Did you all forget..

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by DForge, Oct 31, 2008.

  1. Ausir

    Ausir Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Apr 20, 2003
    Actually, they do. FEV makes them practically immortal (but they can be killed, of course), but they also get senile with age.
  2. Black

    Black Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 21, 2007
    How interesting. How is it bigger and more complex? Because it takes more space on my hard-drive?
  3. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    Oct 29, 2008

    Read above statements on supermutants and BoS.

    Really ?!

    Fallout 1 = Wasteland for the 90s
    Fallout 2 = Wasteland for the 90s 1.5 meets Fountain of Dreams

    Interplay has described Fallout as the spiritual successor to Wasteland, and many of those Fallout 1/2 elements actually came from Wasteland, Fountain of Dreams and some go deeper to the game that inspired them.

    Master yes, the rest of characters for most part where recycled from it's spiritual predecessors, corny cliches, stereotypes and/or comic relief, not really alive for me, just planted there.

    Apart for maybe the Modoc characters and their bed/shotgun wedding scenario the game characters didn't really felt that much alive.

    Baldur's Gate II party members, like Minsc, had moments that felt truly alive for me.

    Wasteland in witch the NPCs might temporarily refuse to give up an item or perform an action if ordered to do so (not a bug), made F1/F2 (and F3) look like a step backward in making NPCs feel alive.

    This coupled with the party member lack of control and poor AI made Wasteland fanboys proclaim F1/F2 as a post-apocalyptic rpg for dummies, just as F1/F2 fanboys feel about F3.

    Fanboys, fanboys never change.

    Compared to F1 or F2, my pal Charon didn't shot me in the back and some NPCs actually take cover.
    Improved from Oblivion but without a script extender is will limited.

    How's that different from Fallout 3 ?!

    F1's story tough not-quite-original/without-its-recycled-parts was somewhat better, but Fallout 2's ?!
    Only the revelation spices it a bit.

    Look at Fable II, Vampires the Masquerade: Bloodline or Gothic 3 witch are modern comparable games; they make F3 look good.
    No game this big will be anywhere near bug free regardless of time and resources.

    I'm waiting for mods too to make it better too, but as far as I'm concerned it is a true sequel.
  4. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    Oct 29, 2008

    Yes, there's a lot more complexity as opposed to an isometric game from 10/11 years ago.
  5. SoylentNinja

    SoylentNinja First time out of the vault

    Oct 31, 2008
    Holy cow man did you even read the previous posts or did you just come in here just to stir shit up? Almost all of these things that you have mentioned have been discussed before and have been shown that they are not coherent with previous cannon or just didn't make sense.

    Also in 2 of 3 examples you gave us for modern comparable games, the developers had a budget that was somewhat limited compared to Beth.

    Also Trolls, trolls never change.
  6. Black

    Black Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 21, 2007
    Yes, I got that part. I didn't get the part where you show me this complexity.
  7. JOG

    JOG First time out of the vault

    Dec 17, 2007
    The point is that RPG was supposed to mean "Role - Playing - Game" 10 years ago - playing a role as in "to pretend" not "to play act" there aren't many kinds of characters that would wander the wastelands aimlessly (desert=hungry wild animals, heat, cold, lack of water and food) or are prescient/guided by a higher power and know exactly where to go.

    Most folk would talk to other people, learn about new places, and be careful when someone tells them that the south is dangerous.

    Bethesda redefined what RPG means, and thus we're having completely pointless discussions between today's RPG-fans and people that believed they played RPGs, 10, 20 or 30 years ago. So let's call Wizardry, Ultima, Wasteland, Dark Sun, Fallout, Baldur's Gate etc. ORGs (Old-fashioned Roleplayer's Game.)

    What we're saying is that Oblivion and Fallout 3 are bad ORGs just like they are bad RTSs, and only mediocre FPSs. You don't go to a Half Life board and tell people that Fallout 3 is the best FPS ever, right?

    Many of the folk here are old crocks that had their heyday in a time when ORGs were still wrongly called RPGs, and games like Elvira, Hexen, Heretic, Terminator (Bethsoft), Crusader etc. were called Action Adventures. And yes, Oblivion and most likely Fallout 3 are great Action Adventures for sure, but I don't really like this genre, if that makes me a bad person so be it. let me tell you a secret: I also don't like The Sims :shock:
  8. Edward Karlinski

    Edward Karlinski First time out of the vault

    Jul 9, 2007
    Did you forget that nobody finished the main plot in three hours, let alone nine minutes, unless he was someone trying to say he did this? People who actually played the game for enjoyment got hundreds of hours of play out of Fallout 2, especially if they tried to attain 99th level before finishing the Enclave.

    Did you forget that nobody could get Advanced Power Armor a minute after finishing the Temple of Trials without cheating. People playing a game for enjoyment do not do this. They do not make short fast travel hops and save then make some more to get the Advanced Power Armor. The random encounters in that area are guaranteed to kill any low level character that early in the game.

    Fallout and Fallout 2 had many flaws, but they were top down turn based PC role playing games and not First Person/Third Person real time, multi platform shooters with role playing elements. Fallout 3 may be a good game, but it is not, and never can be a real Fallout game. Try not to forget that.
  9. Edward Karlinski

    Edward Karlinski First time out of the vault

    Jul 9, 2007
    DOF_power wrote:

    I was there when Fallout and Fallout 2 were new, and there were NO Wasteland fanboys posting on any boards I read. So, please stop making things up to make false analogies.
  10. Gooscar

    Gooscar It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 28, 2008
    It's a matter of prespective.

    From what I've decerned for myself, Fallout 3 is not a representation of the entire East Coast, it's closer to a fully fleshed out single city you'd find in in past Fallout titles to include the city limits, in this case it's the DC Metro area. So to say Super Mutants infest the East Coast can't be backed up by a single example.

    I haven't gotten far enough into the game to see the explination of the Vault that's making the Super Mutants, but from what I've seen on the boards here and on the BethSoft site there's an arguement as to why would people turn themselves into super mutants if they're living in a Vault. The simplest answer I can come up with is another question: Why not? Could be a misinformed preparation for the radiated outside world that didn't go as planned, could have been a Vault dictated progam to do simply do so to see the results as per their social experiment, could be a number of things. I suspect a lot of it is secretly known by the folks at BethSoft, and purposely vague to allow players and fans to come up with their own explination, whether it's right or wrong.

    Same thing with the more Arthurian Brotherhood of Steel in the DC area, why are they acting in this way? Again, why not? The time between FO1 and FO3, and the distance between the DC BOS and the West Coast BOS allow for this artisitic interpretation and deviation from past Fallout titles. If they were right next door to the BOS that were more like the Illuminati with Power Suits and heavy weapons, yes I could see the issue. However BethSoft took the time to explain the radical shift in priorities in a publish rather than just rely on ingame NPCs to explain why. Looking over the Fallout Bible entries Chris Avellone wrote, I don't see anything in there that says "Absolutely no!" to the possibility of a detacted faction of the BOS taking up Arthurian ideals and putting them above their primary mission of collecting technology.

    There's only so much fact that can be extracted specifically from a video game's text without the support of developer/creator explination, because without an impartial explination, you only get a character's opinion which is moderately biased at best. You can say the DC BOS doesn't fit the THEME of the West Coast BOS, and that's fine. But saying the DC BOS violates prior BOS canon is a bad arguement because technically it doesn't from what I've read and experienced so far, it only deviates from the theme as a storytelling and characterization element.

    It's somewhat like Obi-wan's description of Anakin in Episode 4, where he says Anakin was a good pilot and good friend. While we honestly know he wasn't just that, if we had taken Obi-wan's singular description of Anakin as absolute canon of who was Anakin, then there would be a lot of what Anakin did in episodes 1-3 that didn't violate that character's description, to include further details given by ghost Kenobi in later movies, and therefore break canon. However, Obi-wan statement is a veiled opinion, not and actual unbiased fact about a person/place/thing.

    However the jury is still out on the Super Mutant stuff in my case.

    If there is documentation that states the BOS would never act like the DC BOS under the provided circumstances and examples, then please point me to it, because I haven't seen anything that states otherwise.
  11. chaosapiant

    chaosapiant It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 30, 2008
    I agree that the idea of F3 breaking canon is absolute nonsense. Nothing in F3 was ever explicitly stated to be the contrary in the other games. Some things have "changed" as things do in time, and certainly these things can be disagreed with. But it seems that some people are unsure of the word canon. Canon is what "really happened" from the unique perspective of the game's universe. F3 simply takes some artisitic license with some stuff in the game.

    If Bethsoft hadn't done so, and hadn't included things like supermutants, and the BOS, then people would then be complaining as to why Bethsoft didnt' include what some consider to be the "hallmarks" of the series.

    Fallout means something a little different to everyone, but I firmly believe in the ways that matter most, Bethsoft nailed it.
  12. Sorrow

    Sorrow So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Feb 9, 2006
    It's left for a character that learns about Navarro or for character that randomly explores the dangerous wasteland. Navarro pretty big and hard to miss when one travels along the coast.
    I remember finding Navarro at pretty high level and trying to find out what the hell it is. It was pretty cool.
    It was in times when I didn't end the game when I died though. I had to reload a few times before getting there.
  13. Rev. Layle

    Rev. Layle A Smooth-Skin

    Jul 26, 2005
    Actually (minor spoiler- AND if IIRC) - [spoiler:1abe82436f]there are outcast BOS in F3 somewhere that supposedly act a little closer the the west coast brethren, they explain that the DC-based BOS has went off the original path ideal-wise and behavior-wise.[/spoiler:1abe82436f]
  14. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    [spoiler:9aa1c823bd]Yep. Of course, the Outcast BoS does absolutely nothing otherwise, except that you can bring them some tech in exchange for supplies.[/spoiler:9aa1c823bd]
  15. Gooscar

    Gooscar It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 28, 2008
    Right, it's explained in the BOS Vault Diary on the main Fallout website. Some DC BOS soldiers felt that the Arthurian role was the right thing to do, and some felt that it was a violation of the core BOS mandate. Hence the divison.

    It serves as a reminder that the DC BOS is not the norm, it's a deviant faction.