House Resolution 4437

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Corith, Apr 1, 2006.

  1. The Vault Dweller

    The Vault Dweller always looking for water.

    Aug 24, 2004
    I agree that Illegal Immigration is wrong and they should be deported if at the very least, because of the abuse it creates in the system. Even moreso now considering what Montez said and remembering some family members that went through the same thing.

    I'd like to add one thing however. Isnt it ironic the President would favor a lenient stance on illegal immigration when in fact illegal immigration is technically a part of the issue on the war on terror? I mean if as many people can get into the US as easily as they can across the Mexican border and the President shows he wont increase security I wonder how many terrorists would considering taking a Mexican vacation before coming into the USA?

    Sincerely,
    The Vault Dweller
     
  2. Jarno Mikkola

    Jarno Mikkola Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    905
    Jul 14, 2005
    Oh wait, if the whole country was without jobs, why wouldn't it want to buy services from the people that have been trained to do the things that the country might need, and just give the people a piece of parer that might have a federal stamp on it saying that the people might get a piece of gold when ever they might give it back to the government. :shock: :o Oh, they are doing it already. Notes the many mights.
     
  3. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Admin

    May 27, 2004
    you actually believe terrorists would bother?
    they simply get (or buy) a visum...

    Join the Mobile Infantry.
    Service guarantees citizenship.

    Would you like to know more?
     
  4. Quantos Leap

    Quantos Leap It Wandered In From the Wastes

    162
    Apr 6, 2005
    No, you didn't say those things per se, I was just extrapolating that arguement to encompass the larger picture. The argument doesn't make sense and it certainly doesn't offer any challenge to people with even the slightest grasp on how things work.

    About favoring mexicans, I was refering to the same argument. It's an argument that pushes the focus purely on ethnicity. It was the native americans that were the victim, so mexicans find it convenient to associate with them, on the basis of race, claiming that they have the rights to this land, and it is ridiculous that americans would try to keep them out. This is just racist and wrong. Just sayin'.

    :)

    No, no...you can't. That would just be a bit of a assholish thing to do, I agree. But look, we're in this situation for a reason, and refusing to deal with the many problems will just make it worse and even harder to fix in the future. As for how to deal with these people? Make exceptions, according to set guidelines, allowing people to stay if they've been here a certain number of years, have had children before all this shit, and have had a generally sound criminal background. The current ones aren't exactly the problem anyway. It's the prospect that more and more will just keep pouring in.

    I don't know what you mean by that exactly. The laws shouldn't be harsh, just to be harsh, but they should reflect that we have a sane amount of control over what comes in a out of our country. Not only on the border, but internally, for those who hire them in the first place.

    You know it's not as simple as that welsh.

    I couldn't care less about the ethnicity of the invaders. Fact is, when these illegals belong to a group with such a gap in comparison to the average american, the void is extremely damaging to the country's integrity and standards. And this can apply to any ethnic group. Mexicans are the focus here, because it's the mexicans that have this problem currently.

    I absolutely agree. Incentives for them to stay would also require a complete overhaul in government and politics over there. It's so fucking corrupt, it's unbelievable. But yes, they're in so much trouble, they barely have a middle class. A strong middle class is obviously what keeps a country powerful and favorable to live in. Unfortunately, it takes time for stuff like that to be fixed, and during that process, we can't ignore the problem at hand amd keep letting them come in at such numbers.

    And that's part of the problem. The fact is, these illegal mexicans are willing to be exploited for their hard work with not much compensation. That creates not only a social underclass, but it decreases wage and quality standards all accross the board.

    "Well, I'm sorry Jim, I can't pay you 18 dollars an hour anymore"
    "Why not?"
    "Becuase the Mexicans will do it for 6"

    Can't you see why this is a bad thing for our country's economic equality?

    We, along with the mexicans, live in a land of double standards my friend.
     
  5. Per

    Per Vault Consort Staff Member Admin

    Apr 1, 2004
    I am mesmerized by the Jarnian...
     
  6. Montez

    Montez So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Jun 20, 2003
    By saying the same thing that I've been hearing all my life. For most of my life people, politicians, and the media have been trying to force guilt on me for the native americans and slavery and every other shitty thing the US has ever done just because I'm "white". I realize now that you didn't mean it that way, but it's common enough here that I assumed you were going for the same thing.

    I agree with you in principle, but think of what you just said in terms of my story. If the government doesn't care that they are deporting someone whose been in my group of friends for years and is breaking up a happy long term relationship, why should I care about the same thing happening to some anonymous person? Especially when that "anonymous person" isn't actually a person, but an entire ethnic group/nationality/whatever, and the "moral" reason for their getting a pass is that there are enough of them to stage a protest and possibly affect a few elections? That's bullshit, and one of the things I hate about this place. I'll care about "moral limits" when the moral limits are equally and fairly applied to everyone, regardless of race, religion or nationality - which is what I'm told this country is supposed to be about, though I've yet to see it in practice except in small doses.
     
  7. Corith

    Corith Still Mildly Glowing

    292
    Apr 28, 2004
    I am not a child of the 60's mentality. Rules are rules, and every single illegal immigrant has broken at least 2 laws. One, is crossing in the first place, and the second is working AS an illegal entrant. Many more commit identity theft in order to find legal work.

    I don't care about why they are here, what jobs they are doing, how much it benefits the economy, what language they speak, or even the color of the their skin. The plain and simple fact is that laws have been broken, and the perpetrators should punished to the full extent of the law for their transgressions.

    I do not believe in government by tantrum. Standing in the streets demanding for inclusion into the legal system while being law breakers, and/or accomplices to lawbreakers is disgusting at the least.
     
  8. Dabeav

    Dabeav First time out of the vault

    47
    Feb 20, 2006
    Ahhh, this shows exactly why a military dictatorship is so cleverly seductive. I know it really doesn't have too much to do with the plight of Mexican immigrants, but it does show kinda what the U.S. is heading toward, a militaristic or police state. Problem for them is, they aren't as good as the Nazi party at it and will have an increasing minority of dissidents. Probably enough to make a statement or "retreat" into Canada and rally some help from compassionate neighbors.

    The other side of this, besides disarming everyone, is to have everyone armed and ready. This was the idea of the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Switzerland does this, you don't see them having many issues with security OR privacy do you?

    And as Heinlein is oft-qouted from another novel of his, "An armed society is a polite society." How many people are going to risk pissing each other off when they can get killed over it? Not very fucking many.

    As for our Mexican friends that want to come here, let them - if they can do a job better than you, well then that's competition. Maybe they'll start their own business like many immigrants have done. As for them just coming to live on welfare, if you get rid of welfare you eliminate this problem. If you need help, ask those around you, not the government agency who doesn't give a shit.

    [/b]
     
  9. DirtyDreamDesigner

    DirtyDreamDesigner Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Moderator

    Apr 15, 2005
    Wrong, the same law of the stronger applies here only with more deadly consequences. Arming everybody doesn't make a Switzerland, it makes the wild fucking west or south central L.A.

    Except for the breaking the law part.



    :rofl:
     
  10. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Admin

    May 27, 2004
    yet again you assume to know what i meant by my response and then you go on saying its useless.

    i mentioned a cliché that i found rather humorous, just drop it.

    making an exception with clear guidelines is what we did not so long ago, but it doesnt solve any problems on the long term. its simply crisis management. what use is a regularisation if the laws regulating migration dont evolve.

    in some cities in the US you still got laws that a man with a red flag should walk in front of a women driving a car. there is not a single soul in the US that would even think of still following this law, right?

    when laws are too moronic, too harsh, too much in the way of progress, or too unreal, they simply get ignored. which is what happens with immigrants & work.

    you might want to investigate why middle & south american countries have such fubar governements. ironically, a lot of their problems can be traced back to the US.

    i believe you cant judge someone for something his ancestors did. i think you are to be judged on your own actions, rest assured.

    you dont know em + everyone gets deported equally = everything is fine?


    do you really believe that if you cant see it & if you dont know them, it's not your problem?
     
  11. Montez

    Montez So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Jun 20, 2003
    You're not following me:

    My friend: Turkish muslim, entered the country through legal means, set down roots here.

    Anonymous illegal immigrant of the type under debate: Latino/hispanic christian, entered the country through illegal means, set down roots here.

    Tell me why the law should be enforced for one but not the other. If my friend hadn't gotten married but still stayed in this country, she would have been arrested and forcibly deported. Tell me why I should accept that the same thing that would have happened to her shouldn't happen to every illegal immigrant as well. When the law is universally and equally enforced, then I'll care about both groups equally. Until that time comes, I'm going to be against the group who are trying to evade the law and make themselves exclusively exempt from it, especially when people I know are getting screwed over.
     
  12. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Admin

    May 27, 2004
    so, a guy thats now 90 years old that deserted during the Vietnam war should be executed for desertion in time of war?

    regularize the people who have lasting ties in the US & review the law...

    edit typofix: now instead of not
     
  13. Dabeav

    Dabeav First time out of the vault

    47
    Feb 20, 2006
    Oh really. So, you think everyone will become criminals, eh. Criminals can already get fully automatic weapons. They do so by BREAKING THE LAW. If lawful, good people can get the same weapons, the odds are even.

    The Wild West was when the world was "bigger", bandits could hide easily and not easily pursued. South Central L.A. has fully armed gangs vs a less armed citizenry and the SWAT teams, the gangs have the numbers and weapon superiority, and disregard for everything. Imagine an armed citizenry banding together and forcing these crackheads to surrender, leave or die.
     
  14. Roshambo

    Roshambo Antediluvian as Feck

    Apr 3, 2003
    Bingo, Corith. I don't give a shit if they are Mexican, Canadian, Swedish, Swiss, German, Japanese, Irish, Chinese, or anyone else. If you break a country's border, you are essentially an invader into their country, with almost NO protections against their local laws. You are at THEIR sufferance and decision at that point.

    In some countries, you are SHOT, or arrested and imprisoned entirely when found to have no papers. The Mexicans have had it pretty fucking easy compared to other illegal immigration attempts in the past. We could also dredge who did what in the past, but sorry, the borders have been in place for many decades, nobody is trying to get into their "promised land" so they can mow it at $3 an hour cheaper than minimum wage.

    Sorry, but I have to take a stand as a citizen and a veteran of this country, as someone who has helped make this country what it is, even if it means that fat politicians can profit from selling out the middle class. It is also so that there might be someone to help Mexico or another country again at some point, instead of act like a leech victim to take down along with Mexico through socio-economic destruction of both countries, as suddenly the US now has to coddle the "welfare state" of Mexico.

    I have contributed over ten years of my life to this country, many times swearing to uphold the Constitution, international law, the Geneva Conventions, and lastly, the Boy Scout Oath. :D

    I'm only guilty of violating the latter.

    I have also been shot for my country.

    Yet someone expects to walk across the border, not contribute a fucking thing, and instead leech off of MY hard work which I did at the risk of MY LIFE? They don't want to help others, they don't want to help my country, they are only interested in themselves without any care of what their actions do to others. So fuck 'em.

    So if life sucks in your country, do something about it - we are all given a place in life, and some of them do suck. I am quite sympathetic to those who are trying to do the right thing - but fleeing a country with only personal gain in mind - you're a selfish shit in my eyes In other words, don't wade into the community pool I helped create and expect me to be happy if you take a shit when you should be grateful that you're not removed from the pool immediately, while also labeling me for every other goddamn crime the "white US" has done in the past before my Irish-German-Japanese ancestors came to this country. I get that enough from the "uneducated crack/rap/head niggers who do their own disrespecting of their own culture"*. My folks immigrated as per the laws of the time allowed, and have worked to help this country as US citizens through the generations. It's called "civic duty". Is anyone here that foolish to believe that most illegal immigrants are trying to do the same? If so, let me show you a few barrios and neighborhoods that result in lead asswear if you don't even remotely look latino. I can pass off as a half-breed thanks due to my Japanese heritage, but that's besides the point.

    Instead, help clean your own goddamn pool, or emigrate or refugee yourself legally, or you're worm food unless you want to do like how these "rights by tantrum" people want to do and play the race card. Political fucking correctness has been a problem long enough, and it only allows shit like this to go on under really weak excuses and under "racial discrimination". Yes, the Mexican is a Mexican, and thusly why "beaner" is a racial slur and should be avoided, while "wetback" is to denote the illegal immigrant trash.

    Mexican != US Citizen. They are given certain human rights as per under international humanitarian law, but unless they hope to fix their own shit, they aren't going to do anything but make the problem worse and drag it into a more complex problem that their selfishness doesn't take into account nor care about. If they don't bother to try, I don't fucking care about them or if the US border is eventually CLOSED AND ENFORCED. That means border runners WILL BE SHOT. That is standard for every country with a closed border, who had to close the border due to political issues or problems such as these, I don't see how the wetbacks can feel special about it.

    I'm trying to keep my country from becoming a worse shithole than what it has become. The least I could expect would be for the Mexicans to do the same for their own backyard, but instead they seem to enjoy the relative ease of hopping over the border to fill the local high schools with degenerate anchor baby gang spawn trash that the drunken or spun parents don't give a shit about - most of the time. I wouldn't like to sound discriminatory, but I'm really not being discriminatory, I'm stating the truth no matter how harsh and brutal it might sound. There is no "felon discrimination" nor "discrimination against criminals" in this country, unless you accidentally allow the burglar to live and sue you for shooting him in the leg.

    So, I see a lot of short-sighted and entirely selfish Mexicans expecting something for free, especially legal status simply because they invaded this country to do cheaper labor to send money out of the country or for untaxed labor while enjoying the results of said taxes, and then can sound like they are owed something as if it's a marathon run and the US owes them something for completing it. Sorry Mexico, we don't owe you a fucking thing, especially when you present a Matrica Consular as if it's supposed to be some fucking green card because you had one made in Mexico. It is bad enough that banks such as Wells Fargo and a couple on the east coast have programs for sending money back to Mexico, all entirely advertised en Español, none requiring US Citizenship to enroll into a program that is Federally insured. I guess the banks don't have any delusions as to whom their customers are; as long as they get their fee, they can make money from funneling that money into the Mexican economy quite happily.

    I honestly don't have a problem with Mexican culture, in fact I enjoy many aspects of it and have more than enough friends of the more traditional roots**, many of which share my beliefs because they see the harm that illegal immigration is causing to their own reputation. They are from families who do have honor, culture, integrity, and who would rather do what is right even if it is difficult than break the law to make life easier for themselves at the cost of others. They also busted ass to be able to live here in the states, as did my Thai friend, as have many others done. Taking an illegal "shortcut" does nothing but cause problems.

    I think my personal hang-up in disliking wetbacks is centered around not liking criminals, so that doesn't allow me to have any sympathy towards those who care neither for Mexico, nor the US, so doubly, fuck the wetbacks. It is neither illegal nor discriminatory to disown and denigrate those who are illegal immigrants, in fact it's pretty much part of the law of the land.

    LEGALITY

    This is a whole new can of worms. One that is easy for this big fish to digest.

    What happens now when you illegally are in the US? Comparatively, a slap on the wrist, and you are returned to GO.

    Crossing the border without authorization is a misdemeanor for the first offense and a felony for subsequent violations. Immigrants who are caught illegally trespassing U.S. territory are fingerprinted and immediately returned, unless they are a repeat offender, in which case they may be criminally prosecuted. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) made the hiring of an illegal alien an offense for the first time. American businesses have hired well over 10 million illegal aliens per year.

    Compared to most other countries, this is light.

    So, let's see what a felony entails? No right to vote...as if illegals had that in the first place, or even care except to get those sympathetic to them to skullfuck laws on their behalf. Jail time, but that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone outside of Mexico, though invading another country seems to be perfectly fine for them if it's the US border. For the cost of damages in deportation, it is more costly than such crimes as Grand Theft Auto, to put it into perspective in case some off-site reader reads this. Since that is a felony, being on foreign soil illegally without contributing is FAR less.

    It is already in the law, as if you cross twice, it's treated as a felony. The difference is by including the "dwelling" into the count of "breaking and entering", to put it into more street vernacular.

    LAZINESS, LOOKING FOR AN EASY WAY OUT

    It seems that instead of working through the lull, as the US once had to several times and through the Great Depression and is starting to have to go through troubled times again, the Mexicans want to run "to the promised land" and make their own situation better. In the past, Times Have SUCKED. The Irish had to go through the potato famine, and luckily they could immigrate to the US. Same with the Chinese and others. It depended upon when it could be provided for, and I have a feeling Japan might change its immigration policies for a while.

    REALITY

    As in the article above...really, what kind of living is that, when you are still treated as a non-entity, face jail, can't do ANYTHING like a citizen...and you PAID a coyote or a snakehead for this privilege?

    Go you.

    BOTTOM LINE

    You want to know why immigration has been restricted so badly? Because the illegals have made it too costly and too unknown while presenting a significant drain, that the immigration officials are more concerned with stopping the flow of illegals before considering opening the border to more with legal status. Unfortunately, it seems like half of fucking Mexico wants to move to the US now, at about 3% per year. All I can say is holy fucking shit, that has GOT to stop.

    * - The Boondocks, the return of Martin Luther King Jr. episode, and the n-bomb is used in such a context, though I do refer to both the "white" and "black" varieties of these kind of people. Again, I have no problem with those of different skin or culture, but if you're going to tell me a black man that sells crack to his own people or otherwise preys upon his own people and gloats about it, then has BET to kiss their ass as if they are a celebrity any good for this country or his own culture, I'll point to the wetback and say that they are the same kind of human trash. They are doing the same kind of selling out of their people, their culture, all for the sake of having a personally easier life at someone else's expense.

    ** - I find this entirely too fucking funny. Cinqo de Mayo is about the only thing these wetbacks really only drag over about their culture, except for the cow painted on the side of the truck complete with wetback horn and the rest of the Standard Kit, and that is the celebration of something comparatively inconsequential.

    It would be like holding the Battle of Antiem as a national holiday and celebrating that at US consulates and embassies across the world...no, wait, that would make more sense. The Battle of Puebla was comparatively a minor scuffle when put against other military feats in the world, and minor compared to the other holidays from Mexico.

    I guess it would have been too ironic to have brought over Mexico's Independence Day (Sep 16), or even the Mexican Revolution celebration (Nov 20). I suppose they have to be proud of something, so they hold onto the Fifth of Miracle Whip as if it means something that Americanized Mexicans without any other clue of their family's culture hold onto a holiday that commemorates a Mexican general fighting off a French attack in the defense of a Mexican fort.

    Great way to celebrate your "Mexican Pride" without bringing up the point that YOUR HAPPY ASS CROSSED THE BORDER ILLEGALLY TO DO WHAT?

    ...

    NOT BE IN MEXICO!!! I give that a Carlos Mencia "Dee! Dee! Dee!"

    I could also walk into a barrio, see no decorations and talk about Dia De Los Muertos (one of my favorite holidays in the world) to see some fucking confused children. Ah, so hiding from the honored ancestors as well, to make children clueless about the Day of the Little Angels, eh? That's the problem. Those fleeing are urbanites, with little culture background or heritage, it seems. So, in essence, those fleeing to the US are mostly Mexico's spare yuppies. I simply don't give a shit about US yuppies, who honestly expects me to care about unskilled illegal yuppies from another country?

    I guess that is what all the gang warfare going on is about. They are trying to decide the official "Dia De Travesía Del Rio" date (pardon if my Spanich sucks) and can't decide for certain if it should be in 1954 to commemorate Operation Wetback (which should be one of their holidays, I would think, for having become enough of a problem as they have again today).
     
  15. Ashmo

    Ashmo Half-way Through My Half-life
    Orderite

    Jul 2, 2004
    Gotta love useless human readable URLs.

    The little bill that WOULD. Would what?

    I just can't be arsed to read the whole thread or any linked page to find out.

    If this is really just about criminalizing illegal immigration, I don't see any reason to justify protest. It's called illegal because it's supposed to violate the law and thus be a crime.

    Otherwise it would just be... "inofficial immigration" or something like that.