Fallout 3 at E3 - Electric Playground

[Vault 69er]

I do not think that China could attack the east coast of the USA in that time. So I am really interested how that is explained....

Remember, this is a 1950s version of 2077. Not 1950. We don't know what the Chinese had, or anyone else for that matter.
What's always been a given since the very first Fallout intro is that the entire world was consumed by nuclear war.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Some of the fans keep claiming that there was no missile technology in the Fallout universe.
I find this rather far fetched as it is clear that they have rockets and satellites, in Van Buren there would even be a space rocket for the player to man and a space station to go to, so what is the problem with intercontinental ballistic missiles.

Heck, they probably even have those atomic bombers the US and Soviet Russia wanted to built in the sixties.

 

[ratsnack]

maybe these "fans" need to read the wiki and the documents

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

maybe these "fans" need to read the wiki and the documents

Problem is, those documents are rather unclear about missile and rocket technology in Fallout, the developers have contradicted themselves in the past from time to time.

 

[ratsnack]

You mean Van Buren BOMB document might be dismissed? I hope not. I really like that part.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

You mean Van Buren BOMB document might be dismissed? I hope not. I really like that part.

Indeed, I love them too and I treat them as much as possible as canon.

 

[Vault 69er]

I too love the whole concept of the B.O.M.B. and consider it canon.
Besides, the intro to Fallout 2 describes "spears of nuclear fire". While poetic, it does allude more to missiles than it would to bombs.
Terminology like "the bombs dropped" in places like Maxson's report don't really contradict that idea, since even nuclear missiles are often thought of as "The Bomb".

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I find this rather far fetched as it is clear that they have rockets and satellites, in Van Buren there would even be a space rocket for the player to man and a space station to go to, so what is the problem with intercontinental ballistic missiles.

Rocket ships doesn't have to mean missiles, looking at it from the viewpoint of the 50's pulp sci-fi writer rocket ships were an old sci-fi idea but missile development probably a closely guarded secret (I'm not sure when they went public) in the 50's. Super bombers like the B36, on the other hand were known and even appeared in a couple of Hollywood movies. It would be more likely that the writer would envision the continued development of the bomber rather than the introduction of the missile, even if space ships were produced.

Looking at it in universe, IIRC the ICBM came about because the USSR didn't have client countries that could host the short ranged weapons available at the time. Fallout's universe had different politics as well as different technology, What if the States hadn't of been able to convince the Europeans to host it's early missiles? Would the ICBM still have been developed, or would they continue the development race of the long ranged bomber?

Besides, the intro to Fallout 2 describes "spears of nuclear fire". While poetic, it does allude more to missiles than it would to bombs.

Fallout 2 introduced a lot of inconsistancies to the setting.

 

[Per]

I too love the whole concept of the B.O.M.B. and consider it canon.

Much as we might want it to be, nothing from Van Buren is canon merely on the strength of being in the design docs.

Terminology like "the bombs dropped" in places like Maxson's report don't really contradict that idea, since even nuclear missiles are often thought of as "The Bomb".

Example of use: "Nuclear missiles are the bomb!"

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Much as we might want it to be, nothing from Van Buren is canon merely on the strength of being in the design docs.

Okay, fair enough. I like to consider it canon as I like the idea of the US having orbital missile platforms before the War.
Plus Van Buren explained more about the New Plague and its origins, as well as computers such as ODYSSEUS.

 

[Kyuu]

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that, while Fallout's setting is based on 50's sci-fi pulp and vacuum-tube computers, the nuclear war didn't happen until... *checks Fallout timeline* October 23, 2077. Regardless of the setting, it seems likely that, having developed powered infantry armor, plasma weaponry, vertibirds, GECKs, and everthing else, the US and probably even China and other countries had delivery systems capable of hitting probably any target on Earth, whether by ICBM, extremely long-range bombers, or whatever.

 

[ratsnack]

I vote to cannonize!

 

[Justicar Empiricus]

I kinda like the fleets of long-ranged nuclear bombers, with some ICBMs tossed in for variety. Just seems more original. Not that my opinion really matters, but that's just what I think.

I view the Van Buren documents as semi-canon. As long as they don't conflict with the original games (Fallout 1&2), I'm fine with them.

 

[Vault 69er]

I find this rather far fetched as it is clear that they have rockets and satellites, in Van Buren there would even be a space rocket for the player to man and a space station to go to, so what is the problem with intercontinental ballistic missiles.

Rocket ships doesn't have to mean missiles, looking at it from the viewpoint of the 50's pulp sci-fi writer rocket ships were an old sci-fi idea but missile development probably a closely guarded secret (I'm not sure when they went public) in the 50's. Super bombers like the B36, on the other hand were known and even appeared in a couple of Hollywood movies. It would be more likely that the writer would envision the continued development of the bomber rather than the introduction of the missile, even if space ships were produced.

Well things in Fallout tend to have a tinge of modern ideas in them, to show that this is a world developed from 1950s ideas but not completely bound to them.
Look at FEV for instance. While being transmitted through vats of green goo to make horrible mutants is very 50s, the backstory of it being a genetically engineered virus that alters cells isn't.

Looking at it in universe, IIRC the ICBM came about because the USSR didn't have client countries that could host the short ranged weapons available at the time. Fallout's universe had different politics as well as different technology, What if the States hadn't of been able to convince the Europeans to host it's early missiles? Would the ICBM still have been developed, or would they continue the development race of the long ranged bomber?

The Soviets don't seem to be very significant in Fallout. The only time they're mentioned is in Natalia's bio. Missiles could have come about due to China's need to target the US. And since it seems that WW2 still happened, that means the US gained access to the German V1 and V2 technology which if China got wind of could start an arms race.

I prefer the idea of a smaller amount of ICBMs and orbital missiles backing up a main force of nuclear powered super bombers though. Because it's just cooler.

Fallout 2 introduced a lot of inconsistancies to the setting.

True, but I don't believe this was one of them.

 

[Nyarlatothep]

The BoS named themselves AFTER the bombs dropped.
An entirely unrelated group calling themselves the exact same name and using the exact same insignia would be really dumb and in the end just another excuse for shoehorning in the BoS.

Yeah theres no way two seperate squads decided to call themselves that. You use the example of Enclave, a faction with a different name, to support your arguement? Doesn't work. The brotherhood in DC is the same group, keeping in contact over radio or cable, who knows what their mission is.

My idea of BoS is pretty much based on what I remember from FOT. Would like to know how they are painted in FO1 and FO2.

OK, you win, I loose... Just give me a little hope that this game could possibly become good at last. I so search for this hope right now!

 

[Sorrow]

How about rockets that drop atomic bombs ?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I prefer the idea of a smaller amount of ICBMs and orbital missiles backing up a main force of nuclear powered super bombers though. Because it's just cooler.

The reduced Soviet threat just strenghtens the argument against the development of ICBMs. But orbital missile launchers are a world away from ICBMs so really the exclusion of one doesn't preclude the inclusion of the other.

 

[Ausir]

Actually, Fallout and Fallout 2 have even more direct references to "missiles" and "warheads" than the "spears of nuclear fire". Some examples:

From CHUCK.MSG (FO1):

{124}{}{[Chuck pulls out a card with a picture of a man dancing on a nuclear warhead.] The Fool. I cannot help you; you must make your own way in the world.}

From GLO1WEAP.MSG (FO1):

{100}{}{These doors have been blasted by the nuclear warhead.}

From OBJ_DUDE.MSG (FO1):

{22706}{}{There are some stories which say there is a place to the southeast of here which got hit by a nuclear warhead.}

From Fcdrfung.msg (FO2):

{182}{}{Our people landed here on the submarine Shih-huang-ti, when the missiles exploded over the world. With the aid of a cult, we, the Shi, rebuilt San Francisco. That is the short version.}

(...)

{186}{}{The long version is this: We are here because our people are the descendants of the crew of a nuclear submarine, called the Shih-huang-ti. When the missiles fell in the Great Deluge, the systems aboard the submarine failed and we drifted in the dark for many days.}

 

[Atomic Cowboy]

If you don't mind me revisiting the Brotherhood of Steel debate...

I think some of you are missing the point.

Back when I was in High School, I read Star Trek: The Nitpickers Guide (yes, I was a huge geek). It was a listing of all the continuity and technical errors that appeared, episode by episode, in ST:TNG. In between each season block, there'd be a 'fun' mini chapter. In one of them the author 'explained' how the errors he'd listed weren't, in fact, errors, but intentional parts of the show. He cited several examples, and came up with elaborate explanations justifying why you could see a boom-mike during the scene, or why the doors opened awkwardly, etc. It was a humourous example of not using Occam's Razor.

Now when it comes to justifying the BOS's presence on the East Coast, any number of elaborate explanations can be crafted. In a fictional universe, anything is possible. If we were stuck in that universe, the BOS presence would be a mystery begging a solution. But we're not in that universe - we can step outside the box; the BOS presence, then, is purely a mistake.

There is no need for them to be there. If you want to put in a bunch of guys with Power Armour, fine, they could even have a similar history to the Brotherhood, and that would be less of a problem. Same thing goes for the Super Mutants - I mean really, there were only a few hundred - a thousand at most - created by the Master. To try and posit that 70 years later, they're all still alive, and still waging war is ridiculous. If they were that bellicose, then they'd be dead.

Neither of these groups belong in Fallout 3.

No amount of in-game speculation and justification covers up the lack of creativity inherent in reusing characters and organizations that don't belong. In F2 the cameo appearances of F1 characters added depth to the wasteland - it was reasonable to expect to see a few of them. In F3 it's just lazy cheese.

And I'd like to finish with one last thought on 'The Wasteland Police' - what the hell were they thinking? The world is in a state of anarchy; there's no regional government collecting the taxes to maintain a police force, and the different cities (presumably) have differing ideologies on what 'living the good life' is. So where do these Police get their funding, and why are they doing it? There'd better be some damned good explanations behind this. I can think of a few, but they're subtle, and given the heavy-handed nature of everything Bethesda's displayed so far, I expect the BOS to be nothing more than a cartoonish version of Arthur's nights, with lazsr guns. Wandering around, righting rights, defending the peasants, with - of course - an infinitely respawning well of cheeser Paladins who don't mind dying.

Thanks for listening.
[/rant]

 

[Morbus]

Thanks for listening.

No problem. Good read.