I... really, really like Fallout 4. Oh, god.

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by Magnus, Nov 12, 2015.

  1. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    Now, think about this for a second. What is the fundamental difference between skills and perks? There isn't one, really. Every time you level up, you get a (perkpoint/skillpoint) that you put in a (perk/skill), and it makes you better at (science/medicine/guns/talking etc...).

    The way I see it, the perks in Fallout 4 are the skills, just a bit confusingly laid out. If you invest, say, 100 points in Guns in New Vegas, you will do a lot more damage with guns. This is the equivalent of spending 5 perk points on gun-related perks in Fallout 4, in which case you will also do a lot more damage with guns, but it will be the guns that you chose to spend perks for, like say if you invested 3 of them in the Sniper perk, one in the no-scope accuracy perk and one in the non-automatic Rifles perk, you would have a completely different build than one who spent all of them on pistols.

    Furthermore, the benefits you would gain from the perks are much more diverse than just a flat hit bonus or damage. They range from armor piercing, knockdowns, ammo use, accuracy, pretty much anything you could think of regarding the "skill" that they're related to.

    So in conclusion, the skills are an unnecessary abstraction that don't help to define your character any further than what can be achieved with perks. Saying that a character can heal crippled limbs with stimpaks and has 20% armor penetration with revolvers is more describing than saying he has 25 Medic skill and 50 Guns skill.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  2. phipboy

    phipboy Newly elected overseer

    209
    Oct 2, 2015
    Not really. There is a massive difference. You are committed to one perk every time you level up instead of spreading the skill points out to many skills. You can put them all in one if you want. Up to you. Again, you don't HAVE to invest 100 points in GUns in New vegas. Perks in the other games were unique because you get one every level next to your skills. They did something unique and it worked, most of the time. They don't have to do anything super amazing since you already got skills. Contrary to what you have said there are for example many perks that are just straight percentage increases and the others aren't really unique either, are they? Skills might be an unnecessary abstraction but is it a bad system? Absolutely not. Many ways to improve it as well. THe way I see it perks in Fallout 4 is just dumbing down the game no matter how you look at it. Tying skills to perks is just backwards and removes a large amount of strategy from the game. Skills+perks are much MUCH better at defining your character than perks, period. I just don't see your reasoning, sorry.. :/

    Besides how exactly does it even make sense to have armor penetration as a perk? It would make way more sense to have it as a type of ammunition right? At least with medicine you can kind of argue that perhaps the player knows how to use stimpacks more effectively, but armor penetration? That makes no sense. 25 Medic skill or 50 Guns skill make perfect sense because it's just increasing your effectiveness with medicine and weapons.

    Also repair too is something that might have been implemented poorly but isn't necessarily a bad mechanic. It's something that can actually be implemented very well in the game (by Obsidian perhaps) by having it in the Weapons workbench thingy, similar to how you can repair your power armor there. You just gotta change how the condition of weapons change the stats, etc. Make it less severe. Maybe also make the weapons last longer. You can do a lot of things with it and just makes the player think more you know.

    E: In conclusion when I leveled up in my first run it basically felt completely pointless. You just amass together as many perks as you can until you feel something happening. Doesn't really help "defining" your character when leveling up feels completely pointless now. You don't even feel like you're going in any direction.

    Oh yeah I also want to mention how there's certain perks like Gun Nut that you HAVE to get if you want to actually do something in the game. That's pretty absurd.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  3. RangerBoo

    RangerBoo Resident Schizo Poster

    Jun 15, 2015
    Hey some people really love bad movies like The Room, Birdemic, Troll 2, Roadhouse or even The Happening I don't see whats wrong with liking a bad game in the same way so long as you admit its flaws and that its not very good. Some times dumb fun can be fun. :wink:
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
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  4. phipboy

    phipboy Newly elected overseer

    209
    Oct 2, 2015
    Yeah I just hope all this potential for something great can be realized with Obsidian's Fallout spin-off (MAYBE). Only problem so far is the leveling up system and dialogue system. Fix those and maybe add a few new things (like weapon repairing as I said earlier) and you got yourself a game that's fun if you just want mindless shooting raiders and shit and great as a true Fallout game (if it's made by Obsidian that is).
     
  5. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    You are all a bunch of cantankerous, recalcitrant naysayers, and I'm going back to the Fallout General Modding subforum, because at least in threads about hexadecimal numbers and script extenders I will be free from reading arguments solely supported by personal bias and nonsensical bile.
     
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  6. phipboy

    phipboy Newly elected overseer

    209
    Oct 2, 2015
    Umm.. No. It's totally fine if you disagree with me and I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of disagreeing with you.

    If it helps, perhaps you tell me how did your experience go with the leveling up system? Did you feel like it was a good system over-all that made you think and made you feel like you've actually improved in a certain direction?

    I'm not the best person to discuss these things. Others know better for sure.

    E: Also "we're" not a hivemind. "We" here are people who don't browse this subforum 24/7 and shit on every new person. I've only come to this forum recently too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  7. randy Mc rupp

    randy Mc rupp INTERNET HATE MACHINE

    159
    May 6, 2007
    Apparently Fallout 4 brings out the worst from otherwise sane and reasonable people.
     
  8. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Pretty much.

    I can certainly see how Fallout 4 can be honestly entertaining. The settlement-building and free-roaming can be a lot of fun to some people. Personally, I'm not really in the mood for that kind of gameplay right now (the crafting, that is; free-roaming is fine), so right now Fallout 4 is a bit boring to me.
    But I can definitely see it as a big fat time-sink. Well, after a metric ton of patches.
     
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  9. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    Well, my first and currently only character is a brainy type with 6 strength and 9 intelligence (I made a thread about him here), and his other stats are kinda crap. Here's roughly how I've played with him:

    1. Study perk chart for half an hour. Decide that I can't make sense of it, and will save levels until I know what playstyle I want.
    2. Play the game and discover that gun mods are awesome, but that you need Gun Nut in order to make gun mods.
    3. Pick Gun Nut. Discover that you need to scrap junk for materials for gun mods.
    4. Pick Scrapper to increase gained scrap. Run around Concord to look for junk, realize that I can't open safes.
    5. Pick Locksmith so I can open safes. Play until I find Power Armor, fall in love with it.
    6. Pick Armorer so I can trick out my Power Armor.

    That's about as far as I've gone, but now I realize that I've progressed into a sort of well-armored looter and crafter build. I need a weapon, though. Since I took Gun Nut I'll probably not go for Energy Weapons, and my Perception is too low to do anything with sniper rifles or explosives (I refuse to spend perks on increasing SPECIALs until I really have to), but since I do have the strength for it I'm thinking about taking Heavy weapons, with Melee ones as backup. My Minigun is out of ammo, so my next perk will be either Blacksmith (melee weapon mods) or the one that increases melee damage. I like the Power Armor so I'll also be getting the perk that gives them longer-lasting fuel, but for now I'll focus on my melee skills.

    So, I can't say it feels any different from how I would normally level up my character in an RPG. It's not a marked improvement over a skill system done well, but if the skills' only function are as a prerequisite for picking perks (which they are in Bethesda's games), then you might as well not have them and only go with the perks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  10. berlin1945

    berlin1945 First time out of the vault

    48
    Oct 4, 2015
    obviously your brain has been stolen by a space leech. it's the only explanation.
     
  11. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Admin

    May 27, 2004
    Aint no shame in liking a game, lads. :monocle:

    At least he's getting his money's worth.
    So keep this thread respectful. No need for personal attacks.
     
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  12. AskWazzup

    AskWazzup Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2008
  13. ShiftyPrick

    ShiftyPrick First time out of the vault

    9
    Aug 9, 2015
    I went through a low level area looking for aluminium, I knew there was some there I just left it there at the time. Then some low level raider with a auto pipe pistol started firing at and I could hear the bullets bouncing off off my power Armour if this was new Vegas or fallout 3 I could probably hear my bones break and my character wince despite wearing what was the most powerful armour the US military could create at the time. if nothing else, they definitely got they power armour.
     
  14. Al C4pone

    Al C4pone First time out of the vault

    26
    Feb 12, 2012
    in meantime i replay fallout 1 and right now im about to safe tandi from the khans with minimum 3 possible ways to do it , while fo4 gave me how many options other then boom boom boom oh and charisma check ... great rpg fo4 GOTY nah its game of the decade mindblowing role-playing-game that is revolutionary. -thanks todd
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
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  15. Mutoes

    Mutoes Mildly Dipped

    518
    Feb 5, 2008
    Realtime shooting mechanics, item/location designs and exploration and looting to some degree are the things that the game has going for it. If youre the type of guy who likes those things im not suprised youre having fun. I think its still (barely) above average game in my books just because it has lot to do compared to many games with similar price tag (and i personally just enjoy the theme and designs that much). Too bad i played new vegas recently and i cant help but feel absolutely unsatisfied and ultimately empty every time people speak and i do quests in this game, everything feels so unenthusiastic and i often feel like i want to punch every wooden and plastic person in the face in this game. i wish i could do a proper murdering psycho runtrough in this game with some funny ending slides.

    Edit: Might as well do a bit more ranting here since i started. Man i just dont understand why they needed to do the voiced protagonist. I never saw anyone complaining how they felt that f3 or new vegas needed voiced protag. So much wasted resources and money. Im guessing the dialogue wheel is the way it is now because beth likely thought it would feel silly to first read a sentence and then listen it immediately afterwards again and thus people would just skip the voice acting to get to the response, which ofc is what would happen and make the voice acting unnecessary.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2015
  16. Taskeen

    Taskeen It Wandered In From the Wastes

    191
    Jul 27, 2007
    Here's the thing though - it is entirely possible for a game to have great writing, choices, questing, etc. no matter how the game works mechanically.

    My favorite examples are the Witcher series. Each game is fairly different in style and scope, but what did they retain? It doesn't take long to guess - they retained and exceeded in each title, from the very first:


    • in telling an engaging story you want to see what happens at the end,
    • giving the player choices that really do matter (even carrying over to the next games),
    • offering side quests that are actually 'interesting' telling their own sub-stories and sometimes as an extra tying into the main plot even though they are optional
    • fairly consistent universe

    CD Projekt managed this despite changing, each time, in how big the world was or even how combat worked. The Witcher 1, for instance, has a unique hybrid combat that mirrors a cross between classic type game combat and newer games around the period it was released. Their latest iteration was their first 'open-world' concept, again changing combat to be fluid with a focus on action, but still requiring skill - despite the mechanical changes they remained consistent with superb storytelling, creating great characters you care for, making side-quests even more interesting/complex/unique, etc and so forth.

    Ok, now that we have the CD Projekt stroking out of the way, when we look at the Fallout games the obvious difference is the style/scope/mechanical differences from the switch from Tactical to FPS. However, what FO3 somewhat tried to retain was choice (but really failed on meaningful levels), but New Vegas did better in trying to fix those issues.

    Now we have FO4, which has tried again to increase scope while trying to fix other areas such as first-person perspective combat, adding other content such as crafting, voiced dialogue (not really a "fix"), etc. - but by a combination of design decisions has failed on the absolute core of FO (that is the choice to resolve the situation in multiple ways), especially for an RPG series.

    As an example, let's look at a specific area and quest in the beginning of the game (SPOILERS):

    Museum of Freedom

    In this area you can help the local residents in getting rid of the raiders in this area and if you do the citizens will give you a quest. What choice do we have here exactly to resolving this situation?


    • By killing

    What are the problems here? Well that's pretty obvious right away, since you have one choice to A. Do Nothing, can't attacked by Raiders or B. Kill them, get a quest.

    - The enemies are purely cannon fodder, there is no exploring of who they are or what their motives may be
    - It forces the world to revolve around you, your PC is supposed to 'care' and help these people with only the one option to 'saving' them from raiders
    - There is no way to continue the main story unless you actually help them even though character is supposed to be a blank slate

    If you want to play as a Pacifist you already screwed. IF you are hoping to be able speak with someone leading these Raiders by using means dialogue to figure out what the hell is going on, you can't. (missed opportunities for skill checks/dialogue - intelligence, perception, charisma, etc.) Want to be evil and join the Raiders? No, not an option. Want to trick them or otherwise carefully diffuse the situation? No, not an option.

    Let's move on to what solving this quests leads to:

    When Freedom Calls

    So the only way to get this quest is one pathway to reach the Minutemen holed up the building. And of course, as explained earlier, a bunch of hostile no-name Raiders are in your way. What does this all lead to?

    OF course, learning about some Power Armor to "deal" with the remaining Raiders. What choice do we have here exactly to resolving this situation?


    • Surely by the now the PC is questioning his/her existence... oh yeah that's right they are "military" so the only solution is killing obviously
    The obvious problems here are AGAIN total lack of in-depth ways to resolve this. You can not suggest to Preston Gravy that the situation could perhaps be resolved through bargaining or dialogue. Nothing else is explored here with any Skill Checks.

    - Again, resolving this situation and quest is by more body count made easier with Power Armor, because of course you're military and this shit is easy!
    - Who are these Raiders again? And why should I care about any of this? Oh well, kill stuff. Maybe they have families that are starving? Don't know, pull the trigger.

    Already I can think of many ways this could have been WAY better explored by offering as many choices as possible.

    - Guns blazing

    or

    - Using 'Intelligence' to parley with the Raiders and explore their goals/interests
    - Using 'Agility' or 'Perception' to disguise yourself as a Raider, infiltrate their group and find out what they are doing here (this could even branch off into joining the raiders instead to simply say FUCK it and help them kill every last Minuteman; OR sneakily causing chaos within their ranks, turning them against one another; or simply trying to get them to abandon the area in some way)
    - or a Neutral approach by not siding with any of them and simply getting the hell out of there


    Except there is none of that. And it repeats ad naseum throughout the whole damn game from many quests already posted on guides. The game fundamentally doubles down on dialing way, way back on choice and very limited approach to these situations. It's more or less like playing a Fallout game; that pretends to be an RPG (there is some dialogue choices so it must be an RPG or something right!), but feels more like a linear FPS game (if going mission to mission, rather than "exploring") where the choice is simply how you are going to kill some Raiders as with the above examples.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2015
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  17. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Painstakingly Based & Cringe

    Sep 11, 2010
    I really don't get why people enjoy crafting so much. Either it isn't worth it or it becomes a crucial element of the game. In the former it feels pointless and in the latter I grow resentful of it. I don't like having to memorize dozens of materials and schematics for a bunch of garbage just so that I can sit in front of a boring sloppy crafting screen and min/max around. I've never really enjoyed crafting. I've always just found it to be in the way of the proper gameplay. And Fallout 4 seems to be 60% gunning shit down, 20% hiking, 15% crafting and 5% misc. Way too much crafting for my taste.
     
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  18. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    Yeah crafting is boring and nonsensical. While it's not too bad, it's kind of ridiculous how much the game relies on crafting.
     
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  19. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Gyro Captain

    304
    Dec 11, 2013
    Kind of makes you wonder why Bethesda bothers with plotlines at all - they should just make a pure open world sandbox, with lots of flashy guns and exploration, and no plot or semblance of a plot. Just build your character, drop them into the world, and run around picking up loot, blowing people's heads off, and hiking. No quests, no real dialogue beyond combat taunts, no endgame.

    This would play to their strengths, rather than their weaknesses (i.e. writing of any kind). Best of all, there would be no need for them to confuse fans of RPGs; they could just call it a sandbox FPS (with crafting).
     
  20. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    A bit of dialogue and yeah I agree to that.