Geo-Strategic discussion US-Europe-and the rest

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Tagaziel, May 21, 2008.

  1. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Edit- This thread has been snipped from the Military Service thread.

    Thorgrimm writes in that thread-

    You give yourself and the USA military way too much credit.

    It's expected, though.
  2. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    So Bush lying is a-okay because 'they did it tooo!!'?
    Give me a break.

    Maybe you should go re-check your reports, because 'everybody and their brother' did in fact, not, think their WMDs. In fact, there was exactly 0 hard evidence of that.
  3. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    That is indisputable (primarily because Europe was in no condition to fight, being the primary battlefield of WW2).

    What is disputable is the claim that America won World War Two in Europe.
  4. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Mik- I agree that the notion that the US won the war in Europe single handed is grossly exaggerated. Its fair to say that the US was a big contributor to the defeat of Germany and Italy. But I think it safe to say the Russians played a more signficant role in the defeat of Germany.

    Likewise, the US played a much larger role in the War against Japan, but even there other allies played a large role in fighting Japan in Burma and China.

    But yep- without the US there would be no NATO- without NATO no unified EU.

    As for Lewisite - I suspect you're either a troll or an idiot. If you're legit, than you're a future disgrace to the uniform and the country. Strike for trolling.
  5. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Oh yes. The amount of German military on the Eastern Front was four times the size of the contingent fighting off COMBINED allied forces in the West.

    Funnily, if the Western allies managed to push through the Balkan invasion plan, war would've ended much sooner. And Poland would not be fucked for the next 44 years.
  6. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Ehm, yes, so? Do we now 'owe' you guys or something? No, in fact, we don't.
    The concept of moral debt in international politics is pretty dumb. Nations constantly evolve and change, the USA as it exists today is nowhere near the USA as it was 60 years ago and whether or not the USA helped us out back then is pretty irrelevant to how our current attitudes should be.

    Furthermore, a nation's first priority always has to be its own people in one form or the other.
  7. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Did I mention moral debt?

    Hey if you don't want to acknowledged that NATO allowed the EU to emerge, or that one of the reasons the EU is so progressive is because the US helped subsidize your defense spending- fine. I don't give a crap about moral debts. Its a matter of honesty.

    Whether your current attitudes are based on some sense of historic friendship, partnership or some sense of Euro pride for having high levels of social prosperity and political liberalism- fine.

    I would think a bit of honesty would be important for forming attitudes, no? Of course one can ignore history and shape one's attitudes based on one's delusions. If you elect to go that path... good luck to you.

    As I've mentioned before- transatlantic partnership between the US and Europe has generally been a good thing for both sides. I doubt the future will change that. But if young new Europe wants a more competitive relationship, I guess that's your call. Given the problems of the future, frankly, I don't buy that.

    Either the US and Europe work together and some progress is made in fixing the world's problems. If they compete, than its another generation of wasted time.

    I would think that President Gump and his collection of crony crooks in DC hasn't helped, so I look forward to seeing him gone. But if Europe thinks it can go it alone... well... good luck with that.
  8. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Huh? He did acknowledge it.
  9. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    I know history welsh, I know how essential the US was during the Cold War era and I know that there have been very fertile relationships in the past and 'even' nowadays.

    But very often when Americans discuss Europe, at some point the concept of moral debt does come up, that Europe somehow owes the US, which is completely irrelevant. Note, I don't mean you.

    I think the EU is trying to get rid of the idea of being the little brother to the US, and with it comes some rebelling for the sake of rebelling. Yes, this is silly. No, this isn't always conducive. But I think it is healthy in the long run for relations between the US and the EU. It has nothing to do with honesty or ignoring one's history, it's more about growing up.
  10. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    @Sander and BN- This is a lot of hot air over nothing. As mentioned, I don't give two shits about moral debts. What I care about is a decent partnership and relationship.

    My point was simple- that Thorgrimm is correct that what is enjoyed today in Europe is, in part, due to a US military presence. That presence served both the US and Europe. It is, to me, the basis of a good partnership by two regions. Frankly, I don't buy the little brother idea much. America is, essentially, a society comprised of Europeans. Sure we have a genetic mix, but its still mostly a European settler culture.

    As for the future- I see Europe as eventually replacing the US as the dominant power- and frankly, I prefer that to China or any other superpower wannabe. Whether the Europeans are up to the task, I'm not sure. But I think what the US needs is to rebuild its strength at home. If the US pulls back, that leaves a power vacuum. Not sure if the Europeans are up for filling it.
  11. Sovz

    Sovz Vault Dweller

    Aug 11, 2003
    I would have to disagree with you on this one... Europe as a whole is a collection of squabbling nations that for the most part unable to get their act together. Sure they have a common economic sphere but thats where it ends. There's not a single trace of what might resemble consolidated foreign policy.

    I cant see how the *core* European countries such as Germany or France will ever volunteer having their international clout reduced.

    Nation states are what they've always been... egocentric opportunists and nothing is going to change that.

    … but then again I’m probably just cranky because I had to stay late at work today…
  12. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Yes. You're cranky. I'd be cranky too if that fucking carrot was too big to fit my mouth.
  13. Carib FMJ

    Carib FMJ Nuka-Cola Chaser

    Nov 8, 2003
    History does change and so do allies for whatever reasons.

    There will always be cultural differences, each culture claiming it has a right or more of a right to be a guiding power.

    The idea of 'owing' someone for help say 60 or so the years ago is a bit of a stretch, though it would be wise to cultivate good ties with friendly nations and even heal the rift between nations that are or were rivals.

    Just like we fought the Iraqis, and now we're on friendly terms, though the definition of friendly is debatable between the service people who are out here. Times change, and so do allies and enemies.
  14. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    And you wouldn't exist if we hadn't made you.

    Let's not honestly pretend that matters.

    Extremely unlikely in the scope and normal path of history. It might happen, but a fallen empire climbing up again has never really happened, ever. EU and US are both too far in decline.

    What I find more likely and far more desirable than either the EU or US being torchbearers is the significant reduction of importance attributed to nation states. Charles Tilly's theory, basically.
  15. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    @BN- What the fuck? Did I not say that the US is generally a creation of Europe?

    Ignore the fact that the US fought a war of independence, an almost war with France, another war with England....

    How much history do you need? Or are you and Sander bent on beating off?

    One might also say that the US would not have been created if Europe didn't spend so much time going to war with itself.

    WHich is probably Europe's problem- an over enlarged sense of importance, high levels of nationalism, petty squabbles, internal competition. Its the divisions that can undo you.

    But as the EU suggests, Europe is outgrowing that to create a sense of aunited identity, of shared history and culture that also respects distinctions. As China grows economically stronger, as it challenges European influence in different parts of the world, and as the Russians wag their military strength and oil power, the Europeans will likely respond by uniting rather than dividing.

    I think Europe is in a better place than its been - ever. That it manages to maintain its liberal democratcy and largely capitalist economy added to its ethnic and national differences- at least its honest.

    Compared to China? The CCP hangs onto power by claiming its hegemony in economic growth. But now it can't even control its own economy least the social reprecussions challenge its rule.

    After the recent earthquakes a lot of Chinese are beginning to ask questions about their government- which will probably be the biggest hurdle for China to become a superpower. IF the CCP falls- then we can probably see China become the superpower it strives to be. Until then- the problem of corruption is rampant. For all its growth- China suffers huge income disparities and has a massive population that lives in squalor. To remain in power it must build its despotic power- its ability to repress and to dominate through force. Such states eventually bankrupt themselves.

    Russia- a third world nation with oil and nuclear weapons run by petty dictators. Another authoritarian dictatorship with a limited shelflife.

    I wouldn't write too much into US decline. US was largely a super power before World War 2 and its economy is still powerful. THat the US became so power after World War 2 had much to do with the weakness of other regions. As those powers grow, relatively the US declines. But relative decline isn't the same as absolute decline.

    We might be going thorugh a period of overstretch and W's last 7 years has made matters only worse. I expect the US will need to go through a period of consolidation and reform.
  16. horse

    horse Vault Fossil

    May 31, 2003
    i am german and by that very used to growing up in a country with a basically non-existent army (or an army which you make jokes of). i liked that.

    besides that, there is no question that EVERY major country NEEDS an army. not to defend themselves against the aggression of a superpower (this will not happen because it does not make any sense economically), but to be able to set up a task force and to participate on another mission in smaller countries. of course there are other reasons. the function of armies is to reach economic goals.

    i still dont get the idea of a regime constantly at war and the benefit of that. europe clearly does not need that. if there is a "war", then it is lead by our companies. dont get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with that. if id be an american, id be deeply republican.

    if there is a hegemony, its an economic one. and right now i cant see any hegemony.

    most of what i said is not thought through. so correct me, i look forward to that.
  17. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Beating off what?

    These are all, all, historical irrelevantisms. I don't care why anyone would care to bring up either "Europe made the US" or "the US made the EU", they're irrelevant. Not just to the concept of moral debt either, because the US-and-EU are buddy-buddy not because they share a history but because they share a future, having similar culture and outlook.

    Actually, historical consensus tends to be that the rise of the nation state and the prominence of Europe in world history both rise from Europe's tendency towards internal war between states, compared to tribal war in Africa or internal peace in China.

    Problem? It's what's made the world what it is today. No war, no nation states. No nation states, no industrial revolution.

    Regardless, the growth potential of Europe as a military power and as an economic power is weak. Decline isn't just wished away, it is something that simply is.

    Hell, consider this: it isn't even remotely in the EU's interest to be a world dominant power. Why would we?

    Yeah, it pretty much is. Leave aside for a moment that Western history knows only one period with one dominant superpower (post-Napoleon pre-Germany United Kingdom, that is), it's a historical truism that relative decline leads inevitably to absolute decline, both in military and in an economic sense.
  18. Elissar

    Elissar Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Aug 31, 2003
    So you admit, that Europe is solely responsible for global warming.
  19. Quantos Leap

    Quantos Leap It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Apr 6, 2005
    1930s: "Why do we need an army? Who would attack us? It just wouldn't make sense economically."

    Furthermore, the world is constantly changing. Disarming yourself and going all pacifist might seem appropriate at this time with not much immediate concern for a world war, but it's silly to think it's always going to be this way.

    Imperialism is always opportunistic. The easier you make it for them, the more likely it will happen.

    You said we all need armies, but not for this reason. I disagree.
  20. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Europe is solely responsible for every problem the modern world has.

    I think we should nuke it.