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Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by WorstUsernameEver, Sep 24, 2011.
The GTA4 DLCs really had been good. This and the FNV DLCs are the only ones I've ever bought so far.
Same here. Well, and the F3 DLC when they were 8 bucks for all of 'em, which seems decent value, though I haven't played them yet. Not sure if I'll ever replay F3 again now that we have New Vegas, which appears to have way more interesting small, often unlisted side-quests activity and people to discover. I never found the kid under the 188 bridge until last playthrough, for example.
@BrotherNone: Fallout's economy's average consumer? No. Rich individuals who are above the average in this economy? I guess so.
Fallout economy should be similar to third world, better in communities like NCR. And, like it has always been, there is both extreme poverty and extreme wealth, the latter being Vegas' target. I consider that 2000 caps is, for wealthier NCR citizens, ~few months of savings, maybe more, so they might as well dump all their caps va banque, as the potential winnings may be worth it. As most of the Travelers leave the Strip broke, a few travelers provide enough to support the Strip. Even with majority spent on basic needs from local area, it still generates a considerable income.
About Rivet City: Well, in its principles it's believable, but F3's setting delivers the killing blow. What do they eat? Why do they need a GECK to clean a damn lake? How does anything even exists with so much anarchy around? The whole Fallout 3's setting is so unbelievable that almost anything there suffers.
Anyway, I'm not an expert in economy, so there's a huge chance I may be wrong, I admit it. But with a few logical holes filled (such as where do they get their food, their contacts with Outer Vegas), it's entirely possible the Strip is possible in it's existence. Too bad that developers left those holes, and the logical explanation suffers.
That's why casinos exist. That's why entertainment exists in the first place. An actual city that does nothing else? It took the US quite a while to get to that level, Fallout's setting isn't anywhere close to it. Is it possible NCR could support such a town, smaller and in a good location? Sure. Supporting such a location on the frontline of a bloody war? Hahah, stupid.
What does anyone eat? Nothing in Fallout 3 made much sense, but Rivet City isn't particularly noteworthy. Extract it from Fallout 3 and plunk it down as a location close to SF and it makes perfect sense.
It's possible, but as you say, it shouldn't be necessary for us to fill in holes, and again the frustrating part of it is that it's so easy to make New Vegas a much more plausible, believable location, just by not focusing too much on casinos. Obsidian, like Bethesda, seems to be depending on us just not thinking about it too much, and that's annoying.
House's whole plan is pretty damn stupid too. A place like Vegas can not be an economic motor because it doesn't provide any productive services. That's economics 101, you'd think someone like him would get it, but he (and Obsidian) just seem obsessed with the whole "casinos!" angle.
That's what I've meant when I brought Lonesome Road a few posts ago, sorry if I was incoherent.
Anyway, the "holes" aren't that big, but yeah, it's sad that we have to fill them ourselves in order for the setting to fully make sense. It's just that I really like New Vegas, so I'm a bit biased Maybe even my favorite Fallout because of some mods, even though Fallout 1 is the best part.
New Vegas is quite probably the best Fallout game since 2 (and with a better setting/story than 2), but given that the Fallout franchise is what it is, that's just not saying much.
Yeah I know. I am somewhat odd when it comes to DLCs. Simply because I just don't like them somehow. I prefer something in my hands which I can install from a DVD/CD (most of the time). Steam is pretty much the limit of what I can take when it comes with digital games.
I just hate the whole crap around DLCs as where people say "look I played it, was awesome, and I finished it in 5 ours". I am not even talking about the prize here. I am just saying I would love to see the time and work put together for 3 DLCs moved to one huge addon. But that will never happen because they will do more money with 3 small DLCs instead of one huge big one.
If you don't like the digital concept, then buy them as bargain bin GotY editions. Hell, often buying a GotY is much cheaper than buying DLC separately, even if you already own the base game. And Episodes From Liberty City was released on disc, like an old-fashioned expasnsion.
New Vegas' DLC makes perfect use of the "episodic" approach by giving each DLC a very fresh approach to both gameplay and setting. In that sense, it does MORE than a single expansion could, not less.
In Fallout 3, the DLC's mostly seemed like random stuff they threw in just to have more stuff to sell, except for Broken Steel which added to the BoS quest line. Although, a couple of them were a lot of fun. The other four could be dropped into New Vegas with a couple of tweaks and you wouldn't know they were made for FO3.
I haven't bought them yet, but the NV DLC's sound like they branch off the NV and Courier's stories. This would tie them in with the main game a little better. I would still prefer to wait for a great Steam sale or some sort of GotY edition. I'm hoping for the latter by Christmas.
The glitter, the casinos, what more the name of Las Vegas, itself, are all simply hooks to get players interested. But to the broader context of the region it's not what Vegas produces but what it's set on and near to which appeals to the NCR. It's situated near to Hoover dam. The dam, the fresh water, what more the electricity both it and HELIOS ONE might provide to the growing Republic- they're all worth fighting for, or so the narrative says. Vegas is a strip town in the long tradition of such found to the American southwest and to the old silk road stretching through Europe and Asia. It's an oasis in one of the most inhospitable places in the world -one which House kept apart from some of the worst destruction the apocalypse brought. With the right nudge it could come to so much more. And with that, at least to the short viewing, what isn't to love for the NCR?
Vegas offers more than gambling. It's a convenient release valve for the NCR, a port of call -so to say- for its soldiers with amenities beyond prostitution and alcohol- running water, sanitation, policing, and walls to keep out the riffraff; most of the infrastructure of a more or less intact old world city. What more, McCarran offered NCR a prime outpost from which its military was/is able to harass and patrol and -should it come to such- retreat from the Legion.
It scarcely needs saying, but where word of something of value to be exploited arises -gold, slaves, old world tech, or an army on garrison- so come camp followers, merchants, pioneers, settlers and other fortune seekers, and all of them easily willing to risk whatever dangers such a frontier presents. So London, Paris, Bonn, and other great cities rose up around Roman outposts. House knows/knew all of this.
And as was said- the prohibitive cost of two thousand caps was intended. Vegas is a pyramid as any other civilisation. House wants only a select few within the actual strip- which is why NCR soldiers with proper leave papers come in free. So it was for any of those ancient posts and oases, satellite economies sprang up without them. The rich found ways to keep within the walls at night(or have their own walls built) while the poor set up tents without and waited for the walls to come opened during the day. Those who couldn't get in by day set up stalls and bazaars where they squatted and sell to those passing within or to their neighbours. The same holds for those who come to Vegas. Indeed, it promises dangers, but also great opportunities and freedoms by comparison to the old world problems of overcrowding, and the economic and political entrenchments found to the west. Many of the immigrants to those posts often did starve, fall to exposure, and succumb to violence to one form or another. Even so, it was worth the risk(the gamble one might say) for them to try and perhaps win out.
As to House cooperating with caravan security- it's fairly obvious he was an autocrat, an egotist, and should the fail-safes inherent to Yesman come any indication, a paranoiac with an extremely long and cynical viewing of the world. And that was before the bombs fell. Was he or his vision infallible? No, which is where the courier comes in. House never wanted to share power -ever- but cooperated only with the NCR and only out of necessity. They had an army from the time before the first battle of Hoover dam, at least, with more than enough might to have him crushed. He knew from traders and the NCR itself that Vegas stood to become the new 'Hub' along the trade roads to Arizona in the east and to New Canaan and other parts north. He needed do nothing, make nothing, but only set there and allow the things mentioned -the other trappings of civilisation- to come to him and fall into place around Vegas- just as the old world's version had.
So he made his bargain. Simpler to let NCR in, get them addicted and dependent on the strip -have their mouthpieces kept to a comfortable distance and with the illusion of his cooperation with the notion ever in mind for having them removed once he's found whatever edge he's after. For the others, he simply never cared. Let them come, let them enter and pay if they're able, but nothing more. House is driven. He knows he's running out of time. To his view, and as amply proven from dealings with the NCR, cooperation brings naught but bureaucracy and politics. Why should he wish to slow his progress with such when he's the only one with the 'proper vision of what must be done?'
I don't see it. Most of these views are expressed to one form or another from texts, from many of the NPCs you come across in New Vegas, and with little reading between the lines or hole-filling required.
Thats your view and I respect it.
Of course reading about it in reviews isn't the same like playing it. But 5 ours ... it seems most of the DLCs don't take much more then that to beat them. And thats simply to short for my taste. As said. I prefer a single 20 hours DLC then 4x5 hours.
Each to his own I guess.
@ Iozeph, because I am not cluttering this thread by quoting the epic post; yes, this is all true. But it also doesn't invalidate what BN said; House's plan to oust NCR is stupid, mainly because, as you pointed out, they maintain most of the infrastructure allowing the city to work on the first place. Trade routes? them. Army? them (OK, Securitrons can replace them on this). Water? them. Food? them. Clients for the Casinos? them. New Vegas is a parasite for NCR, it feeds on it. If NCR leaves, New Vegas is suddendly left with little but reformed tribals and squatters for a population. Almost no qualified workforce, engineers, doctors, ect. because all of them come from NCR or the Followers, and either will leave with the armyor be overwhelmed by needs House doesn't care to provide, and he has no facilities to train anyone in anything more than running friggin casinos. No realiable source of revenue, since it has almost no productive industry. Not to mention it just majorly pissed off it's two potential trade partners (admittedly, House does cover it somewhat by wanting to keep NCR's leaders alive so they act as scapegoats, but NCR isn't going to just forget he raised a robot army and kicked them out of the Mojave).
Also, cooperation does no good to House because he doesn't allow it. He put a restrictive treaty on NCR at the very moment when the Republic was about to fight a vast army. He brought any hostility on himself. He could have negotiated harder for an alliance that could have made it easier to drive the Legion out, in exchange for guarantees for New Vegas. Instead, he outright says ''OK guys, just act as meatshields until I can put my grand plan to execution!!''. Then he complains NCR is not coping up with his antics. If he is unwilling to bargain with others when he is not in a position of power, he deserves to be put out of play.[/quote]
Other than water and electricity you mean? And I think he mentions that with the money coming from Hoover Dam he'll rebuild industries in NV.
You mean the water and electricity ran and maintained by NCR engineers? Where will he find sufficient staff to do the same (because his robots are solely build for wars, and his other underlings are creepy masked freaks, mafiosi and Frank Sinatra wannabees)? And who will he sell electricity to, the Legion? He needs lots of it himself to power his city and his robots. Quarry Junction is about the only place that seems to produce anything in the region, and I don't see him building spaceships with stones.
To be fair, House believes that once the Legion becomes a non-issue, that the NCR will simply make up an excuse to kick House out of power, and tax him and the people of New Vegas to death to pay for their expenses incurred during the War. With the NCR's proclivity for not keeping up their own end of their bargains (see what happens when the Great Khans ally with the NCR), House is more than justified in believing he can't actually trust them.
He knew his plan was flimsy from the start because of his own circumstances, but he had the advantage in that the NCR didn't want a two-front war over Hoover Dam. The treaty is essentially there to placate the NCR and give House time to put his real plan into motion (scouring the world for the Platinum Chip, to start). His plan is one to encourage trade with the NCR without giving up control for his idea of New Vegas. With him in control of Hoover Dam, he will still trade with the NCR - the NCR having no real other option, and the people of the NCR will be blaming Kimball and Oliver for the fiasco rather than House, and House will have economic and political control of the region.
Trade under duress, but trade nonetheless. What can the NCR do? Start a new war? We've already been given an explanation as to why the NCR isn't willing to commit to yet another "bloody foreign war." They could, but it would be costly yet again.
As for needing skilled engineers and workers, House has caps - someone with the necessary skills will step up for the right amount of money. The hard work of actually things back up and running is already done.
His plan for getting people back into space are lofty, yes, but for the short-term, he's in a good position.
But who will he trade with? What will he trade? Even if Kimball and co. act as scapegoats, it's not like NCR will soon forget the man who caused them to spend fortunes and thousands of lives for nothing. It's even worse than the Brotherhood ruining their economy by bombing their gold, and there's still much resentment over that.
House is just a powerful guy in the way. Putting him out of the picture is business. The Khans have been enemies of the Republic for about 150 years. Not the same thing. Notice they are basically the only faction that supports them that get backstabbed. The Followers, Boomers, Kings and even the Brotherhood get a very fair treatment, all things considered. And you can't really complain about alienating people when you consider them all ''ingrates'', arbitrarily choose to rule with a robot army, and go out of your way to hinder said people as they are facing an army of murderous slavers.
Yeah, I do recognize House is not in a spot where he can be generous or trusting. But his blind egoism (which seems to drive most of his character, at least to me) and reliance on extremely unpredictable wild cards (The Platinum Chip and the Courier, to name only them) are his undoing. Well, that, and the whole dictatorship part, as far as most of my characters and myself are concerned.
The trade remains with the NCR. In the best possible outcome, House takes over without being the cause of NCR death, at its worst, House and New Vegas will be hated for awhile, but House is still offering a hand of friendship in trade rather than trying to cut them off from what it is that you want.
Power, water, luxury, whatever New Vegas can deliver.
No, you're not supposed to forget that House just pulled wool over their eyes, but that also means that you know that House is in the right position where you can make a trade without further bloodshed.
Unlike Caesar, House doesn't want all the power from the Dam, nor does he need it. He's going to sell the extra power and all that water that the NCR worked to provide back to them to facilitate the economy he's going to build with their caps.
And the NCR, as expansionistic and imperialistic as they've become, will pay rather than extend themselves further.
House is an egotistic autocrat, NCR is a corrupted republic... neither is a genuinely benevolent leadership. The best you can do is either take over yourself or work it out so that everyone involved benefits.
As I'd said beyond his genius there is madness- and from visiting H&H it's easily understood that House was unhinged before the war. Having said that, he never needed any of that infrastructure to live, himself; none that he hadn't kept running until NCR's came about. Vegas sets over that trade route and house has the ability to take that away from them when he wishes- and yes, he knows that should they not play his game he'll turn about and play spoiler. NCR is strong but bleeding with or without House and it was stated from the start they'd overextended themselves.
Traderoutes aren't at the mercy of the NCR - they scarcely able to keep what little they have opened even so. And were they having such a grand time of it they'd never have hired out for the courier to scout the roads north toward Primm and east through and beyond Nipton. The whole situation is precariously balanced with it more or less understood that NCR is losing. They're demoralised and have all but given up the will to fight- hoping that Caesar never takes it upon himself to come at them. Forlorn hope, Searchlight, Cottonwood Cove, various ranger stations which are overrun, the loss of the Divide as another route for trade. They're wounded.
The NCR isn't in control, and what's more it's made painfully clear that all roads pass through Vegas. Should NCR leave, New Vegas is suddenly left with everyone whose made a home there as well as anyone who wishes to continue trading north and east. Short of finding an air route over the rocky mountains or a sea route through the potentially bombed out panama canal, what is NCR going to do- turn inward on itself? House knows NCR is eating up its own resources and has come to branching out in search of more to annex. And the same for Caesar and his armies from east to west. NCR is locked- say it pride- say it greed, say it for want of a better solution they've mired themselves within the region.
Whether house deserves to be put out of play is irrelevant. Whether they're able to remove him is what matters. And again for however much of that falls on contrivances of the writers, that seems contingent on the courier. House isn't a parasite - he knows what he has and he knows how much both sides want it. He's willing to play them off one another until neither side is left strong enough to oppose him. How difficult is that to comprehend?
The restrictive treaty he put the NCR under was with the understanding that NCR would never have signed it were they not under duress. Have we played the same game here? NCR doesn't keep alliances any better than Caesar's Legion- that is to say it takes what it wants, and breaks treaties, promises, and simply subsumes those cultures it meets when it feels it's advantageous. The NCR is a heavy-handed(somewhat slanted) allegory to the United States' and its policies of colonialism throughout the latter half of the nineteenth century and beyond. It's kinder on the face but at heart no less ruthless than the Legion or any other expansive power.
Yes, they are. The most significant trade, the trade that sustains New Vegas, is trade with the NCR core lands. There is no trade over New Vegas, New Vegas isn't on any significant trade route with no other options, New Vegas became a part of a trade route with the NCR core. The Mojave does not have the ability to sustain New Vegas. There are barely any productive towns around it, and the entire area is sparsely populated. You misunderstood the relation between the NCR and New Vegas completely.
House's plan is flimsy because he envisions Vegas at the heart of trade, even though nothing else is realistic but it continuing to leech on other powers, or at best abusing its ill-gained monopoly on the dam. Again, he refuses to allow the Strip to be the core of productive industry or a save haven for traders. Makes sense from a personality standpoint? Sure. Makes sense as an economic plan? Nope, it's dumb. That doesn't mean Vegas wouldn't survive in his plan, but it does mean there are much better options.
I don't care about the good guy equation either. The NCR is by far the best option for the Mojave, there's no real questioning it. The only significant problem the NCR has is pressure from the Legion, and you can fix that easy. Obsidian pushes this angle a lot to but the argument makes no sense, the Legion and House have inherent problems as organizations, NCR doesn't, if you remove the Legion you alleviate all the pressure on NCR that keeps it from their oft-critized failings (being overstretched, not guarding trade routes)
Trade route towns, sure. When exactly do you think Las Vegas became the town it is now? As in a gambling haven, rather than a town on a traderoute?
Reno still exists, and is much closer by. Vegas is unnecessary. And remember, the NCR is in the Mojave for Hoover Dam, not for Vegas.
There is nothing of value inside the Strip available to people except safety, and House is refusing to share that with camp followers, merchants and pioneers, the very people you name.
Not to be too nitpicky, but the House mentioned in all those terminals at H&H Tools is Anthony House, Robert House's brother. Anthony is the one with the weird stuff going on about sealing off the bathrooms and cutting off roof access.