Changing skill-dependent starting items

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by Sduibek, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. Sduibek

    Sduibek Creator of Fallout Fixt Moderator Modder

    Oct 27, 2010
    Has anyone thought about this? I have been wanting to expand or at least brainstorm these items. Like, what should the other skills give? (Speech, Gambling, Big Guns). Do the current items match sufficiently to the skills? etc.

    Implementing the change is super easy, I'm just looking for different viewpoints on what changes might be useful, because many minds is always better than one, for such tasks.

    The point here is to differentiate more clearly between chosen tag skills (and thus play styles) by making a wider difference between those character's starting resources.


    Ideas--

    Code:
    Small Guns            (same)
    Lockpick            (same)
    Speech             2 Mentats
    Energy Weapons            2 small energy cells
    Unarmed            brass knuckles, 2 buffout
    Melee Weapons            Knife & Club, 1 buffout
    Big Guns            Flamer? 5mm ammo?
    Throwing             3 knives, 1 explosive grenade
    First Aid            first aid kit 
    Doctor            doctor's bag
    Sneak            stealthboy
    Steal            (same)
    Traps            2 Dynamite
    Science            [why the fuck does Science get Buffout?]
    Repair            (same)
    Barter            2 Mentats
    Gambling            bottle caps (100 maybe?)
    Outdoorsman   food items in addition to flasks, and/or some extra flares

    Discuss. 8-)
     
  2. NovaRain

    NovaRain Casual Modder Modder

    Mar 10, 2007
    It's a bit pointless giving players only fuel/cells at start IMHO, unless you're planning to add some low tier BG/EW in the game. For sneak, stealth boy seems out of place for me, since I always consider it as a mid/late-game item. For trap maybe just one dynamite. Giving a club for melee seems redundant, because it has the same damage as knife.
     
  3. Eternauta

    Eternauta It Wandered In From the Wastes

    134
    Dec 8, 2010
    I don't see why the Vault Dweller would have caps on him when he leaves the vault.

    Anyway, modding the Dweller's starting gear is not a bad idea, but imho it'd be better to make it easier to use Big Guns, Energy Weapons and Throwing as main combat skills: Flamer and Laser Pistol available through quest - fuel, SEC's and throwing knives found on raiders, shops or first important NPCs (Aradesh, Seth...).

    Right now, Small Guns, Unarmed and Melee Weapons are the only 100% reliable combat skills while Big Guns and Energy Weapons are rather end-game skills (I never used Laser/Plasma pistols because I had good SG's already and was only interested in Laser/Plasma rifle or Gatling) and Throwing is pretty much ignorable. Although this is also because low (untagged) Throwing skill is useless so I never even brought a few grenades in case the enemies were close to each other during battle. (It isn't even really confortable to use more than 2 weapons in Fallout, 4 AP's to open iventory and switch weapons can be too much sometimes, but that's another story).

    That is why I don't think modding the starting gear would have such an impact on our playstyle. Why get SEC's if we don't have a weapon to use them with? I used to tag Energy Weapons just because I knew I could use Plasma Rifle and Gatling Laser near the end of the game (in other words, I'd just sell those SEC's, buy more Small Guns gear and then use MFC weaponry later).
     
  4. Sduibek

    Sduibek Creator of Fallout Fixt Moderator Modder

    Oct 27, 2010
    Yeah, I know. There's gotta be something we can give for Gambling taggers though. :scratch:

    Good points. I'll add that to my To Do list... figure out a way to make big guns and energy weapons useful. i agree, it's always frustrated me that i really want to tag those but it feels shitty doing so because it's just "wasted" for like at least half the game (depending how fast you're going through the game).

    Yeah, it's kind of a crappy deal. I mean there's some tweaking that can be done, and giving of items from skills that gave nothing previously, but you are right -- basically because Fallout has so few items to begin with, only a very small number would make sense for each skill.
     
  5. Eternauta

    Eternauta It Wandered In From the Wastes

    134
    Dec 8, 2010
    I obviously think that it's better to have more items for more variety, but still the low number of weapons and armors in FO1 was not imo the main problem. This was, again, that during half of the game you are forced to rely on certain combat skill and cannot rely on others. It was a pity that this was still true for FO2 and FOT.

    Another problem with editing the Vault Dweller's starting gear: most skills are quite useless :(

    Wild idea appeared: if you've tagged Outdoorsman, you start with a Rope in your inventory :P I guess it kind of makes sense both in a "realism!" way (the Vault is hidden in a mountainous area) as well as about game quests (you could go directly to Vault 15). But again, small impact.
     
  6. Sduibek

    Sduibek Creator of Fallout Fixt Moderator Modder

    Oct 27, 2010
    True true. Well hey, small impact is better than no impact.

    I'll look into making weaker weapons for BG and EW though, that really needs to be done.
    EDIT: Actually, I think if done right that might not be necessary except for BG. Like you said with EW I think if laser pistols and whatnot are available earlier that's already taken care of. The three weapons for the other skill though are so powerful, I think a new one might be needed to balance it. Or maybe a "bad quality" (think item condition) version can be found earlier? Hm. Or like, "portable" version with only one shot (flamer) something like that...
     
  7. NovaRain

    NovaRain Casual Modder Modder

    Mar 10, 2007
    I personally like the Incinerator in New Vegas: a fireball launching cannon, much weaker but has better range than Flamer. Just don't know if it's possible to make the concept work in FO1&2 engines.
     
  8. G-Flex

    G-Flex First time out of the vault

    59
    Apr 28, 2010
    I humbly suggest that if a player starts with First Aid, Traps, and Throwing tagged, they should start off with a bonus cyanide pill.
     
  9. Sduibek

    Sduibek Creator of Fallout Fixt Moderator Modder

    Oct 27, 2010
    lol.

    Throwing gets a lot of shit but I don't know why. Grenades are awesome. You can basically one-hit-kill any robot, and all of them do splash damage. Plasma grenades can be thrown up to four times a round if you've got Fast Shot and whatnot. I've had plasma grenades save my ass lots of times.
     
  10. Sduibek

    Sduibek Creator of Fallout Fixt Moderator Modder

    Oct 27, 2010
    I don't know if these are even used in Fallout 2, but in the Fallout 2 files there is a pistol flamethrower animation (suh-weeeeeet) and a pistol burst animation, and a green spraying pistol animation.

    So, I figure those could be used to make an interesting Big Guns weapons.
     
  11. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    This would be a rather wild, and radical suggestion, but it's what came to mind... What would you think about the prospect of changing the classification of a couple weapons to Big Guns? Specifically Shotguns, I'm thinking. From a "realism" perspective, shotguns have a helluva nasty kick to them, so they take a bit of a different approach to use and maintenance than your standard rifle. From a game mechanics perspective, shotguns are a hard-hitting weapon that you can very easily demolish your adversaries with upon acquisition, but they lack the range of most rifles, and their stopping power pales when compared to the other, end-game weapons. With the obvious exception of the Sawed Off, why not make the other Shotguns (there's only the 2, in FO1, if I'm not forgetting any?) "Lower Tier Big Guns"?

    That's the only thought I had. It would certainly help balance out the great disparity in the number of usable weapons between each Skill category...
     
  12. G-Flex

    G-Flex First time out of the vault

    59
    Apr 28, 2010
    I honestly don't know if "big guns" was ever a good weapon classification to begin with. An assault rifle and a bozar/light support weapon seem a lot more similar than a bozar and a flamethrower.
     
  13. SealyStar

    SealyStar It Wandered In From the Wastes

    109
    Mar 23, 2012
    I always thought that if they should axe one weapon category, it should be energy weapons. There is a rather sizable difference between how one handles an assault rifle compared to a flamethrower, for example. But all of the energy weapons in Fallout, as different in mechanics as they might be, are shaped and handled exactly like a standard firearm. I always though EW should have been axed, and all its weapons reclassified as BGs or SGs.
     
  14. Sduibek

    Sduibek Creator of Fallout Fixt Moderator Modder

    Oct 27, 2010
    However, the maintenance and handling of these weapons would be different. This doesn't have an effect in-game, but whatever the EW equivalent of a jam is, when that occurs, someone with 20% in EW would probably melt their arms off whereas someone skilled would know what to do.
     
  15. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    I think most don't look at it from that standpoint because the in-game affect of the weapon skills is accuracy. If more points in Energy Weapons means that you will have a better chance of hitting your target, then the Skill should only associate with handling. And by that logic, if they handle the same, why differentiate between them? I'm not saying that one is truer than the other, but it certainly gives something to consider.

    Some would argue why not separating the weapons categories by their ammunition, instead? Why not have Ballistics, Explosives, Energy, Fire? Well, if that were their separate designations, then we'd have a really disproportionate list of weapons and weapons skills. Plus, why would one need to be so knowledgeable in Explosives be to able to throw a grenade? Would lack of knowledge in Energy weapons make it any harder to throw a Plasma Grenade? Indeed, separating the skills by your ability to know how to deal with any mishaps they encounter can make sense, it might not make any sense on how that knowledge has any logical application.

    Anyway, pointless thoughts and considerations...
     
  16. dudejo001

    dudejo001 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    150
    Mar 6, 2010
    That one suggestion about axing energy weapons may not be perfect but it inspired me something that's one step closer.

    Instead, we axe Big Guns and move the weapons into Energy Weapons. Obviously, those weapons don't shoot lasers but unlike normal firearms, their firing cycles are generally operated by a separate energy source. Usually some kind of electric motor (a pump for the Flamer, perhaps).

    Although the Rocket Launcher would be a bit harder to justify. It's basically a trigger that cause the projectile's propellant to react, similar to a standard firearm. While it's a relatively bulky weapon, the Rocket Launcher could possibly classify as a Small Gun because by its very nature, it's a recoil-less weapon.
     
  17. Lexx

    Lexx Background Radiant
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    That... is a really bad idea. The big guns in the games really have nothing to do with energy weapons, even if you try to imagine some sort of electric motor.

    Besides, taking out a skill won't work anyway. You will have to replace it with something else and then you will have the same skill redundancy thing again, just under a different name.
     
  18. dudejo001

    dudejo001 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    150
    Mar 6, 2010
    I'm not imagining the electric motor. That's exactly how the minigun in Predator worked behind the scenes. It was hooked-up to a couple of car batteries.

    Since it operates on batteries, it'll most likely have electrical circuitry comparable to those in a laser or plasma weapon. Speaking of which, laser and plasma technology is nothing alike and yet they use the same skillset.

    What would you suggest, then?
     
  19. Sduibek

    Sduibek Creator of Fallout Fixt Moderator Modder

    Oct 27, 2010
    Leave the skills as-is, perhaps adding a few items like I discussed with the flame pistol or timed availability of items etc such as earlier access to laser pistol.

    Sometimes flawed design cannot be fixed without a massive overhaul of the entire game itself, which of course is not worth it.
     
  20. Dude101

    Dude101 Vault Fossil
    Modder

    Aug 3, 2005
    That is actually a good idea for a diplomat build. It would add a sense of urgency to your words.