Fallout 2 mod Economy and Combat Rebalance mod

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by phobos2077, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. Hubal

    Hubal It Wandered In From the Wastes

    196
    Sep 11, 2014
    Phobos I just registered to tell you that you made this game AMAZING. Thank you a lot.
     
  2. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
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    Apr 24, 2010
    Ha, that is actually very interesting. Because initially she COULD. But some... people, after hard argument, talked me into moving electronic lockpicks away from Val to a later game, because "they are more of an easter-egg thing"...

    @Hubal: thanks.

    I have much more planned, since now I can remove many obstacles in modding with new sfall modifications. Traps should work much better in the next version (but it will probably be bugged in some other places).
    I had planned 1 or 2 new quests (combat-centric, as usual), finally try to implement some kind of smoke and/or flash grenades, some UI improvements. But that is long term plans (not earlier than december, I guess), for now I will try to fix critical bugs as they arise so you can continue playing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2014
  3. J_Fred

    J_Fred Long time lurker

    286
    Dec 22, 2013
    Still going well on my end as well, phobos.

    I had a small issue with Val... she says to come back and she'll teach me a few things, but I never get the option to learn anyhting from her (or pay her).

    Not sure what is causing the issue.
     
  4. Brunzer

    Brunzer First time out of the vault

    83
    Apr 9, 2010
    This mod is a great initiative, rebalancing the economy and weapons is just the thing to make Fallout 2 interesting again for people like me who know the game like the back of their hand. Much appreciated, phobos2077.

    I’ve just played through Arroyo and I noticed that quest items don’t disappear from my inventory. I still have the temple key and the flint. Also, there were no broc flowers in the hunting grounds.

    The loot you can obtain in the Toxic Caves might be a bit too much too early. What really bothers me though is Algernon and his basement. His free upgrades are just too much and that you miraculously find exactly what you need to enter the Toxic Caves (electronic lockpicks and 2 emp-grenades) makes it an exploit. Which, by extension, makes me feel like I’m cheating when I loot the Toxic Caves. In vanilla they were the only electronic lockpicks you can find before San Francisco. And after San Francisco, the loot in the Toxic Caves is completely outclassed.
     
  5. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
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    Apr 24, 2010
    Well flint was meant to stay for further crafting (you can find another flint in the Den), but strange about temple key and broc flowers - I didn't change those maps and/or scripts involved... AFAIK.

    Well people already complained about loot in Toxic Caves.. I need to think about it as there are several solutions to this..
     
  6. Brunzer

    Brunzer First time out of the vault

    83
    Apr 9, 2010
    I’ve installed your mod over the latest restoration patch. I’m starting to doubt if the temple key staying in the inventory wasn’t always the case though. Also, I’ve noticed that the game won’t let me overwrite savegames made before installing the mod. Saving in a free slot presents no problems.

    The loot is fine depending on the point where you can obtain it. I’d say it should be accessible when you’ve been to the NCR or the EPA. Since it’s a small upgrade in gear to the stuff you can get in those places. Maybe even a bit earlier if access to it is more dependable on non-combat skills. Because you already have to backtrack quite a bit to get to it, and as a non-combatant the gear in the Toxic Caves doesn’t break the game progression. Early access might be considered a nice reward for honing different skills. Maybe by adding a science check to the computer in the caves in order to operate the elevator. That way you’ll need both science and repair or have both Vic and Myron in your team.
     
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  7. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
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    Apr 24, 2010
    Did you gave her the tools already? Waited a day? What is exact line she's saying? (floater or dialog?)

    Do you still have this issue? I remember seeing it a few times, but it was rare and disappeared by itself..
     
  8. lujo

    lujo Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    334
    Jun 14, 2013
    The deal with the toxic caves loot is mostly whether it gives you enough ammo that you don't need to ever buy any or not. It's mostly ammo except for the bozar and the armor, and there's 2 energy pistols. On the last test run I did the fix which scaled the ammo in lockers to the new clip sizes wasn't yet in place so I couldn't tell how much of it is still there, but the old numbers were ludicrous.

    Finding the lockpicks in NR and backtracking there won't really do much for you, finding the lockpick crafting recipies and going there when you return to Arroyo with the geck after you've done a bit of NCR is kinda how it was supposed to work (judging by the original loot composition and stuff). The issue can only really be if the gauss, caseless and energy weapon ammo is enough that you never have to buy any more (for me it mostly was).
     
  9. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
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    Apr 24, 2010
    Well, I plan to raise battery drain for all single-shot heavy energy weapons. So the player should be required to buy batteries (energy drain for Highwaymen currently exactly the same as in vanilla, as it is not affected by ammo pack sizes, nor it will be changed in future).

    As for the toxic caves, I think removing it from New Reno might be the best option if it will fix loot being OP because it's too early. Also maybe reducing gauss and caseless ammo would be appropriate (as gauss weapons are all single shot and very powerful in the mod), but there are not that many, AFAIK (2 or 3 packs of everything).
     
  10. Brunzer

    Brunzer First time out of the vault

    83
    Apr 9, 2010
    I’m level 10 and in Modoc now and the issue is still there.
    When learning to craft leather jackets in Klamath, it says in the textbox ‘You have learned to make leather armor’. Screenshot

    If I recall correctly it was 200 of each type. Which, when using burst weapons isn’t really that much. For the caseless ammo it’s 8 bursts with the vindicator, or 40 bursts with the H&K G11 (first obtainable in Redding). For the .223 ammo it’s 13 bursts with the Bozar. Energy cells & MFC’s last a bit longer, save for the Gatling Laser, but they’re also used for the car. 200 rounds of 2mm EC might be a bit much, but you’ll have to find a Gauss weapon first. Besides, that ammo type is already really scarce throughout the game.
    My only gripe with the Toxic Caves is that you can get the loot as early as level 8 (possibly even sooner). By which point you’re set up with the (second) best big gun in the game and a set of armor that removes all challenge in the midgame.
     
  11. lujo

    lujo Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    334
    Jun 14, 2013
    - Well, 40 bursts with H&K Caseless SMG's is problematic for several reasons:

    a) They're the most powerful SMG's, but they're also available for free in 2 places, in redding after lvl 10 from Frog Morton, and in VC if you do the whole raiders quest chain (which apart from killing raiders mostly involves just going around and you kinda end up with it for free). Since there is so little to do in Redding and since the guy who has the gun is right at the exit/entrance to the wannamingo mine, it's highly unlikely you'll ever need to buy the gun itself. Which reads to me as "this gun is ment to be balanced by ammo scarcity".

    b) that's supported by the fact that you're certainly going to have 2 other SMGs available, both weaker single target damage and range, but much, much more plentiful in ammo. With plentiful caseless ammo, and with 2 free ones up for grabs in midgame, it would mess up the SMG curve.

    c) Also, you're very likely not going to burst stuff with it, since you have loads of ammo on fine SMG's for oumidgame, so you can't really measure it by the ammount of bursts as it plays more like a really nasty pistol. So when you do find a lot of caseless ammo, it's more like you're getting ammo for a high-end pistol which you can get for free. So if you get, say, 4 clips of 100 per, that's a crapton of ammo.

    And if you're not bursting with it (and there's no reason to, tbh, grease and 10mm H&K burst for less AP and have craploads of ammo lying around), you even get to fire a few vindicator burst. Though I've never found a reason to even consider buying a vindicator minigun, myself, no clue who even does that or why...

    - Bozar is a sniper rifle in the mod, and uses a special kind of rare ammo, so that's not really a problem. However, my experience with getting a free sniper rifle with crazy damage is that it just clears Navarro by itself, but that's whole different topic.

    - The free armor - well, with the ones in the SAD replaced, that's basically the 3rd one you get before san fran. All in short sucession, tbh, one in vault 15, one in vault 13, you return with the geck, open toxic caves and get the 3rd one. And then there's... 3-4 more you get from san fran quests, which you can use for the implants as you'll have a few free power armors. If you do get it earlier you have to survive the rocket-bot, I'm not really sure you can do that at lvl 8.

    - The gauss ammo - eh, if you've opened the caves at the right time, which is when all you have left is basically san fran, mariposa and navarro, before the clip reduction it just ment that you'd never run out of ammo for it. Dunno about now, but that's a matter of decision of whether 2 mm EC ammo should be free or bought.

    - Energy cells - are plentiful around the game, in special random encounters especially. And the weapons using them eating more per shot is a good thing. Still, a big load in Toxic Caves ussually means you never have to buy any (the car is insignificant, tbh, especially if you buy the upgrades, and you can get a bunch of both upgrades and cells for free if you're a woman, and I played a guy w no problems twice now). The problem with energy weapons (in terms of economy) is that all the guns are free, all the upgrades are free, and all the ammo is mostly free. And 2-3 NPC's can also use them very well, so the skill is free (this is mostly why they weren't made too useful). I'm not counting gatling laser in the equation, that's just silly overkill, but in terms of never spending money on weapons/ammo they're basically the biggest culprit (especially if buffed in any way, as then you don't have to spend on OTHER stuff because you don't need it as much).

    Depending on what one wants them to be and how one wants the economy to work, it can go several ways - either nerf them back and leave everything lying around, not nerf them back (completely) but cut down on ammo lying around / ammo usage efficency, make upgrading them way more difficult/involving...
     
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  12. Brunzer

    Brunzer First time out of the vault

    83
    Apr 9, 2010
    Found some typo’s:

    Vault City, information center.
    ‘but he buy come in to buy books from me’. That’s one buy to many. screenshot

    Vault City, Valerie.
    ‘these things require fuel cells’ should be require. I’m not a native speaker, but I feel the following sentences would flow more naturally with a few small adjustments.

    ‘You’d think I made you a terror of the wasteland…’
    ‘You’d think I made you the terror of the wasteland…’

    ‘and good luck finding those. Only people who can get a hold of any are the ones…’
    ‘and good luck finding any. Only people that can get a hold of those are the ones…’

    Screenshot

    Vault City, Dr. Troy.

    ‘We can ussually produce all we need’ should be usually. Screenshot
    ‘and we’ve had truble obtaining those.’ Should be trouble. Also, ‘had’ should be excluded, since it implies he had troubles, yet they are now a thing of the past. Screenshot

    MISC:
    Amount of Ammo displayed when picking it up are often the original numbers. In the inventory it displays as it should. Screenshot


    Found an issue with raiders in random encounters. The female raiders, those clad in black leather are equipped with weapons (rifles) they don’t have animations for. I think they can use submachine guns, knives, grenades and any pistol that uses the submachine gun animation. Maybe even some big guns. Savegame



    It is a midgame weapon, outclassed by the later obtainable small guns like the G11e and the Gauss weapons. As such I’ve always considered the H&K G11 a mixed bag. As a submachine gun the P90c deals more damage per burst for less action points, although with less range. As a single shot weapon the G11 is easily matched or even outclassed by many rifles and pistols.

    It deals less damage, both in burst mode and single shot, when compared to the Pancor Jackhammer and the H&K CAWS. Its redeeming quality is the caseless ammo which has some nice modifiers, yet the scarcity of this ammo is also a major drawback. The CAWS has the nifty innate Weapon Penetrate ability, which counterbalances the advantages of the caseless ammo against opponents with high DT. Due to its higher accuracy though, the G11 is better for bursts at long range.

    I’ve always treated this weapon as a small boost or buff, for a special occasion. Like that potion of giant strength in Baldur’s Gate you saved up to give you a little edge in that upcoming boss fight, not something to waste on mere trash mobs. In Fallout 2 you might use it to either clear the wannamingo mine, wipe out the raiders or deal with Vault 15. That’s about all you can do with 40 bursts from the G11. 200 rounds of caseless is definitely not enough to use the gun as your standard sidearm or even use it for more than one of the examples I mentioned.

    Now, you’ll get some ammo from Frog Morton if you kill him quick enough and you’ll get another 50 caseless loaded in the G11 from Vault City. Add to that the occasional brick of ammo you’ll obtain from Buster in the NCR and you’ve got another 2-300 rounds. So I don’t think it messes up the SMG curve. This mod takes care of the barter prices (two of these guns used to equal 13,000 caps), combined with a somewhat non-exploiting playing style (cheesing can break the balance in any game) and you’ve got a nice weapon to pull out for those special occasions.

    It takes some cheesing, but you can steal a psycho from the dude that’s guarding Vic in the Den. Get him drunk first for easier stealing. Or you can buy it from Renesco. This lets you survive the first attack from the Robot (or initiate combat first by holding down A in the elevator, but that’s too much cheese, even for me). Next walk through the door opposite the elevator. The robot will spend all his action points to move towards you and is now standing next to you. Use the 2 emp-grenades (hardly any skill required since he’s next to you) to kill him.

    Note that this is a combat armor MKII, so even slightly better than the combat armors you’d normally obtain much later in the game.

    I haven’t played this far yet, so I’ll disagree with you once I have a somewhat informed opnion about the matter.
     
  13. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
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    Apr 24, 2010
    Thanks for the feedback.

    New dialogs were written for me by another non-native english speaker that still better than I am :)

    Yeah, this is normal (it's how pack sizes fix is working for pre-existing ammo/weapons on maps). I will probably replace this later with more aggressive (and not noticeable) fix once I'm confident enough.

    I can't download it, please use better file hosting (or attachments). It's sad that when we have things like Dropbox, some people still use ugly file sharing services..

    You mean the punk girl with green hair? Will be corrected in next update.


    Here's what I did with Toxic Caves loot:
    - replaced combat armor MK2 with MK1
    - unloaded both energy pistols and Bozar
    - reduced SEC amount considerably, reduced gauss ammo to 20 and caseless ammo to 80

    Do you approve? Might be also interesting to increase bot encounter difficulty somehow (Bozar will still be good enough reward for your trouble, even without ammo, because of it's power).
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  14. Brunzer

    Brunzer First time out of the vault

    83
    Apr 9, 2010
    Do you mean that new dialog is written to replace the current one? In that case I won’t bother reporting typo’s.
    Or do you mean that someone else wrote the current dialog? If so, I’ll happily continue proof-reading.

    Yes, that’s the one.

    Well, first of all, thanks for valuing my opinion. Here’s how I see it:

    1. If early access to the Toxic Caves stays as it is, nerfing the loot is a good idea.
    2. If access is postponed until you’ve reached the NCR, then the loot is good as it is. Combat armor mk II is a small step up from mk I. Else the next armor upgrade would be the power armor in the military base, rendering the mkII combat armor obsolete.
    3. A much more elaborate, but imo more satisfying way, would be to make it so that access requires more non-combat skills. As a reward for players that invested skill points and perks in such skills. Maybe by increasing the power of the robot, yet allow it to be disabled with a science check.

    Caseless comes in a quantity of 50 in vanilla. Are you sure you haven’t actually increased it?
     
  15. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
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    Apr 24, 2010
    The latter. I appreciate typo-hunting.

    I've just checked vanilla version of toxic caves in mapper, there are at least 200 caseless ammo in there.
     
  16. lujo

    lujo Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    334
    Jun 14, 2013
    ^ Technically simply making the elevator door require Mk II lockpicks would do 2 things:

    1) Make sure you can't possibly cheeze it open early.
    2) Let the regular electronic lockpicks be where they are in NR so you can use them wherever else they're applicable, like the vault doors and stuff.

    What should be done in that case is find a really good way to inform the player of this in game, like adding something to an existing computer script which only triggers if you're on the toxic caves map, so that it could explain the situation to you. Otherwise there's no really good way to tell the player that he needs MK II lockpicks if he hasn't even seen electronic (or even regular) lockpicks before (immersion wise).

    The only way to get those (off the top of my head) is from a shop in San Fran (maybe) and by crafting them after finding the recipie (it's in a pretty appropriate spot). So if this is done, maybe add a free one somewhere or something?

    As for the H&K G11 - yeah, it's basically a random powerup / muscle through tough spots kind of gun, not something you're ment to reliably use. Keeping the ammo at frog morton/vault city/random packs here and there makes sure it stays that way. And you also have to remember that SMG's are what Sulik uses, so when we're talking SMG's vs. rifles that has to be kept in mind.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
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  17. Brunzer

    Brunzer First time out of the vault

    83
    Apr 9, 2010
    Good, because I’ve found another one. Sergeant Stark says, after returning from Broken Hills, ‘Here’s you pay’. Should be ‘Here’s your pay’. Screenshot

    Right now I’ve run into a bug I haven’t encountered before. It started at the chop shop in New Reno, though I don’t know if it’s related to that location. When I enter barter mode, I’m immediately forced out the screen. Afterwards the barterscreen stays visible, but cannot be interacted with. A red question mark comes in the top left of the screen and a variety of bugs happen (like disappearing items) until the game crashes. Not sure if this is even related to your mod, or just a flux. I’m continuing from an earlier save. Savegame

    In vanilla you could buy them in San Francisco or get them at Navarro. In the RP they can also be found in the EPA (not sure about that).
    I like your suggestion. The lockpicks have to available at a point in the game where you still can get some mileage out of the loot though. How about getting the recipe to craft them from the Brainbot (best brain only)?
     
  18. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
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    Apr 24, 2010
    Strange, doesn't repeat for me.. played a bit from your save, bartered with a few people. What might help is if you configure sfall debugging mode on your end, it will create file "debug.log" which sometimes contain some useful information when something goes wrong. You didn't update sfall by yourself, right? (using version from RP?)
    1) Download this http://sourceforge.net/projects/sfall/files/Modders pack/modderspack 3.3.7z/download
    2) backup your "ddraw.dll"
    3) copy ddraw.dll from "debugging" folder in the archive, overwriting yours.
    4) Add following lines at the end of ddraw.ini:
    Code:
    [Debugging]
    DebugMode=2
    
    Init=1
    Hook=1
    Script=1
    Criticals=0
    
    5) Start the game once and check that debug.log file is being created.

    Now if you did this, when you encounter crash or strange behavior like that one, send me your debug.log file along with the samegame (in archive). Note that debug.log is created anew every time you start the game, so after a crash make sure to send the file before restarting the game.

    Thanks.
     
  19. lujo

    lujo Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    334
    Jun 14, 2013
    Heh, those are actually probably my typos, would you believe some of them actually happened due to changing where you get the electronic lockpick crafting recipies? XD

    Eh, EPA is/was loaded with random exotic/quest/flow specific loot, discussion and feedback on that led to a bit of a shakeup of many containers in there.

    Eh, getting the best brain for the brain bot takes a whooping 120 science (highest check in the game) which is needlessly restrictive IMO, as the bot can't wear armor and uses small guns which overlaps with CO, Vic, Miria and Cassidy, which means that if you get him very late you're not gonna use him, and it's really not worth it to boost science that high to get him when you first come to New Reno just to be able to get him (seeing that Cassidy is completely free and Miria is also kinda free-ish). I'd lower the brain requrements significantly, even 100% science for the best brain is likely a heavy investment regardless of anything. The other outcomes would have to be rescaled in that case, too.

    As for where you can learn the recipies, they're currently in a Vault 15 computer. It's still accessible without a fight if you know how, but it kinda works quite well, as the only places you can really get mileage out of them are the Vault in Vault City, Toxic Caves, and the big EPA loot stash (which gives you a reason to return to EPA for the major loot after you've been there earlier for the less major stuff, XP and the NPC).

    In thruth, the only good place to put a free mk. II lockpick would be in Mariposa. If you've done Vault 15 and 13, it's the only thing left which isn't a san-fran shop which doesn't require having them.



    As for regular lockpicks, I wouldn't mind being able to craft them tbh, even in Klamath. If the otherwise useless makeup item appeared before New Reno, you could have the basic lockpicks and a whole new camouflage item (temporary boost to stealth) be thought by someone sorta shady in klamath, like Sajag or Slim Picket. (Just an idea).
     
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  20. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
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    Apr 24, 2010
    Actually, I'm saving some ideas about stealth enhancements for a long time (they was always kind-a low priority) from the moment I've added knockout and stealth attack. One of them was the cloak (new armor, basically Robes, but the purple ones, which have full animation set, doesn't work as stealth cloak) which suppose to boost your stealth.
    I like stealth play in games. But in this case stealth is broken:
    - maps are too tight and linear, almost impossible to sneak about (and little point to it)
    - not sure how correctly sneak is working right now (I've always tried to use sneak in my playthroughs, but it was always limited to Toxic Caves - sneaking away from Golden Geckos)

    So if I (or someone else) will ever try to fix stealth element, it will require to:
    1) analyze entire game, every location. Where exactly you can sneak, where there is any point to it. How this sneak opportunities are scattered throughout the world.
    2) design solution for sneak in general (i.e. how many good sneak opportunities we need for this element to be interesting) and for each location in detail (redesign some maps).
    3) and only then, the easy part - adjust game mechanics related to player detection (if needed), add some tools for thieves like the cloak or even revived stealth boy

    So if after (1) there are hardly any location in the game (except Toxic Caves) where sneaking is appropriate, we could as well forget about this whole endeavor.

    But currently my strategic plans are following:
    1) expand melee weapons further (new sledge, spear, something else)
    2) add tactical elements to combat as a tradeoff for weapons that became stronger in general. This may include special grenade types, AI improvements, random encounter changes (enemy positions, map design), IF any of this is possible (for me) to implement.
    3) improve interface somehow for crafting, party orders (not sure about this, extremely difficult to do, not to mention it requires some serious UI graphics work).
    4) then, maybe, address stealth

    Economy and combat balance will be tweaked as needed of course, as well as new combat-oriented quests are added (not too many).

    For strategic plans to see the light one day, I really need some community help. There are already a couple of people willing to do testing, some design and writing, which is great, but I also need an artist for UI graphics (crafting menu, if I will ever get it to work, and party orders buttons) and some new effects (I definitely want "flame" effect for Molotovs, and maybe flashbang effect will be required).
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014