For Americans- Is Torture acceptable?

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by welsh, Mar 1, 2005.

  1. Malky

    Malky Lived Through the Heat Death
    Orderite

    May 7, 2003
    ...

    Holy. Shit.
     
  2. Elric

    Elric First time out of the vault

    90
    Feb 26, 2005
    Hey welsh, if you're interested in more info about the Red Brigade, just go ahead and ask. It's a matter still open here in my country and in my city, too. Though I have to say most people around here don't know the facts in detail, nor do they care, and that's sad. But as a history student, I have frequent arguments/discussions about this topic, so...

    And Gonzales, I'd like to know if you can suggest me any book about Argentina's contemporary history. I have studied it (not too deeply, I'm afraid) up until independence, but the rest is obscure for the most part, except for the major issues of course.

    To anyone else, I'm sorry I'm being so boring, but I'm almost finishing university, and I can't think of anything else but history (and beer)!
     
  3. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    The problem is that it is in Spanish language, and I don't know if there is a translation. But here it goes: "Dos siglos en la Argentina, Una interpretación sociohistórica; Laura Alori, Teodoro Blanco, Mónica Campins, Ángel Cerra, Palmira Dobaño Fernandez, Horacio Gaggero, Ana Pfeiffer; Editorial Biblos 2002; Buenos Aires, Argentina." It is a book that gives a good general view of Argentina's history from the independence up until the 90's. Of course that if you want to go in depth you will have to find complementary bibliography.
     
  4. Elric

    Elric First time out of the vault

    90
    Feb 26, 2005
    Thanks a lot, I'll start with that book... the language might not be a problem, I remember having a book about mexican history and it was in spanish, but I found it readable enough for an italian.
    Again, Thank you!
     
  5. uziel

    uziel Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    355
    Feb 5, 2005
    An Eye for an Eye is a good system overall, but having EVERYTHING have the saem consequence is a bit extreme. Do realize that not all of the types of torture listed can actually be considered torture in my book. There's nothing wrong with having a prisoner shave his beard or belittling his ego, as long as the other prisoners can expect the same thing. Fairness. That's the way I live. Everyone is equal and deserves a fair chance. Of course, there are some crimes that cannot be forgiven. But torture is not an option under any circumstance. If a soldier is interrogating a terrorist suspect, I believe he has the right to scream his lungs out at the man, but no right to hit him. Also, the goverment should think of how they're capturing these suspects. They should have evidence connecting him to whatever he's being blamed for. Since when could we arrest because we may think someone is doing something? If I followed a man in a trenchcoat because I couldn't see his face, I'd be judging someone. If the goverment really is deporting suspects for tortuure, I blame the nation that they're being sent to for mistreating a prisoner. It may have been effective in teh past, but times have changed and morals are better.
     
  6. Adz

    Adz Professional Lurker

    134
    Jul 18, 2004
    What Atkins was suggesting wasn't eye for eye by the stictest sence. He says that if someone murders someone, they should be torted first and then executed in public.

    That makes the treatment worse than the crime they commited in the first place, does it not?
     
  7. uziel

    uziel Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    355
    Feb 5, 2005
    That's just wrong. Nobody should be humilitaed like that, no matter what they did. A flat out execution is contraversial enough!
     
  8. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    The matter here is that if we all live in a civilized society, or at least we expect to live in one, the use of torture as a terrifying control tool is unacceptable.

    Does any of you would already raped a girl if it wasn't because you go to jail. I don't think so, I think any civilized been knows why is wrong, that doing something like that is wrong because you are hurting someone.

    Education and the built of a strong social and civilized character is the key to avoid rapers, no to have all people scared that if they do something wrong they are going to pay real hard. If they do something wrong then separate them from the rest of the society because he cannot live in one, and put him in jail or in a mental institute. And if the crime is not that serious, try to rehabilitate the subject rather than punish him.
     
  9. uziel

    uziel Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    355
    Feb 5, 2005
    You should always try to rehabilitate someone. That's why we have parole.
     
  10. Aktins Diet

    Aktins Diet It Wandered In From the Wastes

    170
    Mar 8, 2005
    *sighs* well if you don’t believe me that’s your fault not mine. I really don’t care what you think about me, just as long as you are mature and do not flame me. (Saying stupid, etc) And I have never fired a real gun in my life, and I plan on not either. You see, that’s the prob. when talking on the internet, people think what you think is what you are. You never really get the chance to meet that person. And I understand that, so your statement does not bother me. After all, you have seen my thoughts, not my actions.

    Oh, and ponder this: I am giving a speech at my school on a new program for the victims in Asia after the big wave. My plan is to sell Green "Ribbons" for 2 bucks. (the same kind that look like the ones for supporting breast cancer and supporting the troops in Iraq)
    I also would like to sell the Wal-Mart donuts for 1.00 (.44 per piece to buy at the store)

    By the way, I am 6'4'' so that’s tall. I was describing him a lil to you. "Painting a pic." Again, if you don’t think I am jolly and usually in a good mood, fine, I can understand the situation. And your right, I am trying to come off as the nice guy. Cause I really am, but by all means I am not trying to make it sound like torture is ok, for torture is REALLY BAD. I was using it as a point to show that what people think is not always what people do.

    thx for the clarity. I never could spell that word. Even spell check could not help. I will copy and past that and see if I can memorize it. thx.:)
    Now, that basically what I did say. Only that you can think one thing, but not follow through with it, or help support it (aka: killing all the feminists)

    Supporting or following through these thoughts are actions.

    I hate ants, but I continued to walk by, still hating them, but kept on walking.
    I hate ants, so I smashed them all.

    ________________
    lil side question: Do you think what people think is what makes them a character? Or what they do and act is what makes up who they are, after all, personalities is based off of experiences. And experiences are from actions. (What you did, how you reacted to something, etc)
    ____________________
    well, I am suggesting a way that will eliminate that :)
    Also, How do you purpose we change it?
    I have protested, But most Americans are dumb, and think our leaders are wonderful Not to mention the ones that do care are spineless.

    Big Business controls our country, and the only way to stop them is to over throw the government, kill all the devils that rule us, and start a new fair government.
    LOL like that’s going to happen.
    But if you have a plan that can defeat all of this peacefully, please speak up and tell me.

    AND LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR SOME! :that’s what we should say every morn:
     
  11. Aktins Diet

    Aktins Diet It Wandered In From the Wastes

    170
    Mar 8, 2005
    what your sugestion inclinds is time, money, and where the hell do you plan to put all those people? WE HAVE NO MORE ROOM LEFT REALLY!

    I guess some people are right, you have to lose a faimly member or it has to affect you in some way before you can feel the way i do
    *sighs*
     
  12. Tannhauser

    Tannhauser Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Orderite

    Mar 18, 2004
    If you find you have more things to say after you make a post, edit in your extra comments into your earlier post. We discourage double posting here.
     
  13. Aktins Diet

    Aktins Diet It Wandered In From the Wastes

    170
    Mar 8, 2005
    sorry, I will try to not let it happen again.
    You see, over at bungie.net, that sort of thing does not exist. Sorry.
     
  14. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    That is my point, if you don't invest time and money on it you will keep having criminals no matter the punishments you use.

    Do you think the threat of torture is going to change the way a raper thinks after he was abused by his parents because of the lack of a solid family nucleus? Because most rapers records show they were abused when kids, and then they cannot understand why they should not do the same to others. Same with muggers, they are hit by their parents, live in misery, until they have the strength to strangulate the rich for the money they covet. With a better education and a better way of life to everyone you avoid this kind of situations. Yet you rather spend one million dollars in a Tomahawk missile.

    In any case, you can't have the rest of the population under the threat of terror for something they would most likely never do.
     
  15. Big T

    Big T Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jan 23, 2004
    What a person thinks, feels and how much control they have over their actions make up their personality.

    If you have a feeling that is "evil", but you think it is wrong so you exercise some self control and do not act on it. But you still have to realise that what you are feeling is wrong, that you should not be feeling it at all rather than just not doing it.

    For example, person A hates people of another race, but he knows it is wrong to hate them and tries to treat them in the same way he would treat others and change how he feels.

    Person B hates people of another sexuality, but he does not think it is right that he feels this, so he hides it by not associating with them.

    Person C hates people of another religion, he doesn't attack them because he will go to prison. He does not think or fell that his opinions are inherently wrong, but is restrained by fear of retribution.

    There is a fundamental difference between these examples, yet none of them has acted on their opinions. In your system (where only your actions determine your character) they are all in the same moral position. In my eyes, only person A is morally justified in their actions because they are trying to make themselves a better person.