; Europeans like Americans when America, from our perspective, does good. When it doesn't, we don't like America. Yet rather than looking at it from this point of view, the USA always resorts to shouting "they're anti-American!" This implies that our problems with the US come from an inherent problem we have with the US as a whole rather than the US policy right now.

This in turn implies that since criticising the US when we don't agree with it means we're anti-American, the only way to be not anti-American is to never crticise the US. I know it's a slight bit of a stretch, but it does make sense. Basically what you're saying is the only way we can be not-anti-American is by never bringing forth any criticism.

Fireblade said:
No, we don't expect Europe to pat our back. Though at least some consideration would be nice. Some people aren't going to give a fuck anymore what Europe has to say and say that the dilemma we know is better than the backstabbing we don't. When idealists are discouraged, they tend to be yes, bitter, resentful, and harboring a grudge against the people they would normally wish to work with. THERE is a political lesson: In America, much more so than other countries it seems, idealism is integral to politics as well.

Idealism is always an exponent of democracy. Rulers don't care about idealism. Why? Because idealism is an derivation of instinct that tends towards preservation of the species. That's not the rulers' job, their job is preservation of the country.

That's where democracy steps in. Democracy functions as the morality of the government. As such idealism is never integral to "politics", but only to politics as an exponent of democracy.

So logically by stating this you are claiming that the American electorate is more moral than the European electorate. Is this fair? A lot of real-life experience would claim this, but it's questionable. Motives are often hard to split. There are things that are out-right evil, like nearing-the-end-of-colonialism behaviour of, say, France, but equally a lot of things serve as discussable evils, like Vietnam (US ánd France!), Korea (VN I know, but still mostly American) and Iraq

There's a lot to back this up. The USA is a lot more religious than Europe for one. The USA has done some major "selfless" acts in the past century. Europe has a lot of trouble letting go of its "we rule the world"-attitude from their colonial days

There's a lot against this too. Many European countries have spent more on foreign aid than America (Holland has long been the biggest giver in percentage of GDP). America is a long-time major exponent of an almost colonial-like form of capitalism, which Europe just follows, not leads. And more importantly, America, with the fall of the SU, is just getting into the "we rule the world"-attitude and it remains to be seen how exactly it'll be dealt with.

But ah la, it's an open and very variable question. Morality is often a question of convenience. When you can give, you give. When you can't, you can't. Or actually, replace can with "when it's easy to". Damn lazy humans...

But I digress, realise that protests, while boring, are the only way we have to get through to the US. Once again, we do not influence your elections, yet the affect us heavily. This is true worldwide, but it's especially true for the US, which has minor internal elections (with a strange electoral system (electoral college) and only half the people voting) but the biggest external effects of any country in the world, from both the President and the Secretary of Foreign Affairs*

As such we feel powerless and as such our only way to actually do something is protest. And protests are only convincing if you go extreme, burning flags and bullshit. I said this before, protests always say more than they mean, because they know they'll only reach home with 50% of the force shown, so they have to go for 200% force to get a 100% result.

* I like, by the way, how Bush pulled out a black guy and shoved in a black girl. I hope nobody is fooled by this token black people stuff
 
Brady; if you apply this logic to France, which is for a large part fair play, then the same applies to the USA. In this perspective, it all boils down to a war of US Dollar vs. Euro. Which makes sense because, especially with the devaluation of the dollar, we're now coming to a time when people step to the Euro or their own currency (China), which means trouble for the US.

Yes, I've talked about this several times before.

The popularity of the Euro isn't as significant as a lot of people think, though. When it comes to global currencies, its much more stable to have one instead of two. People will then go with the currency that is the most stable and has the longest track record, being the Dollar.

There are also many nations whose economies rely on trade with the United States. If the US economy tanks, expect a huge backlash in the world market. Another reason people still buy dollars.

Not to say that the Euro isn't a threat, it very well is. Otherwise we wouldn't have invaded Iraq. Just don't expect too much out of it.

but equally a lot of things serve as discussable evils, like Vietnam (US ánd France!), Korea (VN I know, but still mostly American)

I'd really like to know how the Korean war was evil.

* I like, by the way, how Bush pulled out a black guy and shoved in a black girl. I hope nobody is fooled by this token black people stuff

I thought Rice would make a good Secretary of State. =/

As popular as Powell was abroad, I'd really hesitate to call him the "token black guy."
 
Bradylama said:
I'd really like to know how the Korean war was evil.

It got a lot of people killed for little reason? Try chatting to a few of the KW vets sometime to really learn how fucked up that campaign went. Imagine old maneuvers being used with more modern artillery, many times more destructive than WWII, and for mostly political means than for defense of one's own country. Of course, I am sure that many South Koreans are grateful for the war in their defense, but it could have easily been the other way around and been a much nastier version of Vietnam, with the artillery that made the fronts in WWI/WWII look like toys.

It was The Vietnam War That Wasn't A Total and Complete Fuck-Up, though barely so. It was basically a global pissing contest for politics, and the same attitude used in the Korean War was used to erroneously make the US military believe that troops were capable of fighting in Vietnam or a number of other places. Fun fact: Most of the casualties in the war occured after peace talks were started, including the execution of POWs. On both sides.

Now for a practical modern application of this, replace "communism" with "terrorism" and you will have the last 50 years ready to repeat themselves. I shouldn't say "ready", as it is a little late to say that. Really, put the parallel of FEMA with the CMC and 9/11 with Homeland Security, each with laughable preparedness guidelines that were/are basically something to keep people believing the dogma, while also making them believe there is actually something they can do about the situation.

Duck and Cover!

Unfortunately for the politicians, the news isn't as isolated and prepared as it was back then, so it will be harder for them to try and overlay their spin-doctoring onto historical events. Amazing that the creation of the US military then becomes to very thing that causes the US politicians the most grief - free communication.
 
I don't see how they are alike. The Korean War was faught against invaders, the Vietnamese war was faught against insurgents. The North Korean and Chicoms where the agressors.
 
John Uskglass said:
I don't see how they are alike. The Korean War was faught against invaders, the Vietnamese war was faught against insurgents. The North Korean and Chicoms where the agressors.

Were the North Koreans the agessors? It's all in how you want to remember history.

True, the North Koreans were the ones who invaded. But are they to be called the instigators of that conflict? I doubt it.
Basically, that war started because of nothing but paranoia and hatred between the dicators of both North and South Korea. Kim Il Sung invaded South Korea for a large part because the incessant military expeditions by the South Koreans into North Korea made him believe South Korean (and American) invasion was imminent; not to mention the old Cairo Pledge witch the Southerners were twisting in such a way they claimed the US should help them in reuniting the Korean peninsula under Soutern Korean rule.

It's all in how you want to see history. Not suprisingly, you are seeing it the "I'll swallow and parrot everything as long as it makes me feel comfortable" way.

Same with the Vietnamese war. Were the NLF the agressors? You could say that. Then again, you also say that they were fighting against yet another dicatorial capitalist government that denied the Vietnamese to vote for their own government as had been pledged in the Geneva conference. And hey, the Vietnamese were getting pretty experienced in fighting against opressive regimes by then.
'Insurgents'. Bah. They wanted their freedom, and their right to choose what society they wanted - and by God, they very damn well deserved it. But of course, the US was there to support the capitalist dicators, once again.
 
Just to clarify a point:

The UN voted on the war in Korea. Granted it was the Security Council, but it was still the UN. You can kvetch all you wish about American imperialism, but if you want to lay the blame on the US solely, the other nations also deserve a share. I fail to see how preventing such actions in Korea as occured in North Vietnam (massive repercussions against South Vietnamese citizenry) was "immoral". Using outdated weaponry and tactics doesnt make a conflict immoral, it makes it exactly that, outmoded. Using modern or older weaponry doesnt change the nature of warfare.

Kharn: Correct me if I am wrong, but you generally seem to take somewhat of a realist stance as opposed to another form of international relations theory. Respect territorial boundaries, sovereingty is inviolate, the world is anarchy, nations seek only power and the like. Is this accurate?
 
Jebus said:
Were the North Koreans the agessors?

True, the North Koreans were the ones who invaded.
I stopped reading after this, as the rest is bullshit. Come on. This is pathetically rank of doublethink; the North invaded the South. The North did not have anything near the popularity of the Communist cause as in Vietnam. This is relitivistic by your standards.

North invaded. North was agressor. Simple.
 
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