Does a GECK really purify water?

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by No Man, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. No Man

    No Man Gore Bag > Meat Bag

    201
    Feb 20, 2014
    Because if it does it has some interesting consequences:

    1. Vault 13 has one (information from FO2).
    2. It can clean water (information from FO3).

    This makes sending the Vault Dweller for a water chip and in turn starting FO1 at all pointless. Therefore he does not leave, is never banished, Chosen One is never sent out to save Arroyo (might not even be born) and does not blow up the Enclave. They, in turn are not defeated and not forced to move east, so the events of FO3 never take place.

    Or in simpler terms:
    If Fallout 3 is canon then Fallout 3 is not canon.

    Could you please point out the holes in this theory and the wrong assumptions that I have made and make it stop bothering me? Thank you.
     
  2. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    I believe the GECK in Fallout 2 is not supposed to be taken seriously in the first place. It represent the all-powerfull mac guffin with a funny name that will make the world a better place. Fo1 used an actual MacGuffin that made sense as the tone was more serious. In Fo2, the dev make fun about the mac guffin, the chosen one, and the (almost) one dimentionnal villain, enough that we notice it and laugh about it. We know that settlers who use the GECK to make their city will succeed but its way to work and its effects shouldn't never be too specific, as they aren't supposed to be believable.

    Beside that, if the Geck was the purifying factor, the main macguffin (forgot its name) of Fallout 3 wouldn't have any purpose, and James/Catherine/Madison would have done nothing in decades. Except that were clearly have some holodisc in the Jefferson Memorial, by the time Catherine was still alive that told that the MacGuffin was already working then. Except that the effect was not enough significant. Not enough water purified, to sustain more than a few person. Clearly not enough to sustain Rivet City or the Whole Capital Wasteland. The Geck simply increased that macguffin efficiency so it could sustain all the Capital Wasteland, and reduce the overall radiation of the area.

    Also, it seems that the Watership itself isn't related to any radiation counter-measures. In Fallout 1, you can buy regular wasteland water in the Hub and give it the Vault 13 citizens. In Fallout 2, the citizens of Vault City are suffering from radiation poisonning trought the water they drink, while they have 420 water chips in their still working vault.

    Seems that vault use other devices to purify their water. Maybe they use the same kind of device than the robot in Megaton, but they have more of it.
     
  3. Lexx

    Lexx Background Radiant
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    The GECK in Fo1/2 was a small survival box with some chemicals, crops and digital manuals. Fo3 didn't got this concept and transformed the GECK into some form of wondermachine with magic abilities, which was really stupid.
     
  4. No Man

    No Man Gore Bag > Meat Bag

    201
    Feb 20, 2014
    Not the chip itself obviously. I mean, you won't just attach a tap to it and expect clean water to come out. It is a chip. It needs a machine to work. I don't recall if Vault 8 had any more of those. Whad they did have is a bunch of ghouls with a nuclear power plant poisoning their water as neighbours.
    Not exactly hard to believe, is it? Besides given any of the GECK's other functions "increasing efficiency of a water purifier" would be barely noticable and could only compete with a pen flashlight.
     
  5. Gaspard

    Gaspard Kasparov

    833
    May 7, 2009
    The dwellers of Vault 8 had stripped most of the tech from their Vault to build Vault City in the first place. The water purifying system was probably dismantled, the bits used elsewhere.
     
  6. Mathius

    Mathius First time out of the vault

    47
    Feb 27, 2014
    If you read the Fallout Bible 6 that isn't the case at all: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Bible_6

    So there it is.
     
  7. Gaspard

    Gaspard Kasparov

    833
    May 7, 2009
    So there is what? I understand from that Bible #6 quote that designers and/or role-players might wish to imagine it to be like a magic box of 1950s science, that's cool, but that is not what they went for with Fallout 2. Bethesda picked it up for Fallout 3 though.

    As I'm not a fan of the writing in Fallout 3 I would personally consider it non-canon or a mistake and ignore it if I were to write some fiction in the Fallout universe, but it boils down to individual preferences. I like the GECK as a briefcase with seeds and holodisc libraries with schematics and codes for helping the survivors in rebuilding a civilization.
     
  8. Mathius

    Mathius First time out of the vault

    47
    Feb 27, 2014
    Fallout 2 came out in '98. The bible was written in 2002. Everything I quoted came after fallout 2.

    From the same source:

    And even further down the page:

     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  9. Gaspard

    Gaspard Kasparov

    833
    May 7, 2009
    I can read. I can re-read as well. What are you trying to say, though? :eyebrow:
     
  10. Mathius

    Mathius First time out of the vault

    47
    Feb 27, 2014
    That regardless of what happened in Fallout 1 or 2, clearly Bethesda used the GECK as a plot device perhaps not the exact way Avallone intended, but at least in a manner that fits his guidelines, and also that he clearly states that it's a lot more than "a small survival box with some chemicals, crops and digital manuals". It clearly says it was able to control forcefields, rebuild parts of vaults, etc. etc.

    Lexx wrote, "Fo3 didn't got this concept and transformed the GECK into some form of wondermachine with magic abilities, which was really stupid."

    When in fact that's almost word for word what Avallone said it could be used for.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  11. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Alpharius oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    Just because Avellone said it could be so, doesn't mean it's a good concept nor does it mean it was used properly.
     
  12. Gaspard

    Gaspard Kasparov

    833
    May 7, 2009
    Wow, Fallout Bible can be disputed the same way the Bible can be disputed. Who'd have thought?

    Mathius, you're very zealous when it comes to pursuing this. What are your aims? Before you were quoting without explaining and now your explanation is not valid.

    It clearly says no such thing. What it does say however are two things (excluding the magic bit, which was left out of Fallout 2):
    a. the GECK includes data, schematics and codes for Vault machinery.
    b. it helps break down sections of the Vault into items usable in a community.

    You seem to be interpreting the "it helps break down" bit as "GECK manipulates matter". But when you combine a. with b., just as it was basically one sentence in the Bible, you should be able to make the connection that by using the schematics provided in a GECK and the codes to make new items and tools the citizens will be able to dismantle parts of the Vault and utilize said parts outside of the Vault itself (with the knowledge gained from the schematics which are included in the GECK and most likely not present in the Vault databases).
     
  13. Mathius

    Mathius First time out of the vault

    47
    Feb 27, 2014
    And that has nothing to do with anything I said. But since you brought it up, I see nothing wrong with the way it was used. James took a piece of the GECK and used it to make the water purifer work. No magic involved.

    I don't have any aims. I happen to like FO3, (as well as the others) and I enjoy discussing it, but I find that most of the people on this board have an extreme prejudice towards the game which I find irrational in some cases and seems to be driven by nostalgia. If I see something I disagree with I'm going to debate it. Like I said in the other thread if there's a FO3 board just so the game can be bashed, that's pretty juvenile. Just because you like 1 & 2 is no reason to hate 3. And most of the lore violations I see people complaining about are just false.

    You are correct, it provides instructions for these things. I misspoke.

    It doesn't change the fact that James uses a part of the GECK to make the water purifier work, which is well without the realm of a realistic use for the GECK given what that says above. It also doesn't change the fact that the pieces I quoted above definitely contradict what Lexx was complaining about. James didn't magically use the GECK to purify the water. He used part of it (which I don't believe the game says what. Could have been a piece of knowledge from the GECK for all we know.) to make the purifier work. However, if he had used it to magically create water that's covered as well, as stupid as it sounds.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
  14. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    The Avellone quote also doesn't fully contradict my statement.

    In the way it is used in Fallout 2, the GECK seems a way to lampshade the concept of Macguffin, in way way that seems very obvious, rather than a believable object. The way it workds and the purpose it serves should remain vague and unclear enough to support various plotlines...

    (talking to the Fallout 2 use. The intends in creating it in Fallout 1 were probably different as the general tone and thematics were differents)
     
  15. Gaspard

    Gaspard Kasparov

    833
    May 7, 2009
    Hum. Lexx did sum it up quite nicely. With a touch of personal opinion to spice it up, sure.

    How do you explain the bit when you activate GECK on your own in Fallout 3 and it.. ugh.. creates a magic/super-science light sphere that kills you in the process?



    Quote from the game:
    So.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  16. Mathius

    Mathius First time out of the vault

    47
    Feb 27, 2014
    Why do I need to explain it at all? What part of the quote above did you not understand? The GECK was made to be a plot device to move the story forward. It could be mundane or even frig'n magical in nature. If you do the main quest properly it's seen to be a component needed to get the purifier working. No magic needed, just add water. Obviously the video shows that it was also used as something else, but that's also an area the story suggests you don't enter, so is it an anti-matter device because Bethesda really wanted it to be, or because they thought it would make for a good laugh for you to blow yourself up after you found a way around their little trap? It doesn't matter to me one way or another.

    Let me quote something else from the fallout bible, from the very beginning that every one of you rabid FO1 and 2 fans seemed to have missed out on:

    The lore was meant to be an ever changing, adapting thing based on the needs of the writers. Because even the creators didn't take this **** too seriously. It's about having fun.
     
  17. Gaspard

    Gaspard Kasparov

    833
    May 7, 2009
    That's odd. So far you've convinced me of the opposite :V

    Please do try not blaming me for not understanding your quotes. If you quote somebody beside yourself, please add an explanation. Here's a quote for you:

    Keywords here are "background" and "first games".

    The Bibles consist of material, design documents included, that was used during the development. Brainstorming went in there as well. But you can see what went in and what went out when you play the games. For example the G.E.C.K. was never used (i.e. turned on) in the game. It was only stated that the Vault Dwellers from the Holy Thirteen and Arroyans moved together and used their combined knowledge to start a new settlement.

    Now, you're right that Bethesda didn't really do anything wrong. Everything was politically correct. You can't see GECK in action before Fallout 3. So from a player's point of view the GECK could have been magical for all we know. It's not shown in Fallout 2! The Bibles, which were posted from 2002 onwards, are an organized collection of (design) documents for the Fallout universe. Here's another quote from the Fallout wiki:

    And about this:

    The DISCLAIMERS you quoted are most likely from the designer documents bit of the Bibles. If you were clueless and assumed that Fallout 1 and 2 were vaporware (they were not) then you could interpret the docs however you wish, but as they were published you should use the Fallout Bibles as a supplement to the actual games. And in those games GECK was not a magical wonder thing.

    Of course it should be fun. But I'm having more fun here with you than I had with Fallout 3, magical GECK or not. Also, enough is enough :twitch: Gaspard over and out.
     
  18. Mathius

    Mathius First time out of the vault

    47
    Feb 27, 2014
    The bible was a set of guidelines used to create the games. They are considered canon, but they also state within themselves that they are not absolute and subject to change. Regardless of the GECK's usage in FO1 and FO2, the author himself stated that it was simply used as a plot device and wasn't an idea that was fully fleshed out. Which was established way back in post #2. Arguing about it won't change facts. Facts that I quoted for you. But you're right. I probably should have elaborated on the quotes. Afterall, there's been copies of these things floating around since 2002 and you still haven't grasped the disclaimer on page 3.

    Also your comment about the disclaimers being from the designer documents bit? They were from Avellone. He even left his e-mail address as a signature. If I continue the quote:

     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  19. Wumbology

    Wumbology Actually a sentient CRT

    299
    Mar 5, 2013
    Eh, the GECK per Fallout 3 is a magic device that collapses matter to form a habitable environment (wasn't that the macguffin of a Star Trek movie?). The GECK per the Bible is just a very good instruction manual with some seeds. lemme repeat: if the GECK could be used to create a water-purifying device, then Fallout 1's whole plot is made pointless (because if a Wasteland doctor could make a almost-done purifier with scraps, so could a Vault).

    What I wanna know is how James uses a matter-collapsing ubertool to help purify water.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
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  20. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I always wondered why you need a GECK in Fallout 3. It would have made much more sense if you had to find a waterchip as in Fallout 1 to get the Purifier to work.
    Y'know, Papa James just disassembled the water purification of an abandoned vault and put it in the wasteland but couldn't get it to work because the waterchip was busted...
     
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