Enclave or Unity

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by SiriusShenanigans, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. Hulk'O'Saurus

    Hulk'O'Saurus Still Mildly Glowing

    230
    Jul 10, 2018
    OG Master makes for a better antagonist in the end. Matter of fact, OG Master is one of the best Villains ever created.

    The Enclave is a bit vague. Sure as hell they wanted to make fun of self-righteous, dogma-driven, militaristic, nationalistic, demagogic authoritarians(not only the US, btw), but you need more than that if you want to make a good Prime Believable Evil. After all, with a mere speech check and a single c-4 you turn them from hero to zero. Kinda meh.
     
  2. SiriusShenanigans

    SiriusShenanigans Those who write on Heaven’s walls...

    96
    Jun 27, 2018
    I feel like the Enclave and Ncr represent totally different things. Both are sorta... emulations of America, but there are huge differences between them. The NCR is an actual democracy, but the Enclave is not, and thats important because of who the enclave is. Its not just any random people from before the bombs fell, its the very people who pushed tensions towards war in the first place. Politicians who declared war, the military generals who sent their troops, and the aristocractic elite that demanded more resources that spawned the war. When you go to the Enclave, you talk to the president and he considers himself the president of the united states, but even though you are technically part of the US, you never voted for him and he doesn't care about you. There was study done by princeton, looking at 30 years of bills and whether they were likely to pass based on popular support or economic support, and basically the graph for popular support looks like this.

    The government is in a state where they simply do not care about what your opinion is regardless of their duty. That's exactly what the Enclave does, and I find that terrifying. The Enclave is the manifestation of these 3 groups of politicians, military generals, and aristocracy that have decided they are the only ones that matter and that everybody else is just fodder and resources. They are believable in that respect and they make for a killer satire. You come in from the wasteland explaining how similar you are as humans and they just don't care, because thats exactly what they are like. The Enclave is the ghost of the old world, and the NCR will never be quite like that. If there is any group in Fallout 2 that emulates them more, its going to be Vault City, who exhibits the same exceptionalism and pretentions about themselves versus wastelanders.

    Anyway, I'd love to hear about the instances that make the Master and the Unity really stand out to you. I played fallout 1 but I never felt like I spent enough time with it to get the whole story of the Master, and by the time I met him, he was just a man in a room.

    Also, here is a video explaining that study if you were interested.
     
  3. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    172
    Jul 4, 2018
    I am really no good at explaining what and how I think, so sorry if none of this appear clear or convincing to you but I will try since you ask.

    Democracy has never been anything else but a ideal, easy conditionning material for the people trapped by a few more powerful people. None of this is new, and it doesn't apply only in america or any other labeled democracy. It's like this everywhere, only the decorum and the means changes but the end is the same. Power, Control. Modern democracy ultimatly work better toward that end because it provide more day to day liberties and advantages to a part of the little people under it's control, it greatly reduce the risks of massive riots, 'coup d'etat', civil wars and other chaos that could disturb the circle in which the few with the real power thrives and know better than the size of their backside.
    But whatever the means employed, the end never change in every groups/government/whatever you want to call it. And would most people be better than that in a position of power? Doubtful, history show us that the few who might have had genuine good intentions quickly 'changed', or were usurped by less scrupulous people.

    And the NCR, as a faction/government, is exactly the same.
    What make them 'greyer' than the Enclave or the legion is that not everybody you meet from the NCR is representative of their government, or self proclamed leaders. Exactly like us.

    In a way, you answer yourself the question of what make the Master and his Unity so haunting. Regarding his personal history, you should speak with Harold at the Hub, and find his journals in the military base. And of course, speak with him.
    But beside, or because, everything that happened to him and the results it might have had on his mind, he figured out one thing and he couldn't keep living with it at some point. No matter what, even a nuclear apocalypse with a few survivors to start all over again, human nature will never change. Unless, maybe, humans evolve into a new species of 'super human/super mutant', and are all basically forced by that mutation to really start anew, to erase old instincts, ideas and try to reach his ideal of Unity. Even by force and that's where my own human individuality reject his means, 'everyone who isn't with me is against me, and will be killed or forced into cooperation regardless of anything else about these people'. In that aspect only, he is like a legion or a NCR, or a Enclave if you want, and that's what make him killable in my eyes, preferably by his own 'hand'.

    How it would have turned out if he had lived, and maybe solved the sterility problems, that's anyone's guess in the long term. Him and his Unity's ideals are still shadowing Fallout 2 and New Vegas in a way, because not surprisingly, everything he predicted for humanity as we know it, turned out to be true. The first end of old humanity's civilisations changed exactly nothing, and various factions are the same old ghosts of christmas's futures, trying to rebuild things as they were before, fighting over ideologies that aim for the same old goals.

    Well, I don't know how else to try to make my point, I am no good at debating. If I were I would probably be able to make it without writing that much.

    Just, back to reality, with your video, making a corruption form illegal won't stop any of it, there will be a new one right after, for the same or new peoples in official seats. And even caught the hand in the bag, these people are just making any eventual trials drag until the matter get out of view, or a scape goat is publicaly punished, for real or not. Then it's like nothing happened and one way or the other, things go on.
     
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  4. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Basically, I'm suspicious and hateful of any government but democracy and believe that when someone rules autocratically they should be killed.

    If you're competent, benevolent, and decent...you need to die.

    because it's better to have everything be shit than let someone have that kind of power.

    Poor House. But fuck that guy.

    The UNITY effectively kills you in order to make you a Super Mutant.

    It's like saying the Borg are superior to the Daleks.

    The Master is "us versus them" and every bit as genocidal as the Enclave. They just reanimate your corpse.
     
  5. Cliffy McEdgeface

    Cliffy McEdgeface bitch I will cut you

    899
    Jun 28, 2018


    Anyway, more on topic: Enclave arguably has more ways it could be interesting, but none of them are ever really well realized in the Fallout games, making Unity kind of the winner by default for me as far as "interesting villains" go.
     
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  6. hag

    hag The Master Did Nothing Wrong!

    121
    Aug 21, 2016
    I don't agree that the transformation is equivalent to death. I'm sorry, but that's hyperbole. Psychic death, maybe.
     
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  7. Squadcar

    Squadcar Literal Potbelly Vampire Goblin

    Jun 1, 2018
    I'm definitely siding with Unity and Master over Enclave. The Enclave needed more exposure in 2 in my opinion to be a better villainous faction.

    The time in Fallout 1 you're exploring everything has the overhanging these mutants are something bad and we're not sure what or at least I felt like it was a looming thing nearly throughout. Definitely not at first but after you first meet them, I feel like the background doesn't even forget them.
    In Fallout 2, I remember the Enclave on the video feed with the Deathclaws and pretty much nothing else of them until you get to San Fran and start traveling around that area. Maybe I just never got the random encounters that would have made them feel more well known.

    Also, for incentive I feel the Master's was done more properly. He legitimately thought that what he was doing was for the greater good of humanity, that we could only be preserved through forced evolution and a new way of life.
    The Enclave was satirical and awesome in that sense, I loved it. But I feel like the satire could have used more exposure and depth to strike home a little closer.

    Neither are bad as I see it. I just prefer Fallout 1 and the Master overall anyway. I think 1 was more well constructed in themes and ideas than 2 was. 2 was great because of all the content you could find, or skip!
     
  8. SiriusShenanigans

    SiriusShenanigans Those who write on Heaven’s walls...

    96
    Jun 27, 2018
    I feel like fallout 2 did a fine job presenting the enclave. There was the first Frank horrigan meeting, the crashed vertibird, the radio that Metzger is intercepting, the nuclear radio signal at the Poseidon reactor in gecko, vault city also played a lot of the attitudes and themes of the enclave, there's the Salvatore's who get all their weapons from the enclave, the scientist in broken hills, the remnants of the mission into Mariposa, that time they just ransacked your village Iraq style, the death of the death claws in vault 13 (you can talk to literally every single death claw in that vault I was so sad about them dying), Navarro's and San Francisco, the death of the bos soldier after you bring him the vertibird plans, and the oil rig. Not to mention things like "stories of bug men stealing cattle" or the political satire that can be extrapolated as enclave related from the Sierra military base. I love the themes fallout 2 because I feel like the message was about power corrupting and how life in the wasteland was actually pretty good, but this ghost of the past kept coming back to haunt it, keeping it from moving on, and the enclave is that ultimate manifestation of that ghost. Fallout 2 is the story of the wastelander defending his world from the past.
     
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  9. Squadcar

    Squadcar Literal Potbelly Vampire Goblin

    Jun 1, 2018
    You know, fair point. But I still stand by my preference of the two. There were just things that didn't stick with me about the Enclave I guess lol. My bad.

    EDIT: I mean to say that there were those things, but I just didn't remember them all as well as I do with Fallout 1's.
     
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  10. SiriusShenanigans

    SiriusShenanigans Those who write on Heaven’s walls...

    96
    Jun 27, 2018
    You know, I have the same issue with the first game. I sort of steered clear of the cathedral, because I don't like religious folks and I sorta knew that was like... unity territory, so I never got to have the build up of the whole mutant lore. A lot of the locations seemed really bereft of mutants besides necropolis or the mariposa base. By the time I was going up against the baddies I was still trying to figure out what their deal was. My first run I didn't even encounter the master, i just found the bomb underneath the base, which is like the most boring way to do something that sounds really cool. Of course I went back and saw to it that I saw the master, but I guess because I fought my way through so much I didn't feel like I knew the master very well by the time I was talking to him. His conversation was like:
    "well do you join the unity or do you die here?"
    "TASTE THE FORCE OF MY TEN THOUSAND POWERED FISTS UP YOUR ASS!"
    "Well, die here it then, I suppose."

    Like I had options to talk to him more, and I think I took them, but its not like the conversation was going anywhere. I think I killed all the people I could talk to for getting the sterility information, and in my defense, I was super good at punching things.

    I think master is super cool looking, like I love the body horror, I just didn't get his schtick very much.
     
  11. Squadcar

    Squadcar Literal Potbelly Vampire Goblin

    Jun 1, 2018
    I mean, they're both good games. And the beauty of especially the first two games is that you can experience these games fairly differently. You can beat both games in 10 minutes if you know what to do. So it's cool to me to see we have the same view points but reversed on the two games haha. I dig it! It's good, it's healthy for discussion.
     
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  12. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Well we know people who get dumped into it lose their memories and become loyal to the Master and are willing to kill their former families.

    I'm saying that's pretty much equivalent to death.

    I'm saying "Death to Kings."

    :)

    Good, bad, or ugly--they gotta go.
     
  13. Cliffy McEdgeface

    Cliffy McEdgeface bitch I will cut you

    899
    Jun 28, 2018
    And I'm saying "dude wtf". Democracy has no innate virtue of its own. It is a means to an end, like most forms of politics. If a benevolent, decent, competent dictator takes control and makes shit work for as many people as possible, I'm not interested in ripping that apart just because it isn't democratic and I don't entirely understand why you would.
     
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  14. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I find attempting to assert authority without consent to be worthy of death. It's someone who has a sword over you whether he's going to use it or not. A nonfunctional democracy is still better than a benevolent dictatorship.
     
  15. LuciusCorneliusSulla

    LuciusCorneliusSulla First time out of the vault

    28
    Sep 23, 2018
    I gotta go with the Master because he is a tragic hero and I really like sympathizing with the enemy. FO01_NPC_Master_B.png

    Edit: Also because I personally believe Fallout 1 had the best story in video game history and the Master's voice acting was so damn good I got chills.
     
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  16. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    I don't think there is even a possible argument for the Enclave being better than the Unity.

    The master is one of the best antagonist in the videogame industry while the Enclave is pretty mundane, being a satire of current governments.

    Although, i like that they exist in the Fallout universe. First, they are the opposite of the unity. While the master proposes a new world and to embrace mutation, the Enclave rejects mutation and live in the past. While the Master tries to fix problems of the world, the Enclave do stuff just because they can. They see people as toys to play with, while all the Unity is about the people.

    Also, they play a crucial role in the Fallout universe, as they embody how unforgivably awful the pre-war world was, and that any attempt to create the old world will inevitably lead to more misery. The wasteland might suck at times, but the Enclave reminds us that the alternative is so much worse.

    While you nuke them into oblivion, you make a statement that you prefer the post-apocalyptic as it is in your present, than attempting to recreate the crapsack world of the past. They are the perfect nostalgy killer. And they are tainting forever the image of the NCR and their pathetic attempt to rebuild the USA of the past.

    That being said, i would have prefered if the Fallout 2 climax was a little more than beating the bad guy, but more about what would happen in the world after. Sure, you get all those nice slideshows, in the end, and those are damn good, but i would have also liked to make a decision in the end.

    Fallout Tactics get so much crap for not being an full-blown RPG, and the calculator army is not the most interesting faction of the series, but the climax is so memorable because you have to make a decision for the future of the Wasteland, and that decision isn't so black & white.

    Instead of creating a vague New Arroyo, it would have been nice if, for instance, the tanker suffer damage on the way back, and get stuck on the ocean. In order to survive, you have to call someone from one of the major factions (Vault City, NCR, the Bishops, the Wrights, the Salvatores, the Mordinots, the Hubologists, the shi, Brotherhood Of Steel, Broken Hills new unity, the Slaver guild etc...). Depending on who helps you reach the coast, that faction can get to influence the future of New Arroyo. (if you killed all the factions, expect your people to suffer heavy casualties before the winds bring you back to the coast)

    Yeah, Tactics and New Vegas made me a little more greedy, but i think it would have made Fallout 2 ending more memorable, without changing anything on the oil rig.
     
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  17. SiriusShenanigans

    SiriusShenanigans Those who write on Heaven’s walls...

    96
    Jun 27, 2018
    The enclave being a really good satire that still haunts you when you stop playing is why the enclave is scary, and its role as a nostalgia killer is a big part in the general themes of fallout 2. Its hard to say that the master has anything like that going for him other than "he is sorta trying to help people and you can talk to him". I don't see the master as one of the best villains in history. I'd sooner say that shodan would make a better villain, or mechanists of thief 2, or literally anybody who shows up for more than 1 conversation at the end of the game. The master suffers from a serious lack of stamina in terms of plot. He is cool for the 3 minutes of game time that he shows up in, but he just doesn't have that much to offer. I personally find the enclave to have more food for thought than the master ever did. I like the master, but to me I don't see him as a very complex villain. I'm not the sort to try to make him into something he is not. He is an alright antagonist with a sick as hell looking visual design.

    He just doesn't represent anything and that bothers me. Fallout 2 was largely a story of the world trying to figure out how to move forward, looking to many different times in history to pull information about how to proceed, and in that the enclave makes the scariest claim for why you shouldn't idolize the past, and overall, that sense that the wasteland is favorable to the prewar is what makes Fallout 2 stand out from the countless other postapocalyptic stories. There is also something sinister about the idiocy of the enclave. Its the sort of thing where its resistant to reason, which is so much the opposite of the master, making them a more terrifying foe in my eyes.

    I kinda like the ending the way it is in fallout 2. You dive into a base of highly racist and bigoted ghosts of the past who have incredibly fierce technology. Its a dangerous enough mission you can't take your team, and yet, you do your best to confront the forms of the pasts own stubborness and greed. I like that the chosen one in the end doesn't work for a faction. He can get help from various groups, but in the end, its no one's destiny but your own. The chosen one saves the wasteland. Not the NCR, not the brotherhood of steel, not sanfranscico, not new reno. Its all you.
     
  18. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    There is more about the Master than just an encounter in the end.
    - There is the encounter indeed.
    - The story about Richard Grey's expedition told by Harold at the Hub.
    - The holodisk about his thoughts during his transformation that you find at Mariposa.
    - The case made by Marcus in Fo2.
    - The whole unity in Fo1 and all the characters mentioning it. It is how his followers and opponents see the unity.
    - The whole setting for Fallout 1 and the backstory between the war and the quest for the chip is a compelling case for the unity. The trauma humanity suffered, and how the first people going out of their vault saw the world as a giant mausoleum of humanity biggest tragedy. And even the locations of Fallout era are a testimony of it. *Boneyard* *Necropolis* *Junktown* *Followers of the Apocalypse* It all reeks of death.
    - Several characters keep mentioning the master and the unity after Fallout 1.

    Part of my enjoyement about the Master and the unity is that you did NOT get all those informations at the same time, but by connecting the dots between different sources, and even different playthrough, the whole making even more sense as you uncover more informations here and there.
     
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  19. Squadcar

    Squadcar Literal Potbelly Vampire Goblin

    Jun 1, 2018
    I understand the notion that he's not as present as other villains but it's definitely not something that I think that detracts from his impact as a villain. It might if he just randomly showed up and it was like here's a boss! But that's not exactly what happened as naossano explained.
     
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  20. 5545Trey

    5545Trey Underground Deviant

    625
    Jun 25, 2014
    A Saturday-Morning-cartoonish-evil faction compared to an "evil" faction that is not as morally clear-cut and actually has a plausible agenda for what it was trying to accomplish?

    This isn't even a contest: the Unity wins by a HUGE landslide because of its sympathetic villain, a motive that makes sense, and is overall, gray - that's how I like my Fallout antagonists.

    The Enclave was a massive step down, in terms of gameplay, lore, and writing. They're too one-dimensional, and it's impossible to sympathize with a faction who wanted to release a lethal virus on the entire planet just to "relish" in the "glorious" Pre-War days. I hate how limited Fallout 2 was with dealing with the Enclave, and Frank Horrigan is just a glorified Super Mutant with Power Armor infused into his skin. He's only memorable as an inevitable obstacle, not as a good villain with traits beyond his devotion to the Enclave, so he could never compare to the Master. In fact, not a single "villain" in the series is even remotely close to being as well-written as the Master - no one. Not even Richard, Caesar, General Oliver, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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