Big Gun rebalance

laclongquan

laclongquan

Boned Hunter of Sister
*Suggestion*
1. Basic mod. Add in an Anti-Armor (Gauss) Rifle. Huge AP cost, like 7AP. Big Strength requirement, like 7. Use MF cells to power shots. In fact, it's basically plasma rifle with more AP and reskin, change to use BG instead of Energy.
Add in an Anti-Materiel Rifle. Huge AP cost, like 7AP. Big Strength requirement, like 7. Use MF cells to power shots. In fact, it's basically sniper rifle reskin, change to use BG instead of Energy.
AMR is available in Toxic Cave's ground level locker. MF cell availability will be the limit factor in early game (only early source is Smitty's random restock).
AAR is available in Gecko's Poseidon Plant, one among many lockers. plus one in SAD's courtyard level armory.
Another place is the Klamath's vertibird location. Good, logical, place for a free weapon.
2. Advance mod. Require messing with new critters in random encounters. Maybe more perk but I dont know. Robot armed with these weapons, but set to not drop upon death.

I experiment with Pyromaniac+Flamers and it's not bad.

*Problem*
In Fallout 2 Big Gun is not as viable investment as in, say, Fallout Tactics.

The earliest BG weapon, Flamers, you can get at Redding in Morton job. Problem is, it's level locked. If you are, say level 6, you wont be able to be Sheriff and arrest that bugger to spawn that encounter. same deal with buying from Elridge, because he's level locked behind Made Man status, and that one require much works, thus when you get it you are no longer early level anyway.

The other way for early level character is to travel to NCR via Redding-NCR caravan job and shop there. This is a bit meta, you understand~

A really scary way for early level is to farm specfic Random encounters.
++travel Redding-New Reno. Try to spawn a Claim Jumpers versus other groups, and wait until CJ get killed and we pick up the loot.
++Travel around Broken Hills. try to spawn Unity patrol versus other groups. After that, you can pick up the loot. Or you can murder one of those friendly troopers and run to the exit, which is quite scary, considering their tendency to throw Rocket around like free candy.
 
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laclongquan said:
1. Basic mod. Add in an Anti-Armor (Gauss) Rifle. Huge AP cost, like 7AP. Big Strength requirement, like 7. Use MF cells to power shots. In fact, it's basically plasma rifle with more AP and reskin, change to use BG instead of Energy.
Add in an Anti-Materiel Rifle. Huge AP cost, like 7AP. Big Strength requirement, like 7. Use MF cells to power shots. In fact, it's basically sniper rifle reskin, change to use BG instead of Energy.
Click to expand...

I agree that this type(s) of weapon should be added to the game, for balancing and general variety purposes.
However, making them use MF is kinda confusing, and I think it is generally not a good idea to "mix" weapon types (It can cause player frustration, "broken trust" issues :)). I suggest creating a new ammo type for the particular weapon(s).
BTW there are a few already made examples of this type of weapon in some mods (Nevada, Resurrection and others, so maybe check it out, it might be helpful for you.)
EDIT: U can make the AAR use 7.62mm, and give it a pretty high damage value, thus making it viable as an early game weapon. The AMR can use a new ammo type, which will be more rare, but it's ok, cuz it's middle-to-late game.

AMR is available in Toxic Cave's ground level locker. MF cell availability will be the limit factor in early game (only early source is Smitty's random restock).
AAR is available in Gecko's Poseidon Plant, one among many lockers. plus one in SAD's courtyard level armory.
Click to expand...

I think that this is a good start, but a more massive rebalance is warranted. For example, making m60 availiable in a few early shops (like "survival gear locker" in Gecko or something). So my point is, and you mentioned this point also, changing the availability of existing weapons is more important for what you are trying to achieve.
 
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I did think around M60 a bit. The tiny amount of 7.62 ammo in early game is a good factor. But Burst only is no good for that. And adding single shot mode is unrealistic. Same deal with SAWS and other machinegun really.

Logically, singleshot elephant rifles would need huge caliber ammo, like 12.7mm or best 20mm.

14mmAP is a good choice but the problem is there's no famous brand of machinegun using that. Just now I think of PTRS41 which is a good choice. Soviet antitank rifle~

Balancing will be a huge issue or we wouldnt pick up machinegun. Mind you, Small Gun sniper rifle is no good until we can get gauss version.
 
laclongquan said:
14mmAP is a good choice but the problem is there's no famous brand of machinegun using that. Just now I think of PTRS41 which is a good choice. Soviet antitank rifle~
Click to expand...
14mm can be a good choice, but these are "suppose" to be pistol/smg cartridge. But you can do this with reasonable logic.

Who cares about famous, existing RL weapons? Just make up your own, and make it lore-friendly. It's actually more realistic, than using a modern rifle, which shouldn't exist according to lore. I'm guessing that PTRS41 is a 1941 weapon (the older it gets, less likely to work/exist), a not so popular one, and is soviet, so it's very anti-lore.

EDIT:
Balancing will be a huge issue or we wouldnt pick up machinegun. Mind you, Small Gun sniper rifle is no good until we can get gauss version.
Click to expand...

If I understand what you are trying to say (and honestly, I think I don't) - I agree that u should have an "elephant gun", which uses Big Guns skill, and not small guns (why did u mention small guns weapons?) so a Big Guns character will have a choice of a single shot weapon. When I said "balancing" i mostly meant the amount of weapons found in the world and stuff, not only changing the stats of weapons, which is important as well, but not as much.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I think the M60 should remain as it is, just slightly more common. On top of that, u can add a new, made up, single-shot weapon (AAR), which uses 7.62mm, which has a higher damage than the M60 per bullet (but not per action point, becuase of M60 burst fire).
 
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A 14mm pistol cardridge would not be a good 14mm machine-gun cartridge.
 
Mr. Grandma said:
A 14mm pistol cardridge would not be a good 14mm machine-gun cartridge.
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I agree, though it is possible. For instance, the AR-9 is a carbine which uses 9mm pistol cartridges. In theory, it should still be as effective for close(r) range (effective range is at best, slightly higher than a pistol range, because of maybe added velocity due to barrel length, depending on weapon and cartridge).
But really, just using a different cartridge will probably be best.

EDIT: Personally, I think Resurrection pretty much nailed it. I would have done it slightly different, of course, but still.
1. They added a 14mm SMG, thus making 14mm ammo pretty much as useful as other pistol/SMG ammo such as .45, 10mm etc'.
2. They added a Browning rifle with single and burst options that fire 14mm, and is a small gun, so even more variety for 14mm. This weapon can be changed to a single-shot only big-gun, if it fits your need more(AMR?).
3. They added an anti-material rifle, which is a big gun, and uses 7.62mm. Again, you can switch around the ammo and burst options to fit your needs(AAR?).
 
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14mm was reworked to 12.7mm in FNV, and besides the 12.7mm pistol there is also the 12.7mm SMG.


I don't see a reason not to add more use for the 14mm ammo in the classic games.
 
Anti-armor use 7.62mm? Yeah that so does not turn my juice on.

For singleshot rifle used against mobile suits and tanks, larger caliber is a must. 14mm sounds about right.

Especially in early games 14mmap ammo is not very common. 1st chance for it, in fixed location, is Sheriff's locker in Redding, I think. So if we put a gun in Toxic Caves (or Smitty in The Den) it would have been quite limited in early game, which is a very nice consideration (balance)
 
"CATR" Chinese Antitank Rifle should do it~
Description
The Chinese Anti Tank Rifle was a power armor weapon that can be detached and used unassisted. It saw continuous action in the Alaskan campaign with several kill notches on its barrel and butt. The CATR comes pre-equipped with a 5 rounds magazine, a slightly shorter barrel than its model PTRS and a maintenance kit stored in the stock. A small Anchorage letter embossing can be felt on the butt.
 
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14mmAP magazine also need to be changed into 3 pounds, or 4. 14mm is bigger than .45 caliber which is 10 rounds per pound. A 30 round magazine of 14mm should be at least 3 pounds.
 
laclongquan said:
Anti-armor use 7.62mm? Yeah that so does not turn my juice on.
Click to expand...
Oh, I guess u mean anti-tank, as opposed to anti-body armor. Then switch AAR to AMR in my description.
Anyway, use the ideas and change them slightly. There's room for flexibility because u can make up your own story.

Edit:
laclongquan said:
"CATR" Chinese Antitank Rifle should do it~
Click to expand...

Chinese weapons do make much more sense. Sounds like a solution.

laclongquan said:
For singleshot rifle used against mobile suits and tanks, larger caliber is a must. 14mm sounds about right.
Click to expand...

EDIT:
I personally think that it's too weird to have a 14mm round which can be used both as SMG ammo AND as anti-tank ammo. It is possible, but it has many other implications that just doesn't make sense, like that the ammo, which were designed for SMG's, is much more powerful than an SMG could actually fire, thus basically wasting gunpowder and meterial making super duper ammo for a not as strong SMG. If it doesn't implicate that, then it implicates another thing, that a 14mm SMG can, at close range, penetrate tank armor. Either way, it just doesn't add up.

On the other hand, u can always add a deus ex machina style of description for the weapon like: "The scientists at Yuma found a way to realize the full potential of the 14mm cartridge" or something like that.
 
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There's no problem with the 14mm gun there because it's always been the HANDCANNON in Fallout for me.

And in this thread, when I said anti-armor and anti-suit, I mean as applied for the power armor and tank (and armored vehicles). The piddly personal body armor/vest (and thus all the leather/combat armors) are not worth consideration, what's with the AP ammo all around.
 
Note: for Onehanded Big Gun, the trait One hander would be quite overpowered~ Within the limitation of said gun.

Fallout Tactic Equiblirium mod, I think, has a few Onehanded Big Gun weapons, like flamer pistol, AAA pistol and they are bloody great in their times.
 
on the bright side, making the SMGs as Big guns in Et Tu means that Ian will stop bursting you in the back :P
 
The Custom option to limit him from bursting into VD's back is quite effective. For shooter it's 100%. For unarmed/melee it's still pretty high.
 
On basic mod.

A third weapon I consider is "Busted and Leaking Flamer"

Description
A busted up and leaking Flambe 450 flamethrower. Fires a short spray of extremely hot, flamable liquid. Requires specialized fuel to work properly. This one had been overused and under-maintained to the point of near unoperable and almost self-destruct, result in a tank of fuel enough only for one shot of reduced damage flame.

Ability:
- One shot and need to reload.
- Reduced damage a little compared to a proper Flamer
- Reduced item value (one third value of Flamer)
 
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If you want that to be some sort of "noob weapon", then it using "specialized fuel" sounds like a bad idea.
 
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