Progressing Fallout games as a series

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by DeadHill, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015
    It's a shitty walking simulator sold as RPG with unfinished gameplay and zero plot. Read forum's or Codex's review if you want the truth.
    IKR, shit happens? Maybe that sweet lvl 30 cap from vanilla F:NV wasn't such a bad idea? But if you maxed out all skills then they were useful for something? For a lot of things better to say. Anyway, you must pay Zenimax for 4 DLCs to do that and build your character and level him up specifically for that purpose, leaving everything behind. And if you max it all, then you're here for a treat. If you 200-300% every skill in 1-2, then you'd just waste your time.
    And you can avoid most of the fights and it's a good thing yet you still has to navigate through this world using your brain and eyes, not clicking on NPC sprite on a background scenery. And it's better than embarrasing Frank Horrigan from 2 anyway.
    Never said it was, the system just outgrew developers themselves. Anyway, if you want to see SPECIAL in action, go back and complete Fallout: Nevada.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  2. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    FTFY ;)
    Actually I've had more troubles navigating through the maps and searching for NPC's in olde Fallouts than in FNV.
  3. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015
    >not turning it off.
  4. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    I did sometimes, mostly it just got turned on by itself without any possibility to get rid of it.

    Oh well, to each his own. This new wave "Fallout" is dead for me anyway and chances are it never returns back to its roots, so I'm hunting in different waters for quite some time. With new and fresh indie devs appearing left and right hopefully a game covering the niche market I'm interested in will pop up soon.
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  5. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Well, I already made a disclaimer there that the system could be pretty much anything as long as it properly works as an RPG. PnP system is arguably the best one to convey RPG mechanics, but (like I mentioned some time ago in another thread) since there has been a kind of new school of thoughts on how cRPGs should stop emulating PnP system (and instead, make their own), that might change

    What's the example of the games that has "standard set of 1st/3rd person+free rotating isometric"?

    For you.

    Yet the impact that STR-Weapon Skill requirements has upon weapon usage were rather minimal, to the point of being so negligible that crouching eliminates the swaying almost completely. I'm not denying all the improvements New Vegas brought upon Fallout 3's broken system, since I also thought it was definitely a huge improvement to the RPG-FPS hybrid format. But, again, the execution were rather lacking, that the shooting mechanics does what it does instead of being truly affected by the RPG mechanics.

    Again, New Vegas leave a lot to be desired when it comes to moment-to-moment gameplay (like exploring the wasteland, combat, lockpicking, hacking, sneaking). Sure, SPECIAL felt much more meaningful and there's literally no useless skills, but where's their actual impact upon moment-to-moment gameplay?

    Also, those things you said about 1-2, have you considered that they were old games, that the devs were pretty young and inexperienced with the system they've created, and so their successors pretty much seen it all to use the system better than the way it was in the originals? My point all along was to remove all the bad things, add new good things and improve existing good things in Fallout 1&2, not just keeping it as is.

    Again, I've made disclaimer that any system could work, so long as they convey a properly working RPG mechanics. Taking the overall implementation, Fallout 1&2's system worked much better even though its results leave a lot to be desired. New Vegas was certainly a yuge improvement over Fallout 3's broken system AND much more favored its RPG mechanics instead of FPS's, but still nowhere near as good as how it was done by 1&2. And what does the protagonist background of each existing games has anything to do with what system is better and why? Are you saying that Fallout 1&2's system can't work if, for example, we place the Courier in there system instead of New Vegas's?

    Again, read on the post you quoted here. If I'm to erase the word 'PnP' from there, then devs like Iron Tower Studio and Stygian Software (and pretty much every other devs who's part of New Age cRPG Incline) would definitely not the devs you described above.

    Nowhere I'm saying you should listen to him or whatsoever. All I'm saying is that what we're arguing here is all a matter of taste. I can advocate for an improved TB-combat oriented Fallout games, and so can you for an improved FPS RT-combat oriented Fallout games. I'm only referring to my discussion with Kohno because he actually got good suggestion as to how to improve FPS RT-combat oriented Fallout games so that they can work better as an RPG instead of the atrocity that we got spawned by Gamebryo.

    Tradeoff is a better word in New Vegas's case, yes. But the future has been set in stone: it's all about sacrifice now. Let's get back to valcik's first post in this thread. All he's saying is that, basically, any other kind of 'Fallout' games would definitely gonna steer in the direction assigned by Bethesda, and it's gonna be fucking ugly. Hence why he wouldn't care unless, by some miracle or whatever, a Fallout game is made truly in the root of the originals in every way. Is it wrong to hope for that? Instead, you have to come and talk about the past; when all valcik talked about was the future.

    Nah, older games are better because it lets me to piece the puzzle all by myself (freely letting me to tie that rope so I can climb down a ruined elevator etc etc) instead of.... well, I actually can't remember if New Vegas gave me any kind of momentary gameplay like that. Not to mention the TB-combat, despite of its shortcoming, does it job to allow better roleplaying than its RT-combat counterpart.
  6. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015
    Sadly, I only had man(people) who made Nevada in mind (because you specified "imagine if Nevada something-something", not other developer. And during Nevada and Sonora production, so far nothing about PnP were stated.
    Not system's fault, only Black Isle's script writers and how it costed roleplaying them. You again about system. Nah, it's a loophole of a conversation. You see, Obsidian's writers made use of the same system and their experience to deliver a better *role-playing* game. What it is if not a better roleplaying game?
    What games? I only said regarding hypotetical Fallout game. There's no games mixing two control schemes unless being able to zoom into kinda-FP in World of Warcraft counts. And no games mixing FP and even RTwP with dicerolled to-hit chances.


    I guess we just like and want different things from Fallout, then. I don't need tabletop feel to play RPGs, sorry.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  7. SomeDudeandHisDog

    SomeDudeandHisDog First time out of the vault

    Nov 18, 2017
    I would like to see an enchanced version of Valkyria Chronicles' combat in Fallout, it would be a great mix of RT and Turn-Based.
    PnP system is not necessary to make an RPG, it was designed for PnP RPGs and not for video game RPGs.
    Dice rolls were used in PnP RPGs because a world's system and physics cant be simulated that easily, but in Video Games a world with its own systems and character webs could be created.
    What I'm saying is that RPG devs should focus on creating an RPG system made for Video Games instead of relying too much on the past or turning it into an action game.
  8. Risewild

    Risewild Carbon Dated and Proud
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    I will be honest and say I think they didn't do a very good job of making a "your build matters", specially in combat... I always make a melee and/or unnamed character and many times with just 15 guns skill, I can just pull a LMG and kill everything with it easily on Very Hard difficulty... You can't be "bad" in combat even if you never invest in a combat skill, you will still be able to kill stuff without a problem using weapons from skills you never invested into.

    Also Fallout New Vegas has a crutch that helps make builds not mater as much... Skill books and mostly skill magazines and if that wasn't enough, they give you the perk "Comprehension" which doubles the magazine skill bonus and add another skill point to books... So no matter your build, you read a magazine and gain 10 or 20 skill points in that particular skill... Since you start with an average of 15 on a skill (with 5 on all SPECIAL values) you read a magazine and get 25 to 35 points on that skill, you just got the skill to 1/4 or 1/3 of it's maximum value. That is a lot for a skill you never invested a point into or you never read a book to increase it.

    In contrast with classic games where you can start with negative values in a skill, in FNV the minimum skill value is 5 (with all the relevant SPECIAL values being 1), you can't go below 5. Then join in the skill books (There are 53 skill books in New Vegas) each giving 3 or 4 points for free (that's 159 or 212 free skill points)... Not to mention that in Fallout and Fallout 2 books can only increase the skill up to a max of 91 and the max limit on skills is 200 for FO and 300 for FO2. So you can only increase a skill less than 1/2 or 1/3 of it's max value using books in classic Fallout games, but in FNV you can increase the skill to 100 (max value) using books. Also classic Fallouts do not have books for all skills, but FNV does.

    So to wrap this up... In FNV your build doesn't matter as much because you can bypass most skill checks using books and magazines without investing much skill points on your character and you can kill most (or all) stuff using any mid to high tier weapon even with a shitty skill value on it. You can also bypass most SPECIAL values checks using drugs or equipment too...

    FNV does give a good illusion that your build matters, but ultimately offers many ways to easily hand-holding a player to not fail depending on their character build. It even shows the values you need to have to bypass SPECIAL and Skill checks in dialogue, so you know that you can succeed or not if you chug a magazine and equip that piece of equipment or take that drug.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
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  9. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Alright, how about this: although I haven't yet the chance to play Nevada, I'd assume it's like Fallout 1.5; as in, it's a TC mod for Fallout 2, and so it uses all the format used by Fallout 2 to approach S.P.E.C.I.A.L-based system. Going by this fact alone, ain't Nevada-Sonora developer literally uses Fallout 1&2's approach to that system, which is to emulate PnP approach for roleplaying computer games? Yes, they don't state anything about emulating PnP, but I think we can assume that just means they think their audience already understand that because they're using Fallout 2's engine (and all of the improvements brought to it by modding).

    Okay, I'll reiterate my point here: Interplay-Black Isle and Obsidian are using the same system, yes, but their approach to the system; the method of implementing/executing the system are different because of the format and engine they used. Going by the facts that Gamebryo engine severely held back New Vegas from being executed in a manner that would allow better role-playing (because of first-person RT combat and lockpicking-hacking minigames, among other things), I wouldn't say they delivered a 'better *role-playing* game'. Yes, they delivered a better structured game, quest-design and narrative-design wise, and went on to refine the system so that no stats are underused and no skills are useless, but in the end the approach they used (which is limited and restricted by Bethesda) failed to produce working RPG mechanics that can actually live up to the originals execution in terms of, again, moment-to-moment gameplay.

    I think I fail to understand you regarding this point. You said that you 'see Fallout as highly customizable game with control schemes for all kinds of perversions or prestigious taste', to which I reply that (barring prestigious taste) not all control schemes for all kinds of perversions would work to convey Fallout's greatest potential (see: Fallout 3, Fallout 4, and Fallout Shelter). And then you reply with, 'Standard set of 1st/3rd person+free rotate isometric covers it all for a real roleplaying game, f2p spin-offs need not apply'. Going by that, I guess you actually ignored Fallout 3 and 4 from my example. So now I'm going to ask again: what is the example of properly working RPG that uses 'standard set of 1st/3rd person+free rotate isometric' format? Is there any in history that can give us a hope that 1st/3rd person (and with an added free rotating isometric) format could achieve the level of execution we got from Fallout 1&2's approach or even truly surpass it?

    Well, there goes where you misunderstood me. Again, I've made a disclaimer that, while I think PnP approach is the best way to provide roleplaying experience, any kind of other system will work so long as they can produce a properly working RPG mechanics. I don't want to go around discussing, "What is an RPG?" because we've had that discussion way too many times, but you get what I mean with a properly working RPG mechanics, right? Basically, the gameplay relies mostly (or better yet, solely) on character's stats/skills/perks or whatever, instead of player's skills (like player's twitch reflex/dexterity). Another example that's rarely discussed, sometimes derived from comparing Top Down-Isometric Perspective vs. First/Third Person perspective, is what stats like Perception can do. Using Top Down-Isometric format, the player can see through character's ability to perceive, while First/Third Person format shows you everything as is. In this case, I'm not just talking about Fallout, since across the series (1-2-NV) I actually can't remember where and when Perception was used to notice things beyond the checks in dialogue, but other games (like AoD/DR and Underrail) allows you to use it multiple times to observe the surrounding environment. Is there any other RPGs in the format of 1st/3rd person that have an execution as sophisticated as that?
  10. Kohno

    Kohno Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jul 30, 2009

    Yes I am, what are you talking about.