League of Legends

[SnapSlav]

Read the last paragraph of my post

I did read it, and that's what I was addressing. People have expressed fondness to LoL on these boards before, but they still didn't make a thread dedicated to it. You came along and did that, and now you're saying you don't wanna play it. I was pointing out what's amusing about that.

I also didn't try to praise Riot's system of earning money, but I just find it clever of them that with a system this rotten, they still have the largest amount of play time per week of a multiplayer game.

You called it "a brilliant move", which is a compliment. Even if you were being sarcastic or ironic or scathing (which I addressed in my post) it's still a compliment. Also, they do NOT have "the largest amount of play time per wekk of a multiplayer game", that's a myth. LoL's numbers have a history of being doctored just like the numbers of cigarette-related deaths get doctored. It's not untrue that LoL enjoys one OF the highest rates of play as any other MP game, but they've been knocked down from the top (if they ever held the top) a long time ago. DotA2 has more subscribers than LoL and sees more weekly activity than LoL and players make much more money competing in DotA2 tournaments than LoL (TI3 alone had almost $3million in total prize pool), but LoL is still far more widely known (for now). It's the fact that they AREN'T dominating the eSports scene that I pointed out that Riot's methods are self-harm-inflicting. They're short-sighted, and they're paying for that right about now.

Oh, and my name is The Sixth Ranger

Yes, I called you that, didn't I?

 

[The Sixth Ranger]

Read the last paragraph of my post

I did read it, and that's what I was addressing. People have expressed fondness to LoL on these boards before, but they still didn't make a thread dedicated to it. You came along and did that, and now you're saying you don't wanna play it. I was pointing out what's amusing about that.

I also didn't try to praise Riot's system of earning money, but I just find it clever of them that with a system this rotten, they still have the largest amount of play time per week of a multiplayer game.

You called it "a brilliant move", which is a compliment. Even if you were being sarcastic or ironic or scathing (which I addressed in my post) it's still a compliment. Also, they do NOT have "the largest amount of play time per wekk of a multiplayer game", that's a myth. LoL's numbers have a history of being doctored just like the numbers of cigarette-related deaths get doctored. It's not untrue that LoL enjoys one OF the highest rates of play as any other MP game, but they've been knocked down from the top (if they ever held the top) a long time ago. DotA2 has more subscribers than LoL and sees more weekly activity than LoL and players make much more money competing in DotA2 tournaments than LoL (TI3 alone had almost $3million in total prize pool), but LoL is still far more widely known (for now). It's the fact that they AREN'T dominating the eSports scene that I pointed out that Riot's methods are self-harm-inflicting. They're short-sighted, and they're paying for that right about now.

Oh, and my name is The Sixth Ranger

Yes, I called you that, didn't I?

It wasn't meant as a heartfelt compliment, I am definetely not someone who likes models that harm to user. But, you know, 'respect your enemy' and all that. Also, I think you called me The Sixth Sense before editing your post.

 

[PlanHex]

And PlanHex, I don't get what your usage of those GIF/emote combination imply.

They imply smugness about the fact that you were trying to dispute my factually correct statements about champion selection counters with factually incorrect statements, while condescendingly saying that I should endeavour to be factually correct when disputing your statements.
The first (unicode) generally means something like "Oh, well! Isn't this paradoxical?"
For the other two, I think their image titles speak for themselves ("Haters gonna hate" and "I am smugness, hear me roar" respectively)

SnapSlav, I agree with you fully. The champion roster is actually a brilliant move on Riot's part.

''Only have bad champions? Getting frustrated because other champions annihilate you with a single sneeze? Well, buy them with Real Money then! What's that, you say? That's paying to win? Nonsense, you can unlock them all for free!''

You forgot the most important thing, the riot point system.
Here's the cost of RP in EUR:

400RP 	840RP 	1780RP 	3620RP 	6450RP 	9300RP
€2.50 	€5.00 	€10.00 	€20.00 	€35.00 	€50.00

And here's the champion cost in (non-discounted) RP/IP along with the number of champs:

260 RP/450 IP: 11
585 RP/1350 IP: 21
790 RP/3150 IP: 25 
880 RP/4800 IP: 26
975 RP/6300 IP: 33

Notice anything glaringly obvious about these intervals and the way it's set up so you have to go to higher payment tiers and almost always have RP left over anyway constituting a non-refundable investment that may prompt you to pump more money into the system in order to "get the fullest of your investment"?
Not to mention the "points" abstraction to make people shut their eyes and shove their fingers in their ears and go "LALALALA I'M NOT SPENDING REAL MONEY".

It's less smart though, since they basically just stole the idea from Microsoft and the 360 online store.

 

[The Sixth Ranger]

And PlanHex, I don't get what your usage of those GIF/emote combination imply.

They imply smugness about the fact that you were trying to dispute my factually correct statements about champion selection counters with factually incorrect statements, while condescendingly saying that I should endeavour to be factually correct when disputing your statements.

SnapSlav, I agree with you fully. The champion roster is actually a brilliant move on Riot's part.

''Only have bad champions? Getting frustrated because other champions annihilate you with a single sneeze? Well, buy them with Real Money then! What's that, you say? That's paying to win? Nonsense, you can unlock them all for free!''

You forgot the most important thing, the riot point system.
Here's the cost of RP in EUR:

400RP 	840RP 	1780RP 	3620RP 	6450RP 	9300RP
€2.50 	€5.00 	€10.00 	€20.00 	€35.00 	€50.00

And here's the champion cost in (non-discounted) RP/IP along with the number of champs:

260 RP/450 IP: 11
585 RP/1350 IP: 21
790 RP/3150 IP: 25 
880 RP/4800 IP: 26
975 RP/6300 IP: 33

Notice anything glaringly obvious about these intervals and the way it's set up so you have to go to higher payment tiers and almost always have RP left over anyway constituting a non-refundable investment that may prompt you to pump more money into the system in order to "get the fullest of your investment"?
Not to mention the "points" abstraction to make people shut their eyes and shove their fingers in their ears and go "LALALALA I'M NOT SPENDING REAL MONEY".

It's less smart though, since they basically just stole the idea from Microsoft and the 360 online store.

My point is, it still works, even though it is glaringly obvious that it is a poor system. I have to give them some credit that they have managed to draw in several million players hook, line and sinker.

 

[PlanHex]

I didn't say it isn't effective. It is, since it's not that obvious when you're just browsing the client and want certain champs or whatever partly because of the points abstraction (otherwise, who the hell would buy anything?), I meant that it is only glaringly obvious upon closer inspection.

 

[SnapSlav]

And PlanHex, I don't get what your usage of those GIF/emote combination imply.

They imply smugness about the fact that you were trying to dispute my factually correct statements about champion selection counters with factually incorrect statements, while condescendingly saying that I should endeavour to be factually correct when disputing your statements.
The first (unicode) generally means something like "Oh, well! Isn't this paradoxical?"
For the other two, I think their image titles speak for themselves ("Haters gonna hate" and "I am smugness, hear me roar" respectively)

I still don't see or get what you mean. You make is sound as if I used factually incorrect information in my responses to your statements, which is absolutely not the case. The way I'm reading it, unless you're being thickly ironic, is that you're being supremely smug in assuming I'm somehow wrong when I corrected your mistakes. Furthermore, there's absolutely nothing condescending in the slightest, whatsoever, in saying that I'm open to anyone telling me I've made a mistake, as long as it's genuine and not someone bullshitting/trolling. If I have to somehow be condescending because I have no interest in anyone's trolling, then that's just something else I don't get.

 

[The Sixth Ranger]

Back on subject, I would like to ask the veteran LoL players (if there are any here) if you agree with the Tribunal system. If you don't know what this is (unlikely if you are a veteran player), the Tribunal is a collection of players, who judge people who have broken the rules. They are given a case, and will recommend the punishment for the rule breaker to Riot, who give the final verdict. I would like to hear other peoples' opinions on this, as I find it quite an interesting system.

 

[PlanHex]

I still don't see or get what you mean. You make is sound as if I used factually incorrect information in my responses to your statements, which is absolutely not the case. The way I'm reading it, unless you're being thickly ironic, is that you're being supremely smug in assuming I'm somehow wrong when I corrected your mistakes.

There must've been some sort of communication mix-up here.
Let's go over this again.
Relevant quotes here:

Their curious answer is to not restrict Champion choice across teams (if one side picks Draven, the other side can pick Draven to "counter" him)

This is only true for blind pick where you can't see what the other side has chosen, which means there's no countering going on anyway.

In the context of the problem with counters, Champion picks allowing for doubles is a problem on all modes. If anything, it's not "only true for blink pick", but rather "blind pick is the only exception" BECAUSE you'd only pick a double by coincidence.

Then I repeated what I just said, but added more detail and started being trollish because of the last line of that post, which I interpreted as hostile.

With that out the way, let me repeat:
What you said does NOT apply to Draft mode, the only mode available where you can see what the enemy team is picking and thus the only mode where counters are relevant. Also the only mode available for ranked play.

After bans have been dispensed by both sides, the teams will begin the draft process. During play, draft picks will be exclusive, meaning that a drafted champion will not be available for play by the opposing team.

Quote taken from here: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Draft_Pick

Furthermore, there's absolutely nothing condescending in the slightest, whatsoever, in saying that I'm open to anyone telling me I've made a mistake, as long as it's genuine and not someone bullshitting/trolling. If I have to somehow be condescending because I have no interest in anyone's trolling, then that's just something else I don't get.

As I said, I misinterpreted the tone of that last line. Hard to get across in text.
But try to read your own posts again, now that you know you were wrong and might see why I thought it made you sound like a giant asshole, who was refusing to see reason. Hence why I was acting trollish.
Now, let's forget about all this and chalk it all up to a simple misunderstanding.

 

[The_Onesin]

Well Regarding the F2P model of LoL it's just tons better than those Nexon games I grew up with in Korea. You guys have yet to see what's the true ultimate 'pay to win' models .

Also yes I think I did make wrong comparison with Starcraft's build order with Summoner spells. Summoner spells are definitely shallower to think about, but at least they give some variance and odds to conquer in the field of justice.

If I disregard some shallow and rather unfair systems that LoL has (For example, summoner spells being obtained on different levels is absurd), LoL itself is a pretty fun game to play with friends. Although I will not get too deep into it. Had some terrible experiences with all kinds of douchebags in Ranked. Im too precious for this shit D

 

[Snackpack]

LoL has the most fair free to play model of any f2p game to date. No surprise that not only is it the most popular f2p game, it's the most popular game in the world right now by a large margin. 30+ million total accounts, 4.5 million unique logins a day. Dota 2 doesn't come close and never will.

Arguments in this thread against lol's cash shop come from having very little understanding of high or even mid level play. Most players specialize in less than 10 champions, which is enough to cover every role with multiple picks, enough to not ever be hard countered in ranked play. By the time you've played enough to actually be considering ranked play you have everything you need and then some. There is no competitive disadvantage caused by the cash shop, none whatsoever.

The skill cap is higher than people give credit for. I've played something like 8 thousand games since shortly after beta. I know how to win and carry games but I'm not competitive enough to perfect my mechanical skill and as an old fucker just can't compete with these 18 year old Korean dudes, they're just too fast. Whoever mentioned "theres no deny system" is again showing their lack of knowledge at high level play. If you can secure a slight advantage and understand minion mechanics you can totally force your opponent away from his creeps, denying him gold and experience. You know what though? that's not fun in the slightest. I can take a small advantage given in the first few minutes and if my lane opponent doesn't get help repeatedly he will become useless compared to me. A good coordinated team can and will counter that but it does happen.

I do agree that there are a few not very usefull summoner spells when it comes to the main game mode, but these spells are totally viable in the 3v3, dominion, and ARAM game modes. In summoner's rift flash + ignite is solid in a solo lane but it isn't the no brainer 100% choice. Also flash has the longest cooldown of any, it's only available 4 - 6 times in your average game.

There's my rant. It's a fun game, it's free, and it's free to play done right. The community is far bettter than dota or hon, and a million times better than what you see and hear from the xbox kids or in counterstrike. Still pretty terrible, but all competitive online games I've played are. Frothing racist homophobic vitriol gets you banned pretty quickly from what I've seen.

 

[SnapSlav]

You're either full of shit, or grossly behind on the times, Snackpack. LoL's numbers have been beaten (and handily, not even marginally) by DotA2 months ago. It sees 6.5million unique IPs sign into the game regularly, with a concurrent 700,000-2,000,000 at any one time- and bear in mind, up until a few short months ago the game was a closed beta, so it amassed all of these players despite not being open. DotA2 is an eSports industry in China. In The International 2013 tournament alone, the prize pool exceeded $2.6million, more than any other reward for any LoL tournament. Unlike LoL, which has stabilized for years, and is even beginning to start to decline, these trends relative to DotA2 are only growing. "Dota 2 doesn't come close and never will"? Don't be some ignorant fanboy.

I'd really like to try giving your arguments some credence, but they're absolute nonsense. For one thing, saying that players specializing in less than 10 Champions you then follow it up with claiming that the skill cap is higher than it's given credit for? I'm sorry, but those just contradict each other. With a pool almost as large as the game it was based on, players being particularly adept with a mere 10% of it is not a high skill cap. Worse still was your irrational insistence that any of us stating the game has no deny system were somehow wrong. Your argument is like any LoLer answering an oblivious DotA2 player's "Are there Runes in LoL?" queries with a response of "Yes", which is false. Meaning, Runes in LoL are NOT Runes from DotA2, so the answer is actually "No", but there was a fundamental misunderstanding between the two in the answering of the question. Your description of "denying" your opponents is not "denying" by DotA2 standards, although the same opportunity is present in DotA2 on top of the actual deny system, going by other names. More accurate names, such as "Harassment" and "Lane Presence". The pertinent point is that the opportunities are simply larger and more varied in DotA2 and HoN, and they're more limited in LoL, and it is simply folly to try to deny that (ironically). And of course there's the "most fair free to play model" comment, which... well I just can't even begin to fathom where I should start to tear that apart. Suffice it to say you're saying with such definitiveness a matter of preference, and those 2 are mutually exclusive things.

You show signs of being woefully ignorant about the other games you're criticizing, or how they relate to the game you're blindly defending, and you're just knee-jerk attacking them while defending another simply out of allegiance. That's just your mistake. The "LoL > DotA2 4lyfe!!!" hate was stale and pointless years ago, and blindly supporting one without understanding the other is just pure ignorance. I understand both games, otherwise I wouldn't say anything negative about LoL. I hear all kinds of things about Smite being shit, but I don't parrot those sentiments, because I don't actually know whether the game is any good or not, as I haven't played it. You're free to like LoL, since no one is going to take it away from you, and no one is telling you not to play it. But don't defend it from things it cannot be defended against. Don't excuse it for mistakes just because you like it, or you're being a bad fan.

 

[Snackpack]

Looking into it further it's hard to get exact data.

Right now theres 500k people playing dota 2 shown via steam stats. That's worldwide as far as I know, does steam have a seperate server for Asia? It's also saturday afternoon, I would assume that's peak time. Riot claims a 3 million average concurrent users, 500k being around the amount of one of their European servers. At any given time on twitch.tv the number of people watching LoL is at least double the amount of those watching Dota 2.

And you're right my experience with dota 2 is limited. So strike my comment about "denying" from my post. My experience with Lol isn't and it's as obvious to me as it is to you about my dota experience that you don't know what you're talking about.

I stand by the rest though. Their free to play model offers no competitive advantage whatsoever. The only thing you can't earn through playing are skins, and everything you need to be competitive you've already earned by the time you have enough game knowledge and skill to actually be competitive.

It's not "fanboyism" ugh can't believe I typed that. It's a solid game, and it's free to play done in a fair way. They deserve their success. I don't even really play anymore, but I'll still defend their model because I'd like to see more like it.

Edit: Also, no where was I attacking any game. Enjoy your gaming. You're right I had no idea about dota 2 becoming as popular as it is, that wasn't a value judgement of dota 2 though.

 

[The Vault Dweller]

I would like to point out that as someone who played LoL about a match a day for a whole year and was both very good and found it very enjoyable that I now play Dota2 and can't believe I ever liked LoL. It's better in every way significantly. In fact the only thing I about LoL that I wish Dota2 would do is have funny/out-of-character skins. It's lame that the Dota2 devs think skins should all be lore appropriate.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller

 

[SnapSlav]

In fact the only thing I about LoL that I wish Dota2 would do is have funny/out-of-character skins. It's lame that the Dota2 devs think skins should all be lore appropriate.

Gee, you don't say?[spoiler:15163510db]

Yes, that's a savage, anthropomorphic bear wearing suspenders and lederhosen.[/spoiler:15163510db]That set is many stories and lessens all wrapped into one neat package. It just goes to show that you're wrong about the devs being against "lore inappropriate" cosmetics. While Steam Workshop allows users to create cosmetics for the game, it was VALVE who designed and created that set, and the PLAYERS who demanded that set be taken down from the store, which Valve complied with as a result of the overwhelming outcry from the players. So, it would appear that players like yourself are actually in the minority in your desire to see some optional cosmetics that are wild and silly. =/

Still, there's plenty of "silly" courier cosmetics (Bleto and Stick are just.... well, hilarious) to choose from, so not like the game's ENTIRELY "serious" in design as a result of player vocalization. And, oh God, the announcer packs! I love listening to Stranger while I play, but I get a huge kick out of the PFlax announcer as well, and they recently released a GLaDOS announcer pack (which we all knew was coming) to taunt players, too. The game's plenty colorful. =)

does steam have a seperate server for Asia?

Yes, it causes a huge divide between what has subsequently been dubbed "Eastern DotA" versus "Western DotA" because of the servers. Also, with Korea quickly adopting DotA2, they have their own servers hosted independently from Valve's, too, so that's another couple hundred thousand that Steam's numbers can't quite account for.

Like I said, you're perfectly free to LIKE your game, because nobody's attacking that. But you need to be educated about what you're talking about if you're to talk at all. LoL has a SUCCESSFUL Free 2 Play model, but that doesn't make it "the most fair", and it certainly doesn't make it any good. I wish I could say that I haven't spent a cent on DotA2 to illustrate a point, but I have mistakenly spent $10 on the game before I knew what I was doing. However pointlessly wasted $10 notwithstanding, I've made a good $50-200 worth of stuff for DotA2, perfectly free. Not only could I get these "cash shop" purchases for free, but I can sell them to other players, if I choose (and have, which I've EARNED roughly $30 from the game's cosmetic economy), and this is supported by the game and platform it's on; this isn't some kind of black market trade (although there is that, too). The game sells "tickets" for tournaments that funds them, and pendants among other "tools" for players to buy that both give them freebies while paying for the professional players they're associated with. So Valve's F2P model is both competitive, cheap, entirely optional, and raises funds for third parties. Furthermore, ABSOLUTELY ZERO of the items that can be purchased impact the game in any way; they're entirely cosmetic or tertiary. So, the game's not subject to the same criticism as LoL of being "Pay 2 Win" (which is an entirely appropriate criticism). Is it perfect? I wouldn't say that, but from every angle I've attempted to analyze it, and compare it to other F2P models (and I've played a good deal, and observed yet more, over the years), it strikes me as easily one of the best in existence, if not "Top X" F2P markets. It certainly puts Riot's efforts to shame, that's for sure.

And there's nothing "hipster" about mentioning "fanboyism", because it's a very real thing. Just another excuse for people to blindly establish allegiances with things without any rational purpose, and to fight tooth and nail in defense of without any legitimate reason (as if they needed more). I don't see any reason to feel confounded that you "had to type that". Whether you feel that you are one or not, you came off as a player ready to take a stand against something he admittedly knew little about simply because it was perceived as at odds with something he likes. And that's putting it lightly. Behavior which is kinda core to the definition of fanboyism (and other terms, as well, but they apply more to other subjects, chiefly non-game-related ones, so no real need to include them). Suffice it to say, the only encouragement I needed to levy the fanboy criticism was a divisive and willfully self-blinding statement like "can't beat and never will", "you can't convince me", or the like, which you provided in your opening statement.

 

[Snackpack]

I still want the sources showing Dota 2 overtaking leagues population if you'd be so kind. As far as I can tell after looking into it after your post, it still doesn't come close. There was some tournament being streamed on twitch today, they almost got the viewer numbers of a LoL player streaming solo queue matches. That's a pretty good showing of it's popularity in the West I think, and seeing as how Korean teams dominate international play I doubt the numbers would skew differently for Asia. Dota 2 wasn't on my radar at all, it is cool that it has gotten as big as it is, more power to it. It's also interesting that all data shows the games aren't even competing, dota's increase hasn't caused a decrease to LoL as far as anyone can tell. "Doesn't come close and never will" was unnecessary to say and again was meant to be a testament to Lol being such a run away phenom, not a slight against Dota.

My absolutes about the cash shop should have been phrased differently. It is fair, it's the most fair I've used personally, and at release was the only game I knew of that had one that didn't disgust me. Dota 2's sounds pretty cool.

Continuing to assert however that league doesn't have a high skill cap, or that it is somehow Pay 2 Win simply shows your own bias and IGNORANCE - and warrants swift and unrelenting whatever.

 

[PlanHex]

Isn't pulling numbers from twitch irrelevant? Doesn't DotA 2 allow people to view stuff like tournaments directly from the client?
Plus, it doesn't actually indicate how many people play, even if the viewer numbers on twitch are consistently higher for LoL compared to DotA 2. Just conjecture and guesswork.

I'd like some hard statistics to back up player bases and such too, but I doubt it's readily available. Well, except the "in-game" numbers from Steams DotA 2 community page, but that doesn't say how many have the game installed or how many unique users use it on a daily basis.
Dunno where to get any numbers from LoL though.

 

[Snackpack]

You can spectate games through the LoL client as well. And yeh comparing to twitch.tv is just conjecture. It's popularity on twitch is at least 3:1 though on any given day, generally viewership popularity goes Lol>SC 2> Cod> Dota 2, when dota 2 has tournaments being streamed it moves up to the second spot.

All the stats I can find show LoL to still be in the lead for number of accounts, concurrent palyers etc so I was curious where he got the idea that Dota 2 crushed lol's numbers months ago because I can't verify that anywhere. Most of the numbers for either game come from cheerleading press releases from either company though.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail this thread into a competition. I didn't attack any game, just wanted to assert that LoL is fun, free, high skill cap, absolutely not pay to win.

 

[SnapSlav]

There was some tournament being streamed on twitch today, they almost got the viewer numbers of a LoL player streaming solo queue matches.

If history is any indication, tournaments are going to see a slight lull right now. The International just wrapped up recently, and that's the game's biggest tournament that congregates the best teams in the world all in one place. So the months leading up to it cause a massive stir among all the players and other tournaments pick up in activity as a result of teams trying to "prove themselves" so they can get an invitation to TI. Likewise, subsequent months following it dip in activity as a result. This year like last, many of the teams disassembled and swapped around their rosters largely in response to their performances in TI3, so with players just getting to know their new teammates and being unfamiliar with each other, that negatively impacts the tournament activity, as well. Anyway, those are all just trends I take note of, not that they're absolutes.

If you want a place to get the numbers, obviously Valve publishes theirs, but the Asian companies that host their own I'm not familiar with. I know Nexon is partnering with Valve to bring DotA2 to Korea, so you can check player activity from their information sources, but as far as the Chinese and SEA scenes, I only know that they're their own separate entity. Not brands or site names to gather numbers from.

The reason I hesitate to rely on definitive numbers in either case- be it from DotA2 or LoL -is that both games are subject to typical internet behaviors that exaggerate activity. Smurf accounts, spam accounts, and so on, so just like you both were saying that looking into Twitch viewers isn't quite accurate, there's a margin of error in looking at player activity, as well. I know that it was brought to my attention during the course of this year's The International that Valve and Twitch had a partnership where in-game benefits from watching matches through the in-game client would be shared to Twitch viewers as well, so the "incentive" to use one service over the other became blurred.

And Snackpack, it would be dandy if you'd stop changing my words, or trying to twist them. I felt like you were quite down-to-earth in your reply 3 posts above this, until you finished it by paraphrasing one of my sig's quotes in a mocking fashion. Then in the post directly above this you misquoted me stating that the numbers of DotA2 "crushed" LoL's, when all I said was that they were beaten. Surpassed. I indicated that partially as a result of the game going live on top of its overall appeal were possible causes for the numbers to continue swelling, while LoL's long-standing existence was grounds for their numbers to stabilize. Those are speculative comments regarding whether the trends will continue or change, not facts.