Brainfart or am I onto something?

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Zaij, May 21, 2008.

  1. Zaij

    Zaij Vault Senior Citizen
    Orderite

    Feb 10, 2004
    <Warning: Paradox's abound>

    On a certain night where my friends and I had something to help us have fun, I had what could either be an epiphany of gigantic proportions or just a regular brainfart, and I was wondering whether I could get the help of you fine people to sort out which.

    Chances are this doesn't really make sense and I'm just making a complete douche of myself, but here goes. Please don't be too harsh. It may seem a bit disjointed because of the state I was in when I came up with this, but I hope it'll all make sense by the end.

    The universe exists because it is possible for it to exist. In the stage before time and the universe and such forth, there was real nothingness (of a kind inconceivable to us because we can't help but put an observer in there - us). The fact that the universe exists proves that it was possible for the universe to exist.

    If it was possible for the univserse to exist in the stage before time and the universe, then the possibility of the universe existing was extremely low because there was nothing... real nothingness. At the same time, the possibility must be equal to one because the universe, in spite of the real nothingness, does exist and so it had to exist

    As this is the only universe we know to exist, we can discount the possibility of other universes (as in, one universe for every possible outcome of everything) existing due to the fact that the probability of our universe existing is equal to one, even though it's equal to next to nothing as well.

    There was more but unfortunately it's illegible :(
     
  2. fedaykin

    fedaykin Vault Fossil

    Jul 15, 2007
    Yeah, um...brainfart.
     
  3. The Vault Dweller

    The Vault Dweller always looking for water.

    Aug 24, 2004
    You probably discovered the meaning of life however due to the incredible size of the idea and the complicatedness of all the many interactions the concept was too large and detailed for you to remember. All you have left is a vague feeling that somehow for a moment you were aware of something only God knows...

    ...or you were smoking some weird substance. I'll let you decide.

    Sincerely,
    The Vault Dweller
     
  4. McRae

    McRae For sale: clown shoes, never worn Orderite

    Dec 9, 2007
    Yeah, and did you wake up with this in your inventory?

    =>



    I guess it would explain the trauma.
     
  5. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Erm, you might want to learn how chances work.

    The chance that the universe exists is exactly 1. However, this doesn't mean that when it first started the chance of it coming into existence was one. You're confusing the chance of it existing now with the chance of it coming into existence when it didn't yet.

    Also, that bit about this universe existing and hence no other universes existing is obviously untrue, since there's no reason why the chance of this universe existing being 1 has any effect on the chance of other universes existing.
     
  6. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
  7. Moving Target

    Moving Target Mildly Dipped

    500
    Oct 25, 2007
    This sounds an awful lot like the ontological argument. I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't quite see right for some reason.
     
  8. janjetina

    janjetina First time out of the vault

    71
    May 31, 2007
    As "before" and "after" are time related concepts, they make sense only from t=0 onward, especially given that time is a property of our universe, not an absolute. So "before time" is an oxymoron.
     
  9. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    This thread gives me the
     
  10. The Vault Dweller

    The Vault Dweller always looking for water.

    Aug 24, 2004
    I'm going to be using that smiley from now on...a lot.

    :D ,
    The Vault Dweller
     
  11. Paladin Solo

    Paladin Solo So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 7, 2003
    Agh, damn you Mikael!
     
  12. Yoshi525

    Yoshi525 Vault Senior Citizen
    Orderite

    Dec 10, 2006
    I can relate.

    However has people have said you are confusing tenses. Plus even if the chance for the universe to come into existance was 1 that doesn't affect the chances of other universes coming into existance, unless they are the same universe and share the same odds in which case there would be like no tangible difference anyway.

    So no, you clearly need to up your does of pot/acid/shrooms/hippo dung.

    Cheers.
     
  13. Ah-Teen

    Ah-Teen Vault Senior Citizen
    Orderite

    Jun 21, 2007
    Is there evidence that the universe came out of nothing?
     
  14. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Admin

    May 27, 2004
    well, yes & no.

    one could argue otherwise. :P
     
  15. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    were you drunk or high?

    so high, ok

    its impossible to determine what exactly exsisted before the stage the universe emerged into what we recognize now. all we can see is what is out there now and assume. and a true scientist/theologist admits the possiblity of anything untill it can be proven not true, and even then you can only prove something is not true in the given conditions the tests were performed in.

    if there was real nothingness before the stage of the universe as we know it, then you are stating it is possible to create energy and matter, as the energy and matter in the universe would have sprung out of nothingess without comming from anything. spontaenous creation of energy and matter without a source. you are throwing out so much science with this idea. while i normally encourage this kind of thinking as it gets you out of the box, you would then have to stipulate that you are theorizing that the conservation laws of mass and energy are wrong.

    you cant in one breath state you believe in the exsistance of this universe and discount the posibility of other universes. you would have to use a different term that doesnt allow for carpentmenatlization like universe does. the possiblity of the universe exsisting is 1, but you can stipulate the possibility of the universe comming into exsistence is less than 1.
     
  16. Zaij

    Zaij Vault Senior Citizen
    Orderite

    Feb 10, 2004
    Both sounds good! Or neither. The probability is either next to nothing or equal to one.

    This is unfortunately true. I was so sure at the time that I had uncovered the lost secrets of the universe.

    I was referring to the stage when things were Absolute Nothing. No dimensions, no matter, etc.

    I'll follow your advice, Dr Yoshi.

    Absolute nothing. Once again, no laws, no dimensions, no matter, no planets, no people to QUESTION MY PERFECTLY FINE FLAWLESS GODS DARN THEORIES.
     
  17. Ashmo

    Ashmo Half-way Through My Half-life
    Orderite

    Jul 2, 2004
    I think what you were coming from is this:

    If something has a chance of happening (i.e. chance >0), it WILL happen at some point between 0 and infinity (unless something else happens first and makes it impossible).

    i.e. if whatever caused the universe to exist had SOME very low chance of happening, it HAD to happen.

    The problem is the notion of a point zero at which no time or matter existed (at least not in any way that is meaninful to us) -- that's where things get freaky and the headache starts -- i.e. the origin of the universe.

    I prefer not to question the causes too much, though.
     
  18. Lukus

    Lukus Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Orderite

    May 11, 2003
    The Universe exists because Chuck Norris tells it to exist.
     
  19. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign No Original Thought Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Ditto on the Chuck Norris comment.

    I see no reason why there should not be multiple universes. Did you ever watch the Men in Black 2 or maybe it was 1...whatever? I know they weren't the best movies,but at the very end when the aliens are playing marbles with the galaxies.

    I think the universe or multiverse would be like that. But I'm not a fucking scientist so I will shut the fuck up.....
     
  20. Big T

    Big T Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jan 23, 2004
    "The intelligent being in these regions should therefore not be surprised if they observe that their locality in the universe satisfies the conditios that are necessary for their existence"

    Stephen Hawking, (physical) retard though he may be, hit it on the nose.

    Also:
    "Humanoids are the galaxy's way of trying to get rid of all that alcohol.'" Cheradenine Zakalwe/Iain M. Banks