# Fallout 2 mod Economy and Combat Rebalance mod

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by phobos2077, Oct 3, 2010.

1. ### phobos2077Mildly DippedModder

Apr 24, 2010
Ok, got it. It's bug in Hi-res patch, the crash originates from it. I have no idea how to overcome it properly (previously I had a different crash in hi-res patch related to alternate ammo meter, but it is disabled now in f2_res.ini - and your save still crashes).

Workaround solution: open inventory, unload ammo from the gauss rifle, reload again. Crash should be gone. It's related to 20/10 ammo count for your weapon. Do you have any ideas how it could've happened? I put a safeguard in last version exactly for this kind of problems - ammo counts for all weapons in all containers and critters on map should be normalized upon first entering the map... Either there is something wrong in the logic or it's a player fault (save editing or proto editing)

2. ### Beaviz81First time out of the vault

Mar 22, 2015
I actually prefer Vic to Cassidy as Cassidy has a tendency to charge stuff that shouldn't be charged by an old man (I'm talking about him in Powered Armour) while my guy is standing there with a machine-gun ready to do some mayhem. By the end of the game Vic has actually 12 AP to Cassidy's 10 and he stay back and snipe without the need to rush enemies.

3. ### 5545TreyUnderground Deviant

Jun 25, 2014
Makes me feel like a fool for not realizing the clip of the Gauss Rifle was cut in half. Maybe I think missed the part where your OP stated that the Gauss Rifle's clip would have 10 rounds instead of 20. Anyway, thank you.

Vic is a beast of a man when he wields a long range weapon. Vic+Cassidy with Gauss Rifles=best combination.

4. ### J_FredLong time lurker

Dec 22, 2013
I didn't know this was part of the mod/hi res patch. I have this happen from time to time if I change a weapon and then go back to an old save. Once I empty the ammo, the problem is gone.

Good to know!

5. ### jasperFirst time out of the vault

Jan 21, 2011

1. I see you include YAAM with your mod. Does that mean that I have to de-select it when installing RP 2.3.3 via it's installer? Or does it mean that I have to check it? Or it does not matter?

2. I see you include (?) your updated party order mod in this. Does that mean I should not install it separetly?

3. Is this compatible with Endocores mods? Namely:

4. Is this compatible with jim's updated NPCs loot bodies mod? Here: http://www.nma-fallout.com/showthre...t-Bodies-mod&p=4047315&viewfull=1#post4047315

Thanks

6. ### phobos2077Mildly DippedModder

Apr 24, 2010
1 and 2 - doesn't matter. EcCo installer will overwrite script and appropriate sfall setting anyway.
I'm not sure about Endocore mods compatibility, need to investigate it someday...
4 - I assume the mod only includes some global scripts? (gl*.int files) If so, you should try it. Will probably work.

7. ### jasperFirst time out of the vault

Jan 21, 2011
Thanks for the answers. This mod is really awesome. I just wanted to ask something. I have noticed that in random encounters, people does not drop any ammo. I mean at all. They use ammo against me though, but when they die they have no ammo at all. I understand that this mod modifies the ammo when the people die, but I thought it should reduce it, not remove it outright? That's unrealistic and highly annoying as well. I'm lvl 9 now and I haven't seen a single bullet drop from a corpse. In the installer, I stuck with the default value (half the ammo). Is this a bug?

Weapons do drop as expected (I unselected the option about weapons getting destroyed with a probability, and I selected that the weapons should fall to the ground - this works)

I am just using RP 2.3.3 and your mod (latest). I was using jims npcs loot bodies mod but it crashed my game so I removed it again.

8. ### phobos2077Mildly DippedModder

Apr 24, 2010
Could you please open your "combat.ini", search for "reduce_ammo_percent=" and look what value is stored there?
Do enemies have ammo left in their weapons after death?
Do enemies drop ammo in normal encounters (in towns)?

It should be noted that in most of the random encounters people only have loaded weapons and no spare ammo. It was like that in vanilla too.

9. ### jasperFirst time out of the vault

Jan 21, 2011
Hmm it's funny how long it has been since I played Fallout 2... I remember getting spare ammo from the random encounters then, but I probably just remember it wrongly. Either way, you are of course correct, the weapons are loaded with ammo indeed. Also, I have been getting some nastier encouters after I posted and I am recieving ammo in a proper rate. So there is no bug. Just my bad memory of how this game worked.

And I also have to say, while I am here, your mod is a damned masterpiece. It really gives the game that little extra scavenging feeling. And everything works really smooth. I have not encountered any glitches and everything fits seamlessly into the game. Very proffessional - the tweaks to weapons, the rebalances of the economy, crafting. It all feels really natural and it gives a lot to the game for me. Also, I never feel that it gets TOO tough. That is something I hate with "these kinds" of mods. They tend to get annoying and/or really cumbersome, sacrificing the enjoyment of the game for a constant struggle. This is not the case with your mod. I (as I said) picked the "balanced" settings and I really feel that they are just that. I struggle, and the game is harder, but never so much as to be annoying or to get me into impossible situations. It really gives a good sense of accomplishment (much more so than the regular game) but yet it does not constantly feel like an uphill struggle (which would be bad in a computer game IMO - you ARE the hero after all). Frankly, this truly is a mod that only enhances the feel of Fallout, without sacrificing anything. This should be a must-install for a player of any skill. Just had to throw that out there.

Also some feedback on the Hakunin dream sequences - I feel the delays you have put in place are spot on. I play at pretty normal speed I guess, and I try to do most of the quests but I am not excessive about it, and they flow very natural. Not too fast and not too slow.

Thanks for the mod.

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10. ### J_FredLong time lurker

Dec 22, 2013
Jasper, glad there's another convert. I honestly think this should be integrated into the Restoration Project... it's THAT good.

I still don't have the most recent mod, but I'll probably give it a shot in a month or so when I get back in to PC gaming. It's about time for my quarterly run through of Fallout 2, less I forget what a great game really is.

Phobos, any updates for this mod lately? I stop in from time to time just to check.

11. ### lostabroad2First time out of the vault

Apr 2, 2013
I liked what this mod tried to do. Its aims are good and the combat rebalance is nice but the economic changes aren't great. The problem in the original Barter formula is easily identified and there were 3 fairly straight forward ways of dealing with it. Unfortunately another solution has been used and that solution doesn't deal with the original problem.

To start the game Barter is calculated as 4 * CH. Thus Barter is 4, 8, 12,...36, 40. Additionally gamers can choose the Gifted trait which reduces skills by 10. Thus the starting ranges for Barter are -6 to 40. If you have CH 4 and Gifted your Barter skill is 6. If you start with CH 6 and you don't choose Gifted your starting Barter skill is 24. 6-24 is likely the starting Barter range for most gamers.

For trading purposes Fallout 2 selects the party member with the highest Barter skill as the reference point. Sulik is the 1st NPC who can be recruited and his Barter skill is 50. Thus if Chosen One's Barter skill is 24 boosting this skill level up to 50 will have ZERO effect if Sulik is in the party. Cassidy and Lenny have Barter skills of 80. If a gamer starts with CH 2 and the Gifted trait his Barter skill will be -2. With Cassidy or Lenny as a companion he'd have to spend 82 skill points on Barter with no effect before any future skill points spent on Barter would do any good. Forcing gamers to spend huge amounts of skill points on something that won't benefit them until much later on is the wrong way to go.

Even with the Barter skill artificially boosted to 80 the trading prices for Metal Armour, Tommy Guns, and that level of inventory are around 9 for 1. This mod might be good at the end of the game but it sucks all the fun out of the early and middle parts of the game.

For Barter to be genuinely useful it has to be the primary stat used in trading calculations. The best solution would be if the calculation ignored the Barter skill values of all party members other than the Chosen One. If this could have been easily changed I have no doubt it would have been done. The 2nd solution would have been to change the Barter skill values in the original settings of all possible NPCs to 0. This might be achievable but I can see other problems arising if the mod were used in conjunction with other mods that relied on unaltered protos. The 3rd solution is inelegant but it's probably the most practical. Before the Temple of Trials begins give the Chosen One a bonus to the barter skill equal to the maximum difference between the lowest possible starting Barter skill value and the highest NPC Barter skill value. This would effectively bypass all NPCs from the Barter calculation. The bonus value should then be used as the new zero point for new Barter calculations. I don't know the Barter skill values for all NPCs. Cassidy and Lanny are 80. Sulik and Myron are 50. Vic, Miria, and Davin are all 40 or below. If no other NPCs have Barter skill values higher than 80 the bonus figure would be 86. It should be fairly easily to modify the original game buying and selling prices with a simple multiplier to achieve the desired range. EG with a minimum possible Barter skill of 80 and a desired minimum selling price for the Chosen One at 30% of true value a modifier of INTEGER (Old Selling Price) * ( (Dude_Barter - 20) / 200) would work. Even with CH 10, Gifted not selected, and Barter skill tagged, the maximum starting Barter skill value would be 146. At that level the selling price would be at 63% of true value. If the original selling price for Merchants were to be modified by ( (1286 - Dude_Barter) / 1000) trading should be difficult enough.

A by-product of any such change would be to effectively penalise anyone with an original CH of 4 or higher by up to 10 skill points if they chose the Gifted perk.

I thought this mod was a really good effort. I hate to be negative about it.

12. ### phobos2077Mildly DippedModder

Apr 24, 2010
The main problem with original economics is a huge amounts of money you can make by just selling stuff. This problem was dealt by lowering the selling prices.

Your assumption is wrong. In reality, old version of barter mod didn't actually take NPC barter skill level into account at all, so I had fix that. Though I see your point about high NPC stats making it pointless to raise Barter skill if you have someone who's good at trading in your party, this was deliberately left that way to match other skills (lockpicking, science, etc. - NPC with higher skills helps you, also with crafting system - NPC with high Repair, Traps, Melee Weapons, etc. help you to craft stuff earlier).

Your issue can easily be solved with a small change in barter script. I'll probably add option to ignore NPC Barter skill level in the next version. If you don't like the coefficients, just edit barter.ini and change what you like. OR use Script Editor and edit the formula itself (source code is included in the mod), it's pretty easy. The current "balanced" setting has fair amount thinking and calculations put into it. The goal was to make economy feel not so broken, force players to sometimes take quests for money and spend this money on drugs and ammo (another part of the mod).

13. ### burnMildly DippedModder

Apr 22, 2012
I'd like to provide some feedback, too. First, thanks for the great mod, I can see that a lot of work has been put into it.

But, I think it goes a bit over the top with barter. While I understand where is it coming from (original economy is screwed), the difference between "buying" and "selling" prices is simply not believable. With low barter, I get $19 for an AP rocket. And I can buy it back for about$2300. That's over 2 orders of magnitude. I'd rather shove that rocket up the merchant's ass. For free. That's more sane, I can roleplay that. I can't roleplay being so dumb as to be overcharged 100 times.
Anyway, that's just my take on the default barter configuration (which I adjusted and now playing happily).

And, there are some other minor comments:

1. Crafting is rarely useful. Recipes are too expensive and usually not worth it. Why would I need to learn how to create a leather jacket for \$300 in Klamath, when I can buy leather armor already? Spike traps do some 10 damage. What is there to do with them?
Basically, the only thing I do craft are stimpacks and superstimpacks. (Which, incidentally, brings up the question - why Myron uses 1 stimpack to create a superstim, and player needs two?)
I'd think about making recipes cheaper, accessible earlier, and lower skill checks. Otherwise, it's hardly ever used.
2. As far as I understand, Skeeter is supposed to be the ammo master. He "teaches", but the recipes never appear in the menu. (Not that there's a lack of ammo, anyway)

• [Like] x 1
14. ### phobos2077Mildly DippedModder

Apr 24, 2010
That's interesting. Well in order to make barter skill useful and actually feel the difference as you progress it, there had to be some shift in price differences on low and high ends of skill level. It's funny that most people actually complained that prices are too low and asked how they could make it more hard-core That's precisely the reason why barter formula is completely configurable. But I guess less "curvy" option in the installer might be a good idea...

Well armor crafting was initially more like a left-over from original Mr.Fixit. You should theoretically be able to make some money by armor crafting at certain skill levels. Also I think crafting your armor might just be interesting (and slightly cheaper).
Spike traps actually can do much more damage as your skill progresses (there is a Trap Skill book if you don't want to spend your skill points in otherwise useless skill). Also don't forget that there are explosive traps...
I had feedback from some players in the past that they actually found some interesting use for spike traps. I designed them specifically for gecko hunting (you can lure them in), and occasional fun in normal combat encounters.

Maybe Myron is just a kick-ass chemist?

Sound like a bug, need to check it. There are actually new unique ammo types that you can craft which you can't get anywhere else. It was supposed to be one of the main reasons to use crafting

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15. ### burnMildly DippedModder

Apr 22, 2012
Yes, of course, and the mod does that. It's just that it looks unrealistic. (Some people probably won't be bothered by that, but I'd rather have those extra guns).
The core reason of the original problem is the abundance of guns. It is circumvented partly by reducing loot. Probably it could be circumvented further by changing relative guns prices, so that the player just can't buy a gauss pistol by accumulating enough desert eagles.
Anyway, that's just my thoughts on the matter, maybe I'm a minority here.

Maybe, but the end result is that I go to Myron and don't craft it myself.

By the way, great job with grenade launchers. Finally, some useful big gun not at the end of the game.

Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
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16. ### J_FredLong time lurker

Dec 22, 2013
Burn, the Mr.Fixit ini provided in Phobos' mod is easily modifiable.

For armors, I added in craftable Metal Armor Mk.II, Combat Armor Mk.II and Hardened PA, and it makes the armor crafting system a bit more viable, though you do need VERY high science/repair to make each of these (100+ in both skills for the Hardened PA), and the base armor of course (you can't make Combat Armor or Power Armor from scratch). It fits well for me.

As for ammo, I made the option to create AP ammo variants with a super tool kit and rocks... it's a big push, but without adding in a new item (and displacing it throughout the wasteland), it's the best I could do. I also made it possible to convert Small Energy Cells to Micro Fusion cells and vice-versa for the energy weapons Chosen One. I think the 5.56/.223 AP ammo added by the game is superb, and I'm really glad phobos took the time to put it in. I also like the different shotgun ammo. I even added 4/0 Buckshot as a craftable ammo for a bit more damage over regular shot.

For the weapons, I added the ability to upgrade energy weapons to their second tier (Magneto laser Rifle, Plasma Pistol Mk.II, Laser Rifle Ext. cap. and the Turbo Plasma Rifle) with high enough science and energy weapons skills (70-110 depending on the weapon). It adds more to the crafting, imo.

I tried to get phobos to add this same functionality, but he just doesn't like me! (kdding).

All this to say, phobos' mod is SUPERB, and the way he set up the mod makes it easy for novices like me to add what they see fit to tweak it. If you can edit the .frm images, use Cubik's item editor, and type a few things into notepad, you can make any item you want craftable. I still can't get over how awesome this mod is. It's up there with Killaps RP, the Megamod and Magnus' Weapons Redone (shame they don't all work together). One of the best Fallout mods, ever, in my opinion.

17. ### burnMildly DippedModder

Apr 22, 2012
One more observation: I think the installer could be a bit more elaborate on the some options. "Rebalance also armor on PC" or "Changes in critters" doesn't tell much, for example. "New items" is being mentioned in at least 3 options, maybe they should've been made mutually exclusive?

I searched for ini files, and I don't see that. Which file do you mean?

18. ### J_FredLong time lurker

Dec 22, 2013
Sorry, it's in \text\english\dialogue. It's called test0.msg in my folder. It may just be test.msg. In it you will see all of the crafting recipes. If you want to add in a turbo plasma rifle, it would look like this:

{4500}{}{[ITEM]}
{4501}{}{233} # Item PID for the Turbo Plasma Rifle, this is what you will craft.
{4502}{}{pcx/items/turboplasma.pcx} # Item inventory frame
{4503}{}{170060}
{4504}{}{CRFT_EL2} # craft electronics, you will need the stage 2 electronics crafting ability
{4505}{}{190000} # 5 h 00 m - time to craft
{4506}{}{NO}
{4507}{}{10} # Weapons - it's in the weapons (10) category in Mr. Fixit
{4508}{}{[TOOLS]} # The items you need to craft the weapon (not consumed, only need them in inventory)
{4509}{}{228} # PID_TECHNICAL_MANUAL
{4510}{}{308} # PID_SUPER_TOOL_KIT
{4511}{}{73} # BIG BOOK OF SCIENCE
{4512}{}{[SKILLS]} # Skills required to craft
{4513}{}{SKILL_REPAIR:120}
{4514}{}{SKILL_SCIENCE:120}
{4515}{}{SKILL_ENERGY_WEAPONS:120}
{4516}{}{SKILL_SMALL_GUNS:120}
{4517}{}{[COMPONENTS]} # Consumed items required
{4518}{}{15:1} # Item number for the standard Plasma Rifle, this item is used up.

So now, if you have a Plasma Rifle, Super Tool Kit, Technical Manual and Energy Weapons, Small Guns, Repair and Science at 120, you can craft the Turbo Plasma Rifle.
That's the jist of it. You may need to create the .pcx image files since they may not be in your items folders.

19. ### phobos2077Mildly DippedModder

Apr 24, 2010
Have you tried reading a readme which is shown at the first step of installation? It is also available in first post of this thread. It has detailed description of every feature. Some features are too complex to describe them in one line in a meaningful way.

Apr 22, 2012
I did.