Do you know when the Fallout world diverged from our own? The answer will surprise you!

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Risewild, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    I've mentioned this before. Like Risewild said, they most likely have access to historical archives, so it shouldn't really be that strange for them to at least be aware of what 'communism' is. In this day and age, we have communist sympathizers, and they appear here and there even though they obviously only know about the ideology through historical and textbook data. So is it strange for some vault dwellers who were born in an isolated environment for generations learn about this old-world value of communism, try to make sense of it and what it can do for the problem they're having in the vault, and emerged to be a communist sympathizer?

    Perhaps, but the chance of it alluding to emulation of Pre-War America is far greater in this context considering the whole setting is Post-Nuclear America. Again, the Vault 15 Dwellers who established Shady Sands are obviously Americans even though they are of different racial root with Aradesh and Tandi being part-India. And in the end they went with 'democracy', because where else do they learn of such ideology other than them being the descendant of USA citizens and learned it from their parents who also learned it from their parents before them?
    And this is further reinforced by Mr. House who, when asked by the Courier if he'd rule New Vegas as some kind of dictator, he corrected that he preferred to be called an 'autocrat', which would ensure his position to not impede progress, and if the Courier wants to see the fate of democracies, "look out the windows". While this might not makes sense because you'll most likely noticed the NCR out the windows sight, Mr. House actually referred to the state the world was left in by democracies, i.e old-world values of Pre-War America is what lead to the Great War in the first place.

    That sucks, IMO. Why play RPGs like they're adventure games when you can actually play the game of role-playing, like it's meant to be played? You basically make a fuzz about one of the prominent features of a radically different genre than your most preferred choice.

    That doesn't make any sense. Because if we go by your definition of what a post-apocalypse world is, then that means the concept of bartering, trades, rebuilding, etc etc should just go out of the window. So, the world is reset back to the Stone Age, but literally. What you're saying is that for some reason, even if there happens to be survivors from the Pre-War era, it should still means jackshit if they pass down their knowledge to their descendant, that those knowledge should just cease to exist, vaporized like it was never there just because the world was blown to kingdom come by a nuclear apocalypse. It might make for an interesting story, but this is Fallout: New Vegas, basically the real Fallout 3 that came after Fallout 2, and even at that point of the sequel to Fallout 1, the world has mostly been developed to the point that it was no longer a true post-apocalypse, but post-post-apocalypse. If the characters of Fallout shouldn't grasp any of the pre-War ideologies and definitions at all, then the NCR is your biggest beef yet because they straight up in-your-face "old-world values of democracy and the rule of law".

    Why? New Vegas isn't Fallout 3. The characters of NV aren't literal retards who would sit with their thumbs up their asses for 200 years not doing any sort of meaningful rebuilding and progression of civilization. Not to mention Joshua Graham is a New Canaanites and had an encounter with Caesar when he was still Edward Sallow of the Followers of the Apocalypse, along with another member of that group, so it's obvious Graham is a learned man.

    Again, you're making a fuzz of things that really aren't that much confusing. Is it really that strange for Christine, a former member of the Brotherhood of Steel, who had a firm root in their past identities as part of a nation once known as the United States of America, to be at least aware of what Little Yangtze really means? Again, it could've been that she noticed this tiny detail in a passing glance, either from a medical log or something like that, and gained the knowledge that the patients experimented upon in this internment camp are identified as 'Chinese-Americans' by the scientists of the Big MT.

    It's simple, really. It's been over 200 years after the Great War, the world is no longer in a state of true post-apocalypse, it's more like post-post-post-apocalypse, so not only the need to struggle with survival and rebuilding not as much as only a few years after the Great War, there's a lot more room to enjoy things such as education and stuff. Or in case of Fallout, more and more people came to enjoy them instead of only a select few. And because of that, I think it's really not that strange for current generation characters such as Christine Royce, Veronica, Joshua Graham, and most of all Caesar/Edward Sallow to have this great intellect to memorize historical details such as who Chinese-Americans are, deducing that Zion was a spot for child scout trips, etc etc. Oh, I just remembered why it's so silly of you to make a fuzz of Veronica and Christine knowing who Chinese and Chinese-Americans are, considering San Francisco is a big ass settlement just west of the NCR, so it shouldn't be impossible for the inhabitants to visit/migrate to NCR and vice-versa, and their existence being learned about by even an average wastelander. Hell, there are even Chinese characters to encounter in New Vegas, such as James Hsu. And yeah, I'm also dumb to not immediately remember San Francisco earlier, so now we literally wasted a page arguing about New Vegas characters's knowledge of the Chinese.

    Also, I find it even more strange that you're okay with Fallout 1, but completely make a fuzz about New Vegas. Both are role-playing games worth their salt, both are full of opportunities to elaborate further on your character's background and identity as you play the game of role-playing, so simply by that virtue even Fallout 1 should've violated your preference of "characters having actual personality and history of their own." In Fallout 1 you can decide whether or not you want to be a nice-guy who converse with people kindly, an average person who asked questions and replies in a neutral manner, or an asshole who decide to let his mouth run afoul and piss off every single NPCs he/she encountered. Maybe because there isn't that much example of Vault Dwellers showing off his big brains like the Courier can, but, again, this is the beauty of role-playing games. Dialogue options doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things UNTIL they're actually chosen and the characters actually say it. Making fuzz of it is like trying to judge people based on what they're actually thinking even though they haven't say it or act upon it.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  2. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    Yes, if you ask me, it is strange that being called a communist sympathizer should still be a motive of suspiscion or hate in the context we discussed. And it is strange that people keep giving the word any relevance when they never saw by themself any of those big bad ennemies who were calling themself communist, nor haven't heard of them elsewhere than in some archives.

    I wasn't aware that americans had a obvious genetic trait making them americans. If you mean ideologicaly speaking, then no, Shady Sands is no more american than anything else in a national or customary sense. Otherwise you might be surprised of how many real people are americans, without ever having set a foot there.

    It's not what I meant. I don't play a rpg like a adventure game, I only meant that IF a playable character has some established history and personality traits, in details that is, and that escape the player's control, I will play this character and not act like it is a blankstate. However I never said that I was seeing Fallout as being part of those games where most of the character's traits are imposed on you.
    It was a passing comment on me not having troubles with either styles as long as it blend in well in the rest of the game, not a definition of how I play everything.

    But to make a other passing comment, if I actually count how many rpg I really played, as in finished and replayed over the years, then it's only 9 games. Hell, 6, if you don't count the witcher as being real rpg. Guess it make me a bad commentator on what rpg really are anyway.

    It make sense to me that the world has been ideologicaly reset. I don't see how this is stopping the emergence of new civilizations, including some that will re-invent a lot of old concepts like the NCR.
    That is how the human nature goes, not just the american nature. And you are right, the past can have influenced this course of events through stories passed down and what's left of pre-war archives.
    It doesn't mean that these people would and should simply copy-paste whatever old classifications they hear or read about.

    Good catch on Fallout 2 San Fransisco, I admit that I dropped many playthrough of F2 not long before going there, this game often burned me out before the end. You know what, I really can't argue there, the Shi, given how they are presented in Fallout 2, could have been a good solid source of information about pre-war chineses for people like the BOS and NCR for instance, so...
    But if I am not mistaken (which I could be on this), the Shi don't consider themself chineses ideologicaly, nationaly or customary speaking, they are just the Shi. It doesn't stop them from having access to their pre-war origins and share some history of course.
    As for Hsu, for the record, it never occured to me that he was chinese, no more than american, he is just NCR.

    About the rest, and the whole discussion really, if it's what you think, so be it. Live and let live, no harm done. I wasn't trying to make a fuzz, like you say, but after all you asked if anyone in Vegas was having extensive old-world knowledge or such, and I delivered what seemed the most 'off' to me. Without nickpiting or I am sure you realize I could have ramble a lot more.
    But good news if you are tired of my fuzzing, I am ready to let go after all, and as I already said, none of this ruin the game for me. I enjoyed replaying the game obviously even if I wasn't planning on it before a while yet, so thanks for suggesting it.
    I will even let go of commenting about Ulysses and some final things in the last stage of the main quests before replaying them after all, the exorcism finally succeded.
  3. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Ah, but you forgot that they might have been told about it by their parents, and/or their parents before them. This happens all the time in real life, some Boogeyman syndrome or something. Or more precisely, prejudice. It's human nature to develop certain response towards something based on what they heard, or rather how the things they heard was delivered to them. And I doubt just because the world was blown to kingdom come, this nature will also just gone up in the smoke.
    Once again, the terminal entries in Vault 11 indicated that the shenanigan occurred for multiple generations, however:
    1. It was not made clear at which point in time the topic of communism came up, it could be during the earlier periods of post-War for all we know
    2. The way the vault works, there is NO way the dwellers could survive for perhaps more than 50 years. Every single individual would want to save their skin, and the worst case scenario an entire family might've committed suicide because they can't bear to imagine their loved ones suffer such fate in the future
    With this two point above, I'd assume all the knowledge, sympathy, and hatred of communism are still rather fresh in the minds of the dwellers, because the most important part you seem to just shrug aside is that the first generations of dwellers to enter the vault together with their children and grandchildren ARE USA citizens.

    I've already pointed out that despite of their racial root they are obviously Americans (because otherwise, how come do they gained access into the Vault or eligible for registration?), you still speak as if I'm implying there's obvious genetic trait making Americans Americans? And you misunderstood me, I didn't say *Shady Sands* are Americans, I said the Vault 15 Dwellers who first established the settlements are. Aradesh's generation might not have been considered Americans at all, but their parents and the parents before them certainly were Americans. Remember that the Vault 15 dwellers left the vault after 60+ years. It's not stated how old Aradesh is, but since Tandi is 16 I'd assume Aradesh is between 30-40 years old, which means he was born in the vault with either parents or grandparents who were clearly USA citizens when they first entered Vault 15.

    Yeah, but it's still strange for me to take this stance on New Vegas that the Courier for some reason shouldn't be knowing this or that, when it's up to you to decide whether or not the Courier DO knows this and that.

    And even then, there are plenty of explanation on how the Courier came to know certain knowledge of pre-War history. The Followers of the Apocalypse being a significant faction well into the 200th year of post-War is one such explanation.

    But why? If a scribe of the Brotherhood of Steel or a member of the Followers of the Apocalypse came upon a piece of information about certain ideology called 'communism', and that those who withhold said ideology are called 'communist', why shouldn't the scribe/the member use the word 'communism'/'communist'? It's for simplicity sake that they keep the names that has been decided since the first time they were established, and I doubt there is any particularly good reason not to use those word in discussion just because the rest of the world has been scorched to cinders, even if it has been 200 years.
    What, you think they don't have the brain capacity to memorize words such as 'communism', 'communist', 'Chinese', 'Chinese-Americans', and 'child scout'? If so, then what makes you think they have the brain capacity to replace old classifications with something else entirely different?

    How did you came up with the Shi not considering themselves as the Chinese 'ideologically'? Or even customary speaking. It's clear they maintained their heritage based on the fact that they keep the Chinese aesthetics for the Steel Palace
    and also Chinese naming convention with people such as Lo Pan, Ken Lee, Dr. Fung, Lao Chou, and Mai Da Chiang.
    They might not explicitly stated they were descended from the Chinese during the events of Fallout 2, but during the time frame from after the Enclave's destruction to before the events of New Vegas, what's stopping them referring to themselves as the Chinese? If, for some 'reason', they didn't refer to themselves as the Chinese at all, then a peasant in San Fran could've done so, because once again they clearly maintained their heritage through their naming convention.

    And even if both the Shi and San Fran peasants keep their mouth shut, we have the Followers of the Apocalypse ready to introduce to an average wastelander that the Shi and the San Fran peasants, based on their characteristic features, were descended from the Chinese. If Edward Sallow, from his membership of the Followers managed to gain access to the history of the Roman Empire, it's easy to assume the Followers keep easy access to other historical knowledge of the past, including those of the Chinese.

    As for Hsu, it's a Chinese surname his feature in-game doesn't make it clear that he's a Chinese, but his description in the card artwork sure does
    I'm an Asian, so I could at least vaguely tell the difference between a Chinese, a Japanese, and a Korean. And Hsu's appearance here definitely matches that of a (stereo)typical Chinese.

    It's fine. It's rather interesting to me that while most people have a problem with Elvis cult and Roman Empire's LARPers, you're the only one so far to take issue with rather trivial stuff mostly there in the background, and things that don't actually matter in the grand scheme of things until they actually happen like choosing a dialogue option.
    Although, if I have to admit, I do have a problem with you thinking that a nuclear apocalypse should act as a literal reset button that for some reason should just wipe out everything about the world before the nuke falls from people's mind. It might make some interesting story for another time, but the way Fallout was established such thing is nigh impossible because long term isolation in a tightly closed environment such as the vaults would mean knowledge of history, probably with all the prejudice and perception based on those knowledge, will persist for a long, long time. Especially with the elements such as the Brotherhood of Steel with their scribes, and the Followers of the Apocalypse who literally all about recovering and maintaining knowledge, aside from helping those in need.
  4. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    About the vaults in general, I don't say that your reasoning is false and could not happen, but I am still seeing a big difference in the design of Fallout 1 and Vegas on this particular topic.
    Sorry for repeating myself but it seem we both misread the other on some points so far.

    To be honest I never thought of making close calculations on how long the Shady Sands people founded their town and if their parents or grandparents still were in the right age to remember they were US citizens, or feel very close to it while reading whatever history they might have had in their vault.
    All I know is that nobody in their group, or a other group who came from vault 15 too like the khans, demonstrated a close attachment or close mindeness to whatever they may know of pre-war ideas.
    Except for the ending slide Fallout 2 made canon for Shady Sands of course, where they start the NCR, a new 'democracy'. I still say that in my mind, it's a re-invention of democracy concepts, possibly influenced by the past but still new in the sense that NCR wasn't intended to become a 'close emulation of pre-war america', not in such specifics.

    We can't be exactly sure on vault 11 longevity, except it still lasted generations from Gus Olson speech, it could be you are right about the 50 years laps but I would dare betting that the last 'election' and subsequent events could also have happened much later, for example while vault 13 is having it's water issue.
    This time laps is just a example but look at how the vault 11 residents were behaving from what we learn during the courier's visit. Each was dedicaced to saving their own skin, like you said, but in a very collective way. They had these blocks proposing each a candidate for the next election, and each candidate was obviously someone the rest of them hated/liked even less than their other neigbours.

    In other words, their system was made to last as a collective despite the catastrophic nature of the situation, hence why I don't see it impossible for them to have played this rotten game a century, for example. And it's very on par with human nature, survival at all cost as long that a majority feel safe enough, which is also compatible with the way they chose their candidates.
    It's only when Katherine Stone managed to get elected, and made the choice completely random that the rest panicked and started to riot.

    Oh boy, why did I write so much again on this just to make a point about the 'communists' from vault 11... I really like vault 11 you know, aside from the communist bit, I think it's one of the few 'environmental story telling' that actually work in a great way. This and the sierra madre.

    Let's now conclude on the fact that Vault 13 residents and vault 15 descendants never demonstrate a bit of pre-war prejudices at any point during Fallout 1, nor vault 8 descendants during Fallout 2, which, euh, was the point I aimed to repeat in a new light with this new wall of text...

    I will be briefer on the rest. I am not comfortable with the Shi, never stopped much on them even during a complete playthrough. All I remember is they or their ZAX emperor admitting they are descendants from the chinese submarine crew, but I am not even sure they say it like that.
    All I know, I think, is that they don't resent non-Shi people in a pre-war way, no more than the rest of the wasteland care about them being of chinese ascend?

    BOS and Followers, yes they have some pre-war archives, however who is saying they have so much of them? It's not about brain capacity, it's about context. You rationalise the Fallout context as if enough pre-war history is still available for educated people to make sense of it. It's fine if you want to see it this way. I see it a other way and think it make better writting opportunities if most archives are in a uncompleted/corrupted states. Like we can find a lot of pre-war messages on computers and holotapes, but would we, players, could really make sense of them, in the historical sense, if Fallout pre-bombs world wasn't similar to the real one?
    I would even argue that for the sake of writting opportunities, even the first vault dwellers should have had only access to uncompleted archives, and therefore why their descendants like those we see in Vault 13 didn't retain too much specific ideas of the old world. It can be for a myriad of valid reasons in-universe.

    Since you mentionned Caesar and the legion, I happen to not have a problem with their 'roman' trip.
    Surprise? It's because Edward Sallow has a very single minded knowledge of the subject, I would hardly call him educated about it.
    He may have read bits of Caesar's history, and the transition from the republic to the empire but come on, aside from latin's bits and dress up, I don't reconise anything 'roman' in the legion. It could be that Edward just took whatever he found most suitable to his propaganda, it would suit his character, but I don't think so.
    My take is that he had access to uncompleted archives, or he would know that his 'empire' won't last a quarter of what the real roman empire lasted. And that the said roman empire were just as plagued by corruption and such as the republic, among other things.

    Anyway, regardless of what the legion's future really is, the way they are shown make them acceptable as a Fallout faction in my book.
  5. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    How is this supposed to even be a question? What makes it possible for Aradesh generations' parents and grandparents to, for some reason, not remember they were US citizens, or even there to be a 'right age' for it? They left Vault 15 60+ years after the Great War, 20 years later Aradesh is somewhere between 30-40 years old considering Tandi was 16 at the time, OF COURSE Aradesh's parents, or at least grandparents still remembered they were US citizens when they first entered the vault! Or at least they're mostly teenagers and wee lads and lass at the time, which means they most likely recognized the fact or even remembered that they were born and raised in the US. And whatever history they read during this time period will be pretty damn fresh and straight from the textbooks published not long before the Great War.

    You say all that, as if anybody in New Vegas has a close attachment/close mindedness and prejudices to Pre-War knowledge. Aside from a learned and educated individual like Caesar, a man who lived the time like Mr. House, and insane people like No-Bark, I just don't see it. Definitely not from an average wastelander, who mostly mention Pre-War names such as 'Kaizar' and 'Roman' once, and definitely not from Veronica and Christine who mentioned 'Chinese' and 'Chinese-Americans' once.

    So characters of Fallout shouldn't have the brain capacity to put 2 and 2 together and grasp the things they see, experience or hear about, or at least it shouldn't be easy for them, but they're perfectly capable of re-inventing a new concept of democracy, a Pre-War ideology that lived long enough to see nations rise and fall across history? Even though the characters who did the former lived in a period of time 200+ years after the Great War, while the characters who did the latter lived in a period of 80 years later?
    I'm only vaguely remembering the origin of democracy from what I learned during middle school and high school, but isn't democracy, as a concept, was a result of philosophical endeavors committed by the Greeks, and they were backed by a sustainable and successful society at the time, which makes it possible for them to begin their contemplation in the first place? And even though I couldn't remember exactly when, it wasn't until just few centuries ago that the democracy as we know it today finally took form and become an idea to be accepted worldwide. And you're trying to tell me that some descendant of the vault dwellers who abandoned their vault are able to come up with a new concept of democracy, while trying to live in a time that's harsh like never before, all the while with zero knowledge of history?

    And if you still can't accept that NCR's implementation of the old world value of democracy and rule of law is as close as it gets to emulation of Pre-War America, please remember that the game has been trying to express, again and again, that NCR's concept of democracy brought with it all the bad things that lead to the Great War in the first place! If that's not the implication that the NCR's concept of democracy is some form of emulation of Pre-War America, then I don't know what is.

    Perhaps, but that would mean the knowledge of history and certain behavior towards it still persisted in the minds of the vault dwellers. Again, remember that the vault is an isolated environment, so it's difficult for all the knowledge and mindset of the first generation of the dwellers who first entered the vault as US citizens to be gone just like that.

    But the communist bit is just that one poster that appears in the vault. Maybe there are multiple copies of the poster, but it's still just one poster, basically one mention of the word 'communist', and that's it. I read up on all the terminal entries in Vault 11 accessible by the Courier and not a single word of 'communist'/'communism' can be found in there, except for the part where Donna Haley referred to it as the rumors circulating about her and she still didn't mention it by name. So I'm not sure how you came to interpret that as there being a 'communist hate drill' or that the Vault 11 Dwellers 'demonstrated close attachment or close mindedness to whatever they know of pre-war ideas'.

    Again, I've already said they don't say much nor go deep into the topic during Fallout 2, but what's stopping them from doing so during the time frame between the end of Fallout 2 to the start of New Vegas?
    Oh yeah, considering the Brotherhood have an outpost in San Fran, it's the surefire way for the Brotherhood to take a glance at the local and confirmed, "Oh, so this is how a Chinese looks like."

    You just completely brushed aside the background of the BoS and the Followers. The BoS dated all the way back to moments before the Great War. Aside from having obvious and stronger connection to Pre-War history as they were once part of the US military, they decided to occupy Lost Hills, a Pre-War government bunker, of which I'm pretty sure is filled to the brim with archives of knowledge, including that of history. And if you think that's not possible, remember that the Enclave, which is factually the descendant of some members of the US government, still knows and remembers the good 'ol America, 160 years after the Great War, and so I'm sure they got access to complete archives of knowledge and history. And considering Lost Hills is a bunker, and they got scribes, I'm sure most of the archives are maintained properly as to not losing it to data corruption or technical failures.
    Meanwhile, the Followers obviously would mostly came upon incomplete pieces of knowledge, but considering they've been doing it for more than 100 years, not to mention they produced learned and educated individuals such as Caesar, I'd assume it's more likely they actually managed to gather all the pieces and put them back in one place by sheer persistence. Not to mention they've gone to cooperate with the NCR that one time, and because the NCR greatly expanded its territory, it makes sense for the Followers to follow the trails all the way all over the place, finds many more pieces of information and bring them back to their library in the Boneyard. I mean, they'll do everything to get them. Remember Emily Ortal?

    Again, you can decide whether or not your Courier could do that. But the characters we're discussing have certain backgrounds, like Vault 11 dwellers being vault dwellers, Veronica and (formerly) Christine being part of the Brotherhood of Steel, the Shi who, while not really explicitly say it when we have a chance to interact with them in Fallout 2, still obviously maintained their heritage through their choice of aesthetics and naming convention, and finally we have the Followers of the Apocalypse who studied literally everything that there is that can be studied extensively, for more than 100 years no less.

    Except the vault project began construction 20 years prior to the Great War, so it makes sense they prepared everything beforehand to accommodate living in the vault, including but not limited to education. Either through data corruption and/or technical failures, then it makes sense for their archives to be rendered incomplete, but we don't know if that actually happens and there's still a chance as high that they maintained them properly to accommodate education for younger generation.
    And once again, the Vault 13 dwellers got enough problem on their hands to worry about discussing capitalism and democracy, which explains why we saw little to none of those in Fallout 1. So, yeah, I think I agree with you that F1 and NV had different approaches to the topic, BUT! I still stand by my point that the period of New Vegas saw less struggle for survival thanks to civilization being more or less established further and farther, which gave way to more educational opportunities, including for the masses of average wastelander.

    You just played the game, and you call Edward Sallow 'hardly educated' about the Roman Empire? Even after he mentioned that they were "a highly militarized autocracy that effectively integrated the foreign cultures it conquered" aka multicultural, which it is, and also a slave-society of which both the Roman Empire and the Legion is? Maybe you don't recognize the Roman in Caesar's Legion because the Roman you know is the Republic of Rome, while the Rome emulated by Caesar is the Roman Empire? I mean, yeah his access seemed rather limited but only because that's all that we got from him, or rather that's all he wants to say about it, and anymore than that it trivial or irrelevant to how he's going to apply it to a post-apocalyptic era.
    Also, I wouldn't say Caesar's 'empire' won't last a quarter of what the real Roman Empire lasted because he had access to incomplete archives. His 'empire' won't last long anyway because the Legion followed his persona, not his visions and ideas. Caesar's mistake was putting up a farce, and gone too long with it. That is, until the Courier came into the picture and so there is a possibility for the Courier to find a successor worthy to continue Caesar's legacy or perhaps become one by him/herself. Or even heal Caesar's brain tumor and gave Caesar time to groom a heir of his own.

    Anyway, I just read up on Caesar's dialogue text's_dialogue and he more or less confirmed what I said about the Followers. He referred to their headquarter as the Library, with a big 'L', and that he learned from them that there's a lot of good information in the old books. You know what Caesar learned during his time with the Followers, aside from history of the Roman Empire and Hegelian Dialectics? Warfare. Divide et Impera. But wait, there's more! You know what he called himself when he was still Edward Sallow of the Followers? An anthropologist and a linguist. And he was supposed to 'learn the dialects of the Grand Canyon tribes'. Gee, I wonder how he came upon the terms 'anthropologist' and 'linguist', and correctly identify it as a profession dealing with humans and human behavior (Grand Canyon tribes) and a profession dealing with language (dialects), even though those were supposed to be Pre-War concepts, ideas, and definition, and a human living in Post-War era should definitely not understand all that, no matter how educated they are.

    Last but not least, have you tried Age of Decadence and Underrail?
  6. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    I really have let go of this and reconized that what we discussed is of minor effects, if effect at all on the overall game. If you want to keep discussing it, no problem but don't feel obligated.

    It's not how I meant it. Of course the vault's first generation would remember where they were born and how life was before. I meant that their descendants shown in F1, within or without a vault, have moved on. Whatever their lifes and problems are, they don't spend their time at dreaming about going back, or rebuild like it was before.

    Again, this is all a matter of context, not brain capacity. Whether we assume that some people still have access to a rather complete knowledge of pre-war history, or a rather uncomplete one, I agree with you they can draw inspiration from it to form new civilisations.
    If I still want to debate something, it's that factions shouldn't be obviously written as the emulation of anything, nor obviously copy-pasting too specific pre-war concepts such as communism, america or chineses. My minor beef isn't so much about if it make sense in-universe, it's about the writting design, the feel of the game.
    Let me repeat here, that I admitted Vegas still did alright despite the minor things we discussed.

    But this poster being used in this particular context indicate that vault 11 dwellers as a collective still have a strong prejudice/fear against whatever they believe to be communists. But alright, in the context you see it, where these vault dwellers still go to school to learn they are the good guys americans and the big bad communists must have dropped the bombs first, it can make sense.
    Sort of. I still maintain that even such isolated communities don't have to stay that much stuck in the past, especially when they too have a big problem of their own, the annual sacrifice and all.

    I didn't brush aside any background. Again, factions can have a background with connections to history without trying to emulate it. And both the Bos and Followers are great written factions because of it, among other things.
    Are the BOS a emulation of US military? Not that I ever noticed. Are the Followers using their knowledge to spread useless pre-war propaganga or do they want to rebuild 'america'? I don't think so.

    I knew as much as Edward say in his dialogs, and a little more than that, about antique romans, theoritical warfare and relatively commonly known latin expressions, and I don't consider myself educated on any of those subject. That's not the point, though I admit knowing absolutely nothing about Hegelian dialectics, and I can't say I am interested about it.

    The point is how Edward use what he know, telling me he either doesn't know that much or is self delusional, and if he knew more he would know that he is leading his legion in a dead end. Saving the little man never occured to me, but I bet that even then he will keep at it.

    Nope, but I see them on GOG. Any of them you would recommend over the other? May give it a try when I have time for a new game.
  7. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    At least Aradesh generation's grandparents might've been teens when they first entered the vault, so it's highly likely they DO remember they were US citizens. Then they tell their children (Aradesh parents) about it, and in turn they tell their children (Aradesh) about it.
    And once again, you're implying that anybody in New Vegas somehow *actually* spend their time dreaming about going back to Pre-War, when there's literally none of them. And rebuilding like it was before is perfectly possible in the Mojave landscape, considering Mr. House managed to single-handedly prevented almost all of the warheads from even touching the ground (Oh yeah, in fact, thanks to Mr. House, people aren't even spending their time dreaming about living the life during Pre-War era, because they pretty much are living the fabulous life of Las Vegas in the Strip, so I guess that'll trigger you the most). Hence why places like Goodsprings, Novac, and especially New Vegas are pretty much intact and almost resembled its Pre-War form. And if this is actually a problem for you, well....

    Then you actually got beef with the whole IP. The setting was created exactly so that all these would naturally happen. Once again, with elements like vaults, the Brotherhood of Steel, and the Followers which all act as a form of preserving knowledge, it's only natural when they set a story forward in time that there are civilization based on (or their own interpretation of) those knowledge.

    But yeah, I also have a beef with how the IP was used. Setting the story forward in time was partly a mistake, IMO. It will be much more interesting to see how different parts of the Post-Nuclear America fares during the exact same period as when the Vault Dweller first began his quest for the Water Chip. This is why I really love Fallout 1.5: Resurrection and Fallout of Nevada. Because even though both of them are just TC mods, the former takes place straight after the events of Fallout 1 but further east to New Mexico, while Nevada happened in the Nevada region, including New Reno, Vault City, Las Vegas, and Salt Lake City, but in the period of time some 20-30 something years after the Great War.

    Ah, but how do we know the Vault 11 dwellers actually act as a collective in this regards? Couldn't it be just one subgroup of a group of supporters for other candidates? In fact, for all we know it might be that one guy who developed the Boogeyman syndrome for this thing called communism, while the rest who supported Donna Haley and put up the poster saying those rumors are baseless are, in fact, none the wiser of what communism is.

    But this wasn't my argument regarding the BoS and the Followers in the first place. I never said anything about the BoS emulating any kind of Pre-War ideas because they got access to archives of historical knowledge. I said that since the BoS got access to archives of historical knowledge, it isn't strange that they're able to express their knowledge of the Chinese/Chinese-Americans, especially since they got an outpost in San Francisco, took one look at the locals while performing intel and goes, "Oh, so that's how a Chinese looks like."
    The same with the Followers, because my argument regarding them is that it's nigh impossible for knowledge of Pre-War history, ideas, ideology and definition to just cease to exist thanks to the Followers zealotry in preserving knowledge through gathering books and bringing them back to their Library. And while the Followers themselves aren't the one who use Pre-War ideas for rebuilding, they do produced one such individual, in fact: Caesar.

    Eh, this is just you turning a blind eye to the possibility of Caesar actually being an educated individual who get everything and understand them properly from those old books he read in the Followers Library. Come on, man, this is New Vegas, not Fallout 3. They aren't literal retards who sit with their thumbs up their asses for 200 years straight. And if you still insist on him getting incomplete pieces of knowledge, again, the Followers been doing what they did for over 100 years, so it's not impossible for them to actually complete their collection through sheer persistence.

    And once again, Caesar aren't leading his Legion to a dead end because he got incomplete knowledge of the Roman Empire. He's leading them to a dead end simply because his Legion followed his persona, not his visions and ideals, while at the same not having a heir actually worthy to continue his legacy.

    Try both. I'm only recommending them because they have their own twist on the concept of post-apocalypse. Age of Decadence will be the most recommended one since the way it handles its Pre-War world is more or less the way you like it. Underrail might triggers you because it's essentially chokeful of characters who are learned and educated individuals practicing Pre-War concepts such as electrochemistry. But Underrail handled it way better than Fallout in this regard. It's because 'Underrail' is basically a gargantuan network of underground facilities like train stations, tracks, caves, and the likes, of which might as well span an entire underground of a whole continent. Luckily, the game gave literally zero ideas of what's surface life is like, so there're literally zero discussion of Pre-War ideology.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  8. VaultTecCivilDefense

    VaultTecCivilDefense First time out of the vault

    Mar 24, 2019
    More than likely, Fallout's divergence was the 1960's, as though Bethesda has an unhealthy obsession with the 1950's, since Stop Signs did not become red until at least 1954, it's safe to assume that the minimum point of divergence isn't until at least '54, but more likely not until the 60's.
  9. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    It was the Cretaceous Period like I said before.

    If a T-Rex skeleton in the game has a real life counterpart and they are different (as in, the game one has 3 fingers while the real world one only has 2), it means that the Fallout world had already changed since the Cretaceous Period.
    This can't be a coincidence, it's well known that T-Rex only had 2 fingers.
  10. Octavian

    Octavian It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jun 16, 2018
    LMAO this fucking thread
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  11. Fema


    Oct 22, 2018
    A hell of a mess caused by one finger
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  12. Squadcar

    Squadcar Still closed. Still closed.

    Jun 1, 2018
    You'd be surprised the kind of mess a sole finger can cause.
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1