Fallout 76 announced!

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by Hassknecht, May 30, 2018.

  1. TerminallyChill

    TerminallyChill Be excellent to each other.

    Feb 16, 2018
    Everything I've stated strictly applies to Fallout 3 here. It was a different time for the company. I would agree with you about the shape of Bethesda today.

    Personally, I would call that stupidity but I guess that's up to interpretation.
  2. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    I wouldn't say New Vegas was necessarily a product of the merging between Fallout's and TES's gameplay. What Bethesda did with Fallout 3 was a transitory conversion of Fallout's gameplay features into TES's template; and as we can see, the conversion is finally completed by Fallout 4. Or perhaps, the keyword here isn't gameplay mechanics, but rather Bethesda's own core design philosophy, because honestly, I've only played Skyrim so I'm not exactly addressed on the topic of TES's gameplay mechanics in terms of the entire series. What I know from what I've heard is that TES's gameplay mechanics was significantly streamlined from ever since the transition from Daggerfall to Morrowind, and eventually it became outright dumbing down to Oblivion and finally Skyrim. They removed gameplay features that initially existed in predecessors, and released a far more watered down version in the successors, to the point where a mechanic is missing completely (see: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Levitate. Yes, it seemed like they have an in-game lore explanation as to why Levitation is missing in Oblivion and Skyrim, and even though I'm not exactly addressed in the entire series, it seemed like a forced, tacked-on explanation to the removal of a feature.)
    Meanwhile, New Vegas was a product of an attempt to re-convert the result that is Fallout 3's designs into the original designs of Fallout 1 and 2, or at least what can actually be brought back to fit the currently intended template (like Traits, DT, etc etc). Especially since Obsidian had never actually make anything that's similar to what Bethesda's been making, or anything close to it as far as I know, so I don't see how Obsidian were trying exactly merging Fallout's and TES's gameplay.

    I think the alternative to the arguments that Bethesda was trying to appeal to 'essentially everyone' is that, having gathered some thoughts from reading the discussion between the guys and devs at the Codex regarding Tim Cain's decision to create a new interface for character creation in RPGs (of which the reason number 1 is that Fallout's and Arcanum's character creation were 'too complex'), they were instead trying to ease a wider audience's impression of this new IP they've made. However, it's obvious that you absolutely can't please everyone; even among the fans of a genre, two different people in it can have two different ways on enjoying a game in that genre, and why. This applies especially much more when it comes to RPGs, and then they're now trying to attract, for example, fans of shooters, obviously there are things that needed to be changed to accommodate gameplay mechanics that is familiar for fans of shooters. Especially since they have to take into consideration that there are fans of shooters that are almost always never really know a kind of RPGs like Fallout 1 and 2, then the changes can include, but not limited to, removing a mechanic or feature completely, and/or replace the mechanic with something that can be taken as similar/alternative. No matter how they try, they can't please everyone. It's why you might heard that some people dismissed Fallout 3 as 'Oblivion with Guns', and in turn, Fallout 4 'Skyrim with Guns'.
    Also, if we are to agree that the devs of the games that we are discussing ARE actually, and sincerely, trying to blanket-pleasing everyone, including hardcore and casual fans, then the devs that ACTUALLY do that are Obsidian with New Vegas. With Fallout 3, the intention were there; but it wasn't sincere because, like you said, Todd Howard and the rest of the team are painfully out of touch with the classic Fallout community.

    Eh, interpreting the intention behind the design as stupidity is also a conspiracy, as much as saying it's malice. While Gizmojunk's arguments might came out as that, I think his points basically amount to Bethesda were trying to attract newcomers, and obviously their already existing fanbase, into Fallout series, and not to actively trying to piss off the fanbase of the originals. However, since they are a completely different developers compared to Interplay/Black Isle, and their experience was always with making games like TES series, obviously their core design philosophy wouldn't be too far from that of a TES game when they were making a Fallout game, and it shows. In fact, they ARE actually playing it safe by opting to try making a Fallout game using that piece of shit of an engine, instead of using the engine that was used to make Fallout 1 and 2. I wouldn't dispute the fact that they still tried to attract the hardcore fans with Fallout 3, but I wouldn't attribute the method they were using as either stupidity or malice; it was pure business decision.
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  3. TerminallyChill

    TerminallyChill Be excellent to each other.

    Feb 16, 2018
    Yeah, you're right. At the end of the day, we're only just outsiders looking in. I have never talked to Todd Howard myself and because of that I can't definitively say for sure why the decisions made on Fallout 3 played out the way they did. All I know is that they didn't please a lot of the existing Fallout community upon the game's release.
  4. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    It's unfortunate that people like Todd Howard are practically unreachable by his very audience. Here, and in the Codex, we interviewed developers left and right, we have people like MattChat on Youtube directly interviewing RPG developers like Tim Cain, Chris Avellone, Josh Sawyer, etc etc and he stands from a perspective of an actual fan instead of like how gaming journalist sites 'interview'/'documented' AAA developers behind the scene (of which much more often asking trivial questions that ended up concluding that the game would be the next GOTY).
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  5. He's also the face of a way bigger baggage, alas. Plus there's that noclip documentary coming, we'll have Godd Howard in spades.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  6. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Nov 26, 2007
    I think this has been the shape of Bethesda for some time now. Their game designs follow a pattern of simplification... and it's only going to get worse as time progresses.

    They shave away the mechanics that matter—because they don't matter to most of their market
    (who only want a costume for themselves to run amok in); they don't want a character with limitations, or negative repercussions to their actions).... They want a theme-park ride; where they are the best and most important person in it.
    (...or at least that seems to be Bethesda's impression of them.)

    Imagine a park attraction that lets the customer be the captain of the USS Enterprise, and command its crew from the bridge during a crisis. (The starship or the aircraft carrier ;))
    Would the average customer to this attraction be pleased and excited when they left it, if their actions had doomed the ship, and lost all hands, and their allies due to inept orders from the captain? Would they tell their friends it was a wonderful experience that they should also try? I doubt it. It behooves the persons selling the experience to make it a contrived event that the customer will always win, and can never leave in disgrace. A servile simulation that flatters the customer to no end—lest they get annoyed, and stop playing.

    RPGs —real RPGs— put the player in situations that are subject to the character's failings (as well as their expertise). Here the player cannot get the prize if the character is not up to the task.

    At least some Fallout PCs died leaving the Cathedral because they weren't skilled enough to pick open the locked door at the top of the basement stairs, on the way out, (which can happen depending upon how you got down to the vault); —died when the bomb detonated. Death by RNG. There is nothing wrong with this IMO; that's simply what happened to them. It would have been less likely had their PC been better skilled with locks, and it's quite plausible that a novice couldn't manage it under stress. Woe is them that jammed the lock.

    This wouldn't happen in a Bethesda game (so far as I know). They treat the experience as a digital cosplay, rather than supporting a PC identity with strengths and (most importantly) weaknesses. In time they will find a way to discard the concept of a character entirely; leaving only an avatar, and later on... only a perspective view.
    (Did they not already discard character skills?)
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
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  7. TerminallyChill

    TerminallyChill Be excellent to each other.

    Feb 16, 2018
    @Gizmojunk You really don't have to lecture me on consequences in RPG design. In fact, there are more bad endings in my game than 'good' ones. By a large margin. Again, I'm only talking about Fallout 3 here, no comparisons to any other games with the exception of Fallout 2, which it is a sequel to.

    In Fallout 3, there is a robot that treats you like a 'special' child if your intelligence is too low. There is also a family of cannibals that you can befriend given you have the correct perks. These types of interactions would be right at home in Fallout 2, the problem is there aren't nearly enough of them and they aren't very meaningful. Fallout 3 tries to be faithful. It really does. It just fucking sucks at it. Why that is I can't say for sure, and unless you have insider info from Bethesda circa 2006, you aren't going to convince me you know any better. Sorry Gizmo.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  8. Sn1p3r187

    Sn1p3r187 Carolinian Shaolin Monk

    Apr 7, 2014
    Well I thought about this at work. I read on the wiki a while back that Vault 76 is located within the DC area. I thought of a good idea that some of Fallout 76 could be a general prequel to Fallout 3. It could actually add more depth to Fallout 3's story, the history of the Capital Wasteland, the various factions around circa 2102 that were fighting to control DC, the origin of the Super mutant problem, tribalism, and town histories and why settlements around 200 years after the great war never thrived. Of course it sounds a little dumb. But in some ways it could serve as a reconnect to Fallout 3's story that Fallout 4 failed to do.
  9. Practicat

    Practicat Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Aug 25, 2014
    It's probably going to be what @The Dutch Ghost expects.

    • [Like] [Like] x 6
  10. Grognard87

    Grognard87 First time out of the vault

    Jun 4, 2018
    From information leaked I'm not very thrilled about the new Fallout. Nothing is confirmed, however, these leaks come from a reliable source who had never been wrong in information leaked:

    Also I don't like the idea of asking for Preorders so soon. Last time I saw pre-orders this soon it was games like Batman: Arkham City, Battlefront 2, Destiny 2 and many others.
  11. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    We are in the middle of 2018, and there are STILL comments saying stupid shit like, "Just be happy you are getting anything at all!!!11!!!1!!!1!1!!"
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  12. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Yer fond of me Lobster!

    Oct 26, 2016
    Just be happy you're getting anything at all @Black Angel !!!11!!!1!!!1!1!!
    • [Like] [Like] x 6
  13. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    And another speculation video.


    Well Black Angel, as Disney has proven with Star Wars; better bad Star Wars than no Star Wars right?

    I want this franchise to die so that I can drink Bethesda fans salty tears.
    • [Like] [Like] x 8
  14. SquidWard

    SquidWard Pirate and Bankrobber oTO Orderite

    Jun 1, 2018
    Well this game will take place in 2102 (or even in part in 2097), so at least it's not like it's post Fallout 2 and 3? I dunno, seems like it would be more sensible than having more Enclave post 2280s besides those few remnants we met in New Vegas. Like he said it could be people who would have been Enclave but they really weren't because they never made it to the Oil Rig.
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  15. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    The point is not that at this time in Fallout history the Enclave is around and pretty strong because of their technology and resources

    The point is that Fallout doesn't require that the Enclave appears in every game, they are not a key essential element without the universe can not function. (The same goes for Super Mutants and FEV)

    We learned about them in Fallout 2 and stopped them, we met sympathetic remnants in Fallout New Vegas that got the band together for one more show.
    Some of their technology and secrets are still around. But that is it, they're done, it is time to move on and introduce new factions (imagine if the Institute had been done right, they could have been memorable instead of Enclave 2.0. meets Big MT) and new antagonists.

    There is a shitload of room to introduce new people and organizations with their own philosophies, plans and goals.
    Van Buren/FNV gave us the Caesar's Legion. Okay they were a little underdeveloped but here was a credible new faction that sought to reshape the world in their image.

    Fallout Tactics gave us the Calculator and its pacification robots. Perhaps a Terminator/Skynet rip off but it was something new.

    We don't need more super secret government groups/cabal members from before the war or their descendants.
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  16. SquidWard

    SquidWard Pirate and Bankrobber oTO Orderite

    Jun 1, 2018
    IIRC, Obsidian overextended their time frame and really wanted to do a lot more with Caesar's Legion and you can even see parts of that in the dialogue with Caesar when he talks about how they bring security and prosperity to the lands under their control. Which was also supposed to be seen in game but development time didn't allow it.

    And yeah, I agree with you about the Enclave. I get it and I agree. They aren't essential to every game just like Supermutants and FEV and even the Brotherhood of Steel or any other faction. The factions don't have to be nationwide and I don't think any of them solely define Fallout. But I am saying, at least it wouldn't be like the Enclave having the power they did in 2 in a Fallout set in 2290 or something.
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  17. ShazamsLaw

    ShazamsLaw First time out of the vault

    Jun 6, 2018
    This video feels extremely patronizing. Even their single player games are patronizing. You know why I buy their games? So I can mod the hell out of them, into an actual game. My Fallout 4 now has Skills AND perks. A huge variety of weapons. Like, what happened to Chinese assault rifles? or better yet, What happened to all the weapons that were scattered across the Sierra Wasteland? Fallout 4 sure seemed to have no idea. Just POOF gone. heres this ugly beast called "Assault Rifle". At this point, the only saving graces of their games(Which, there are two), is that I don't have to deal with other people, and I can mod them. Nows theres this "Mostly Single Player". What? No, really, WHAT?! TF outta here with that BS. If they want to Make a damn Borderlands:Fallout edition, then may the odds be ever in their favor. The out pouring of the nerd rage at this says everything. Keep it single player. Give it a better story. Give us better, and more options for interaction in the game world. Quit shoehorning us into what effectively is a Mass Effect game, with good guy/bad guy only endings. I mean, are they still holding a grudge against obsidian and wanting to punish the fanbase for liking new vegas so much? Or is Todd Howard a vengeful offspring of a Black Isle studios employee who was terminated under wrongful conditions?

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  18. TerminallyChill

    TerminallyChill Be excellent to each other.

    Feb 16, 2018
    Unfortunately, taking advantage of that narrative space requires something Bethesda's writers don't possess. Creativity. Besides, they're trapped between a rock and a hard place at this point. Piss fans off by rehashing the same tired old factions? Or piss fans off by introducing garbage new ones? It's a no-win scenario when you have this picky of an audience. Given the options, it's almost guaranteed they will elect to take the safe route on this game's story. Bringing the Enclave back to Fallout is simply just the path of least resistance. Easy to write, minimal community backlash.

    Contrary to popular belief, personal vendettas just don't translate into a corporate 'creativity by committee' environment. Like, at all. It's strictly about the dough in AAA development. Zenimax saw green after discovering that Fortnite and PUBG were essentially printing money for their studios, and decided to put its boys to work building a brand new gravy train of its own. Seems like Blizzardvision had the same idea since this year's Call of Duty is going battle royale as well. I'm curious to see how this trend is going to shake out in the long run. Definitely don't misread this move as anything but a quick cash-in, though.
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  19. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Yeah, I think at this point Bethesda doesn't really have any beef with other developers, although there is the fact of them maliciously treating smaller developers (@Risewild would know more about it, iirc).
    Instead, since post-Morrowind, Bethesda were more keen of abandoning their hardcore fanbase for favor of wider audience, as evidenced by subsequently watering down RPG elements across the games they've made.
    Making an online-oriented, battle royale, PUBG/Fortnite-esque game is yet another step in trying to milk out cash from an even wider audience. Not to mention it is much easier to incorporate Creation Club into this business model. In turn, they leave their hardcore-singleplayer RPGs-fanbase in the dirt, especially after that #SavePlayer1 schmuck-fest they've made as pointed out by the post above. Obviously, their most staunch defenders and people who really didn't care would still be 'okay' with it, but still...
  20. It wasn't as much as malicious intent as putting them against the wall for adquidition, in some cases more clearly than others. And if course needles to say it's not *really* Bethesda Softworks but Zenimax tampering that.

    Wait... You're saying it's actually a battle Royale? You know the main source on that are literally just memes, right? :rofl: