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Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by Odin, Aug 13, 2004.
Raveing? No, well, CCR but thats just him...
Murderous Crazies? Yeah, theres a few of us around.
welcome im one of the neutral ones iv'v never play yours games besthada developerws so therfore my opinion is nuetral im all for giving you a chance but if you mess it up best be ready to run for th hills
I'm amazed how everyone assumes that Fallout 3 will be JUST LIKE Morrowind.
Whether or not you like Bethesda's existing games, I will give Bethesda credit for listening to their fanbase and being honest. I may not like some of the decisions they've made, but they haven't lied to their fans.
They promise it won't be Morrowind with guns, and other than that, we don't really know anything. I too think they're leaning towards using TES:4 engine, but you can take a 3D engine, and have a moveable camera that will allow a 3rd person chase-cam, temporary first person to be immersive, and a lockable isometric view.
Will they go that route? Who knows, but I sure hope so.
Throw out that chase cam and first person crap and i'd say it might be doable.
I am amazed how you assume that's what everyone does.
How many Bethesda games do you know? I know a couple, and they are all first person and have the distinct feature of a large, somewhat bland and empty game world which was repeatedly criticized. Which leads to another problem: Lack of development. It was voiced with Terminator: Skynet, the successor to Future Shock, and Morrowind suffered from several of Daggerfall's flaws.
Who said Fallout 3 would be JUST LIKE Morrowind anyway? That isn't the problem. Fallout 3 not being JUST LIKE Morrowind wouldn't really be a great quality.
I don't know about that. Their fanbase is their fanbase because they like the games Bethesda makes. So far noone has backed this claim up, or specified what it means.
What is more, I give a flying fuck about Bethesda's fanbase. Would you be referring to the people who want Diablo2-style combat or those who'd like to explore "the Fallout universe" in first person?
Gee, so THAT is what they are listening to? Swell.
That statement just doesn't really mean anything. They haven't said what they are doing, which is far more important.
Well it is nice to see that the developers are lurking about here...
I don't know much about Bethesda... I only know Fallout... loooooove Fallout... passionate about it.
Anyway, I'll try to hold back on a long long post about what I'd like in the game... I been thinking about what I'd do waaay to long... must... refrain...
ah there... back to normal.
Welcome... Like I said don't know much about Beth... so I'm not too judgemental... just worried like I would be with anyone doing the game.
I think it was Beth. Nobody ever said Fallout 3 would be like Morrowind with guns. People weren't that afraid about Fallout 3 being like Morrowind, people were and are afraid of Fallout 3 NOT being like FALLOUT.
I've seen at least 10 different people on Bethesda site use the term "Morrowind with guns" and a few "Morrowind with mutants". I think Feargie even made a reference to it as well.
You ask if my claim about Bethesda is founded, well I frequented their site for years and followed the production of Morrowind. They asked what people wanted, and implemented it. When people complained about Morrowind, they tried to address those issues in the expansion packs.
If you think Morrowind is an empty game world, you've obviously never played it for more than two hours. You can literally play the game and expansion packs for hundreds of hours. I know people who've played the same character for two years straight and still play the game.
The dialogue and combat system are poor. I don't care for how you level up, but there is boatloads of content in that game.
Agreed on that (besides the leveling part, i think that was one of morrowind's more glaring flaws), tough i think people are reffering more to the quality of that content when they speak of empty, there are a lot of characters, dungeons, "vistas" (sightseeing was my favorite part of that game)... but it all felt a bit "soulless" at least for me.
In other words, it's STILL too much like Arena. There's a SHITLOAD of lore in the game, don't get me wrong. The problem is that it is presented wrong, and it needs to be worked on. I hope that they have since learned from previous gripes about the game world, throughout the series, and improve upon it to raise their basic design a little higher in quality.
There is too much presented in a way that I frankly don't give a fuck about because it pretty much has nothing to do with the player's involvement in the game. It would also be good if they were interesting half of the time, but we're not even given that relief. Yes, it does seem more "realistic" if you can read every book and there's some valuable information written in some. However, that's not very fun at all, especially when some might have some valuable information, but you've just been through a number of books that really have no context to your experience in the game, and you REALLY don't care to read about yet another few pages involving yet another set of nouns with tangential connections to gameplay at best. A summary, if it's not important, would be a vast relief.
In Fallout, the lore was presented in a way that you really wanted to know what went on because it does pertain to your survival in the wasteland, and you had to work for it a little bit. The Glow, Necropolis, and other locations throughout the game gave up tidbits of information that built up to a bigger backstory and also tied in with current events in the game world.
But...seriously, none of the characters in Morrowind feel remotely alive, so the whole setting feels hollow. You can't write a good CRPG with cookie-cutter characters. It doesn't feel like a world, it feels like I'm running through a filing cabinet. It got to one point where I was going to have to try a mod someone made that changed the first town into something a little less Return of the Living Dead. Sorry, but the last time I had to do that was for a BioWare product (not hard to do, considering their pathetic coding ability and Excuse Boy). That tends to put a bitter taste in my mouth, sorry.
After that, it tends to break things down, and frankly the game's mechanics really don't feel that enjoyable to me to warrant wandering around in a world that feels dead. I have other games I wish to experience in this lifetime, versus having my character on autorun in a building to get a decent movement speed, thank you. It's bad when you have to exploit the interface to approach "playable" game conditions.
I know some people who are still playing Daggerfall every day. They are also being treated for an Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.
I don't think it is neccessarily a good thing if developers put everything in just because "the fans" demand it.
"Fans" tend to think they know what they want, but usually what they say what they want doesn't equal what would be a good thing to add in.
That's because gamers don't make games. Developers do. Talking with the audience is of course a valuable source of ideas, but those ideas need to be refined before they should go anywhere near the game.
And then there's the problem of the audience consisting of different groups of individuals who all have individual ideas of what would be great to add. If you asked at GameSpy, many people would agree that it's a great idea to add half-naked chicks, plasma saws and pirates, but we've seen what that can lead to.
There are only few people I personally would trust when it comes to thinking up new stuff for a game, Roshambo would most certainly be one of them, but TehRandomHaxx0r2k most likely wouldn't (apologies to everyone named TehRandomHaxx0r2k, I did not mean any of you in particular).
Yeah, this is good stuff. This needs to find its way to the developer's bulleting board.
I like Morrowind, but that's mainly because I have a runaway imagination and can "force" myself to roleplay and to ignore the repetitive conversations. I also like the leveling system - to increase a skill either use it or train it. You can't become a better magic user sneaking around stabbing things.
There is a distinct possibility, though, that the developers at Bethesda are sick and tired of making TES games and are looking forward to doing something different. ARENA was a pretty awesome accomplishment in its time and the rest of the series is basically molded from that. Just like Fallout fans want another fallout, TES fans wanted another TES game and they got it.
And WTF does what "Feargie" says prove? Oh right, nothing whatsoever. But maybe you want to make us believe he read the Fallout threads on the Bethesda forums thoroughly because he has nothing better to do - rather than simply quoting a catchphrase which has gained undeserved popularity.
Furthermore, several people purposefully tried to stir up shit on the Bethesda forums (and elsewhere), many post were obvious trolling attempts and the posters do not deserve to be called Fallout fans. See also Saint_Proverbius' comments on the matter.
One problem with the Bethesda forums is, too many TES fans feel like voicing an opinion although they don't actually give a shit. They speak out on how Fallout 3 should be made just to piss off Fallout fans, don't care to have an informed opinion and repeat the drivel they heard somewhere, and they keep circle-jerking and confirming each other on that their opinion is right. I even witnessed a debate between people that can't be counted as die-hard Fallout fans which are actually highly in favour of Bethesda and changing Fallout being interrupted by another wave of trolls feeling the need to lecture "Fallout fans" and complain about how the Fallout threads are just used to complain and bitch about Bethesda, totally missing the fact that all these so-called die-hard fans had stopped posting long ago and the last thread(s) consisted almost exclusively of posts by people who did everything other than bash Bethesda.
Actually most so-called debates about "Morrowind with guns" and the whole "Bethesda vs. Fallout 3" issue had been started not by complaining "Fallout fans" but Morrowind fans feeling the urge to lecture the die-hard Fallout fans.
See also -> ignorance, -> informed opinion (lack of), -> your previous post
Well, actually my comment had two different meanings, and you decided to adress the one I didn't emphasize.
So if some TES fanboys want "Fallout in FP" and I want an overview perspective, what will Bethesda do? If some dudes ask for Diablo2-like action, and I want roundbased combat, how will Bethesda react? I don't know about that. One reason I am not happy with Bethesda getting Fallout is because they have a different design philosophy and fans that like things the way they do it, which isn't how I like things done, as opposed to other companies which may not have to be convinced to do things more like I'd like it and don't have fans who speak in favour of "Morrowind with guns" just for the fun of it.
Ah, thank god you aren't being childish or anything. I guess "shallow and superficial" would have been more appropriate to describe Morrowind but I was of course referring in part to Terminator: Future Shock, which was pretty empty and desolate - which was allright for the setting - and to Daggerfall, which I don't know myself but is repeatedly referred to as empty, shallow and similar even by fans.
Morrowind wasn't empty, but sometimes felt empty nonetheless, and that's also what inspired so many people to make mods to liven up Morrowind. Heck, plenty of dedicated fans explicitly stated that Morrowind felt empty, dead or lifeless.
Moreover, where Morrowind didn't feel empty it felt overcrowded. The higher my level, the more the roads were infested by dangerous mobs, even close to the city walls. I can't express with words how badly that sucked. It sucked because of the lack of localized mobs, it sucked because the mobs would appear where there were no movs before, it sucked because I couldn't even travel between two locations close to each other without fighting all the time, and that sucked badly.
So, you know people who sill play the game after two years? And of course they all don't use mods because Morrowind is so rich that there is no need to screw around with it.
Oh, and I do not appreciate having to buy an expansion to adress problems of the game. Care to send me the expansions for free to convince me that Morrowind doesn't suck? No? Then I will judge the game as it is, not as it might be.
Well, Fallout also has a rudimentary keyword system which would benefit from Morrowind's design.
I do care how you level up, and I didn't appreciate how conscious Morrowind made me of the fact that how much attribute points I gained per level up depended on which skills I used. The whole skill and leveling system is thoroughly flawed in many ways.
right, it'd be brilliant if Bethesda adopts that attitude, decides Fallout fans don't really know what they want, and excludes turn-based or isometric or whatever else because it "isn't a good thing to add", wouldn't it?
Exactly what I was thinking.
And again I am being misunderstood.
I did not state fans (lacking a better term do describe people who played a game and like it) are always dumb. The thing is that many fans only promote features, which, if all of them were implemented, would lead to featuritis, which is a Bad Thing (tm).
The good approach is taking a look at why people liked a game rather than what they say they liked about it.
I'm not going to claim a non-3rd person perspective would work out, but I do say that it can be done as good in 3D as it was done in 2D (although that really is a question of the engine).
If I'm not mistaken Age of Mythology is a good example of this. 3D engine, isometric view, along with cutscenes that zoom in to view the conversations at varying angles and distances. With 3D its easier to get different elevations as well, something I always thought would improve the tactical combat.
Ugh. Zooming in and changing the camera angles for cutscenes is usually an attempt at saving money because it's cheaper than producing actual renders.
If FO3's dialogs will look like those in NWN, I'm definitely going to rethink mailbombing Bethesda.
My point really had nothing to do with cutscenes.....I was just providing an example of 3D technology that wasn't first person or third person camera-right-behind-the-PC. It can be done and done well.
Cutscenes are neat, but they're not going to make or break a game for me.
Cutscenes, well, for me they're like a treat you get for accoplishing something big, say, finishing a chapter.
In NWN this was totally ruined by still images animated to float around, sort of. Very well painted still images, I'll grant you that, but nothing that made me want to sit with a Coke and just get swept away by a great cinematic, á la Blizzard.
But while playing, I wouldn't want to get suddenly ripped out of the 3D engine for a cinematic, to put the cutscene in there, using the same technology that the actual engine uses is a very nice idea.
For me, this makes the game flow a lot smoother, and as 3d models get more and more polygons to play with, in addition to normal maps, bumpmapping, pixel and vertex shading and so on, soon enough we'll have games with some amazing in game graphics.
Just take a look at the new Unreal technology (for one). I can't remember the numbers, but wasn't it something like a character is now able to use as many polygons as an entire map in Unreal I?