Fallout 2 mod Economy and Combat Rebalance mod

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by phobos2077, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
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    596
    Apr 24, 2010
    Lowering selling prices is the main change of the Economy part of the mod. Reason is simple - selling the same amount of loot you get less actual money, so you won't become swimming in money after the first "X fighting Y" encounter. Loot reduction is another part addressing the same goal. As your barter skill increases, you will get more money from selling the same loot. Of course for simplicity, you can lock selling prices but I recommend using multiplier like 0.2 for this case.

    About high prices in stores, need to study actual situation, because "Balanced" formula was designed in a way so at early skill levels prices will be about 20% higher than vanilla, but they will drop much faster than vanilla as you progress. It's a non-linear function (there should be a graph somewhere in the thread...). I will study your balance solution of course.

    Well actually I'm working on an engine remake for this same game, which is #1 priority for me right now. In my opinion, it might prolong the life of the game more than any mod :)

    I will of course try to continue work on this mod, because of a lot of unexpected feedback recently (here and on another forum). Just finished my last exam at university so hopefully I can finally put my mind back to the game.

    PS: It's embarrassing to admit but Fallout 4 takes some of my time too >_>


     
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  2. drages

    drages First time out of the vault

    5
    Nov 14, 2015
    Nice to hear that. A new engine would be a total solution for any bugs and future mod contents for sure. I saw many miracles after some engine redone for another games like xcom.

    I looked for mod tools of this game and there is some many things to handle, many tools to work, packing unpacking so many files and I lost in chaos. I guess that modding would be much easier and simple with new engine. As I said this game is one of the eternal ones. I would like to be a modder with the new engine.

    A game combined fallout 1 and 2 with many new items, objects and crafting would be awesome.

    Fallout 4.. i will wait for a year for Bethesda and modding community to play :)
     
  3. burn

    burn A Smooth-Skin
    Modder

    610
    Apr 22, 2012
    The issue with this approach is that actual money don't hold value. With a few exceptions, money are literally worthless.
    The exceptions being the implants and power armor upgrade. Not sure, maybe I've forgotten something else, but these are the most prominent.
    Weapon upgrades might've been a factor, if a certain character wouldn't do them for free. Small cash transactions, like lending money to Fred, don't really matter anyway.

    So basically I see this component as a rough equivalent of "increase implants price". (Which is fine, but it could've simply done just that).


    Another reason why I skip it is that buying and selling are subjective. The player is as much of a merchant as the trader. You can't tell who's "selling", an thus using 2 distinct formulas seems counterintuitive and double-charging to me.
     
  4. Adolf

    Adolf First time out of the vault

    24
    Nov 6, 2015
    Interesting list of changes.
     
  5. lostabroad2

    lostabroad2 First time out of the vault

    66
    Apr 2, 2013
    In vanilla the price you pay for a $1000 item is, (or at least it should be), determined by the merchant's barter skill and the player's barter skill. The final price can be anywhere from $1500 to $6000. (i'm just making up figures here to demonstrate the principle rather than quoting useful information). However, the price you receive for selling the $1000 item is always $1000. This means if you never buy an item your Barter skill is completely irrelevant. The game is designed for players to do a lot of selling and not very much buying. From a gaming point of view it would have made more sense for the price you buy the item to be constant at $6000 and the price you sell the item at to vary from $1000 to $4000. That would have kept the same 1.5 to 6 range and Barter would have been much more relevant.

    From a logic standpoint neither system makes sense. Increasing Barter should raise the price you sell at and lower the price you buy at. Comparatively what this mod tries to do is set your selling range from $1000 at minimum Barter values to $2000 for maximum values. Your buying range is $6000 at minimum Barter and $3000 at maximum Barter. Thus you still have the 1.5 to 6 range. Obviously this mod radically changes the buying and selling coefficient. Opinions will differ on what that difference between the buying and selling should be.

    If you reset the selling price back to the default settings you're limiting the Economy Rebalance part of the mod and removing Barter skill from the game.

    I can't agree or disagree with your point about higher prices at the end of the game being the way to go because I never got far enough into the game. Not having a .txt list of all the items and prices in the mod was a handicap that made it difficult to suggest specific pricing improvements. A customisable .ini file would have been better still. Generally I thought increasing the price of the most expensive items and reducing the price of mid range items was the way to go. Generally I would have made weapons less expensive and ammo more expensive.
     
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  6. burn

    burn A Smooth-Skin
    Modder

    610
    Apr 22, 2012
    Um, no, it wouldn't. It would be just a cosmetic change.

    No, Barter still affects "buying" price.

    I didn't make such point.

    I do, however, agree that to actually rebalance the economy, relative item prices should be changed. Otherwise, it's mostly an exercise in "get your Barter high fast".
    In my game, I set some 70-80% of ammo/stimpacks to be lost on drop, and that nicely eats through the finances. (I also tried weapon destruction, but I just can't justify it in-game).
     
  7. KL1

    KL1 Psyker

    24
    Mar 23, 2016
    I downloaded this package at the beginning of the year and I have been extremely enjoying it since then. It transformed my previous experience with F2 and made it fun and challenging to play again. Thanks for everyone who contributed to make this happen.

    I have a few questions/comments I would like to ask/share.

    1. Is there a complete list of all the items that can be crafted? I ask because I have no way of knowing if I have talked to all the NPCs that would 'teach' me to craft stuff. I'm not asking for spoilers here, just a list of the full crafting items possible to see if I still need to run around searching for more crafting options or not. For example, is there someone to teach me crafting of Fuel MKII from standard fuel? How about Hardened PA from standard PA?

    2. Armor changes appear in the PC window except the Electrical kind, are the default values used from vanilla (as listed in the wiki)? I ask because I like to make charts of the damage different weapons will make vs each armor group.

    3. Now that the Solar Scorcher does Fire damage, does it use the Small Guns skill or Energy Weapon skill? What about the Bozar, now that's it's a single shot sniper rifle, does it use Small Guns skill or Big Guns skill?

    4. The XL70E3 is a very rare end game rifle, how come is it weaker (vs all kinds of armor) than the FN FAL, even when using the .223 AP ammo?

    5. How come a pack of 4.7mm "caseless" ammo is 20 and weighs 2, exactly like the 7.62mm, and 4 times the weight of the 5mm AP (which is 40 and weighs only 1)?

    6. M60 does the sound of a single shot, but give animation of a burst weapon when hitting a critter.

    7. Improved flamer uses Fuel MKII (blue) only and cannot use standard ones (red)!

    8. Never got the "Bounty Hunt" random encounter in 3 full playthroughs so far. Is there a specific area in the map for this, like the Alien Blaster trader above Modoc for example?

    9. What is the stealth element "blackjack" mention in the summary page of this mod at http://www.moddb.com/mods/ecco-gameplay-overhaul-for-restoration-project ?

    That's all for now.
    Thank you all for your time and effort.
     
  8. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
    Modder

    596
    Apr 24, 2010
    There is no such list, but you can find all schematics in this file: "..\Fallout2\data\Text\English\Dialog\test0.msg" (it is used by mod directly).

    I'm not sure what you're asking. Damage chart is a good idea, I wanted to do the same a while back (from raw prototype data) to review the weapon balance again and for documentation purposes.

    Solar Scorcher should use Small Guns skill and Bozar uses Big Guns.

    Well XL70E3 has burst twice as long to compensate for lower single-shot damage. .223 AP has identical stats to 7.62mm.

    Well actually 4.7mm pack is 40. 7.62x51 ammo is meant to be heavy.

    That's a bug. Apparently the game can't handle weapons with only burst fire mode properly.. I'll try to fix it.

    This is intentional. Improved Flamer has a hint for this in description, but it was false in vanilla.

    It is taken as normal quest.
    First one is given to you by mayor in Redding. The second one is in NCR police station.

    If you hit enemy in the head with the "club" or "hammer" weapon, while using stealth and staying behind them, you should send him to knockout with a critical. Not sure how useful it is, but it was fun to implement and play with it :)
     
  9. KL1

    KL1 Psyker

    24
    Mar 23, 2016
    Thanks for the detailed reply.

    I'm working on a damage chart for main weapons so I can roughly compare them against each armor category. I used the YAAM formula in RP even before installing the EcCo because I loved it. Having the DT of the ammo be the modifier for the DT and then the DR of the armor was simple enough and made sense. (Here is a link to a pdf of the damage chart I'm currently working on: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1wkJsIsnDOSdXF5eFRRZmFlQVU/view?usp=sharing ). That was why I ask about the Electrical DT/DR for Armor. I can see all modifications to Armor in the game by wearing each one and checking the character window for all kinds of damage (normal, fire, laser, plasma, explosion) but not for electrical. So I was asking if you have a lis of changes to the Electrical DT/DR value of any of the Armors. For example, does Metal Armor still has 0/0 like in this wikia page ( http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_2_armor_and_clothing )? Btw, what do you mean by "raw prototype data"?

    All your modification on weapon/ammo damage make sense in terms of the game play progress and balance. The only issue I had was with the XL70E3. Yes it has burst of 8 bullets (double the FN FAL), but in terms of damage I expect it to be much more powerful since it is a rare end game weapon. It has less single shot damage than FN FAL and .223 pistol, and similar burst damage to Assault Rifle and even less burst damage than both H&K P90c and G11E (all of these weapons not rare and already available at this point of the game). When I was playing the first time, I bought it with great anticipation and thought it would be the equivalent of a .223 pistol but in rifle format with burst :)) Of course I was very disappointed to see it not worth it. Anyway, I'm just explaining my experience as a user.

    I've checked all the schematics in the test0.msg and this is exactly what I was looking for. I generally understand the format used to write each craftable item, so my question now is: can I add to this file on my own? I mean if I follow the same format can I add crafting of Hardened Power Armor for example?

    About the weight of the caseless ammo, my comment was not clear or accurate enough. What I meant to say was shouldn't a 'caseless' ammo be lighter than full metal jacket or armor piercing ammo? I mean it is called 'caseless' which implies the weight of a casing for each bullet is eliminated. I don't know much about guns in real life, so if this doesn't make sense please ignore it. It's not a big deal anyway.

    Oh and lastly, why improved flamer "intentionally" made not to use standard fuel? What is the reasoning behind this decision? I mean the photo for both kinds of fuel look the same (only different in color) so the package looks of same size only with better quality fuel inside. An improved weapon, in that case, should be able to handle this as ammo. Maybe have it with less damage modifier (3/4 like YAAM) to make a difference.

    Cheers
     
  10. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
    Modder

    596
    Apr 24, 2010
    Electrical DT/DR values were not changed. Raw prototype data - stats taken from game files directly.

    Yes, you can add whatever you wish. The current schematics are not final as I was planning to expand on them a while ago. I wanted to add items solely to be used as crafting components (like metal plates, electrical components, etc.) and more ways to get new schematics (like buying them). Less "schematics for various stuff" and more "hand grenade", "metal armor MK2", etc. What do you think?

    Description for the Improved flamer:
     
  11. KL1

    KL1 Psyker

    24
    Mar 23, 2016
    Ok got it. I got all data from in the game itself, and the 'hidden' parts like weapons perks from the wikia.

    That is great news on 2 different levels. I can manually add crafting items (hurray!), and it seems you are willing to continue development in this area (double hurray!). :dance:
    I'll see if I can add the formula for Hardened PA. I'll post it here later to check if it is correct.

    About the Improved Flamer, here is how I understand the description:

    - "A Flambe 450 model flamethrower, varmiter variation. Fires a short spray of extremely hot, flammable liquid."
    It's an upgrade variation of the standard flamer, that gives better damage.
    - "Requires specialized fuel to work properly. This model has been modified to fire a hotter mixture which causes greater combustibility."
    In order to get that increase in damage, you'll have to use the improved fuel.

    The description doesn't say you can't use the standard fuel. It recommends using the improved fuel to see the benefits of the improvement in the weapon. The key word in the description is 'properly'. It's like using a weapons that requires Strength 7 and you only have Strength 6. You will have a disadvantage, but you can shoot it.
     
  12. KL1

    KL1 Psyker

    24
    Mar 23, 2016
    As I mention in my post above, here is my attempt adding HPA to the test0.msg file:

    Code:
    {4100}{}{[ITEM]}            # 4100 is the next sequence in the file
    {4101}{}{232}             # PID of Hardened PA
    {4102}{}{pcx/items/???.pcx}     # There is no pcx for HPA in the pcx folder
    {4103}{}{88055}             # No idea what this number is
    {4104}{}{}             # Leave empty for ALWAYS meaning no need for schematics since there is no teacher for it for now
    {4105}{}{864000}         # 24 h
    {4106}{}{NO}             # No idea what this is but it is NO for all items!
    {4107}{}{7}             # Under Armor category
    {4108}{}{[TOOLS]}         # Title for the tools needed for crafting
    {4109}{}{308}             # PID of Super Tool kit
    {4110}{}{[SKILLS]}         # Title for the skills needed for crafting
    {4111}{}{REPAIR:110}         # I think it should be at least that high
    {4112}{}{SCIENCE:110}         # I think it should be at least that high
    {4113}{}{[COMPONENTS]}         # Title for the components and quantity needed for crafting
    {4114}{}{3:1}             # PID of PA and quantity 1
    {4115}{}{2:2}             # PID of Metal Armor and quantity 2 because it covers only half body
    

    It will have a problem of course that it is there by default and not because an NPC 'teached' me the schematics for it. There is a section in the file labeled "craft learning messages (used in scripts of teachers)" so I can add a new one for HPA but if I understand correctly I also need to add it to a file containing the scripts for the NPC teachers. If that's correct, can you tell me which file is it.

    If the pcx files are simply photos of the items to be displayed in the crafting window, Can I just use a photo of PA (since it is the same as HPA) and convert it to pcx in photoshop then add it in the pcx/items folder?

    What is the number in line 3?
     
  13. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
    Modder

    596
    Apr 24, 2010
    Yes, you can create pcx file in photoshop and use it, but make sure to match background, it's not transparent.

    Line 3 is picture width * 1000 + height (wasn't my idea ;) )

    It's not so easy to add new teacher, because you need to write some new dialog, modify NPC script and compile it. Actually I was thinking to add schematics as items you can use (like skill books, but they will unlock new schematics instead). Obvious UnderRail influence here :) (great game, you should try it if you didn't)
     
  14. KL1

    KL1 Psyker

    24
    Mar 23, 2016
    That's a great idea actually and not just because it sounds easier to do. It would make sense in terms of game play. First, North of the wastelands there are NPCs who teach you the basics of crafting, then South of the wastelands (NCR + SanFran) there are merchants who sell skill books for advanced item crafting. So like you said previously, no more schematics, but more items to craft. Examples would be MKII variations of all kinds of Armor (especially the APA MKII which is sadly worthless because of bad placement in-game), and all possible upgrades to weapons that Algernon can do (Turbo Plasma Rifle, Improved Flamer, etc.)

    Speaking of Improved Flamer, I'm still interested in knowing your thoughts about my reply to you regarding the description. I still think the Improved flamer 'should' be able to use both kinds of fuel ammo, just like other weapons that can use AP variation of the same caliber. Anyway, with the ability to upgrade the standard flamer using skill books, there can also be skill books for crafting the MKII variation of the fuel.

    I added the crafting of Hardened PA and Fuel MKII in my game already. If you decide to include them, I willl send you the code and the pcx files so that you don't do any double work. I can also do other items if you wish. Just let me know. Oh btw, what is the PID for Rot Gut? In the wikia it says 460 but when I used that it turned to be a Military Base Holodisk. Checked back in the wikia but was surprised to find both having the same PID which obviously seems to be a mistake. I wanted to use Rot Gut as a component in making the Fuel MKII since it's only available at Gecko and Broken Hills bars.

    Don't know about UnderRail. Is it turn-based with similar graphics to FO2? These are the kind of games I enjoy playing now. I still play C&C Generals for example (yeah I'm old :)). Used to play FPS like Half Life and Unreal but not anymore.

    ------
    Note: Thanks for taking the time to reply to all my ramblings :notworthy:
     
  15. NovaRain

    NovaRain Casual Modder Modder

    Mar 10, 2007
    Given that standard fuel only has Dmg Mod of 3/4, and mk2 fuel has Dmg Mod of 1/1, I think it might be better if there's a way to limit the normal flamer using standard fuel only.
     
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  16. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
    Modder

    596
    Apr 24, 2010
    I'll see what can be done to limit normal flamer to regular fuel via scripts.

    You can send me all your work whenever you finish adding items. It might be really helpful.
    Rot Gut PID is 469. Highly recommend using F2wedit for browsing item stats.

    Yep, it's single-character turn-based RPG with setting similar to FO. It's mostly combat oriented though.

    Edit: YAY, these new sfall hook scripts pay off. I managed to block MK2 fuel from being loaded into regular Flamer via drag&drop.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  17. KL1

    KL1 Psyker

    24
    Mar 23, 2016
    Guys, this is already the case! At least in my setup it is: FO2 1.02.31 RP 2.3.3 SFALL 3.6 EcCo 0.6.2
    Standard Flamer uses only standard Fuel.
    Improved Flamer uses only Fuel MKII.
    My whole point is that this case is ok for the standard Flamer but doesn't make sense for the Improved Flamer. The upgrade to Improved Flamer, make it able to use the improved Fuel MKII but should not prevent it from using the standard Fuel. The reason is that both kinds of Fuel ammo have the same size, capacity, and weight. The only difference is the fuel content itself, hence the difference in damage stats (AC/DT/DM). It's just like guns using the same caliber bullets but different variety (10mm JHP/AP or .233 FMJ/AP).

    I will make sure to check UnderRail soon, as I prefer combat over normal quests that make you run around just talking to NPCs. Thanks for recommending F2wedit, it will make finding PIDs much easier than browsing the wikia.
     
  18. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
    Modder

    596
    Apr 24, 2010
    Currently MKII fuel has a different "caliber" from standard fuel, that's why they are not interchangeable. I'll make MKII the same caliber again, but limit it's usage with regular Flamer.
     
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  19. KL1

    KL1 Psyker

    24
    Mar 23, 2016
    Ah, I see. Good news :) Thanks for understanding.

    Like I mention before, I've already added Hardened PA and Fuel MKII as craftable items. Any other items you are thinking of to add to the crafting? I'm thinking of adding APA MKII upgrade for the APA from Navarro. The one you find at the end is useless and I feel that this item is simply wasted. I don't understand why the developers even bothered adding it to the game. Anyway, it would require extremely high skill levels and probably some rare components (uranium ore?). As discussed earlier, it would only be available in-game after buying the relevant skill book of course. I really like that idea. I'm not sure how it will work though. I mean do you plan on making a skill book per item? It would depend on how many more craftable items are added I guess.

    Anyway, I'm ready to make any new items (the code and pcx) and I'll send you everything. Just let me know how to send it.

    Cheers.
     
  20. phobos2077

    phobos2077 Mildly Dipped
    Modder

    596
    Apr 24, 2010
    At first there was no "schematics" for crafting, but I wanted to have players explore the game in order to craft (like any other modern game with crafting). So adding "general schematics" like "traps", "explosives" was an easy solution. Now I think collecting schematics as items might be a game in itself. I will continue to use existing system (where crafting ability is tied to sfall global variable) and some schematics will unlock 2 or 3 items if they are related.

    The trick with MKII fuel won't work, because NPC's can be ordered to load the weapon with whatever ammo they have... I doubt hook script will work here. Need other solution...