I Admire the Purity of The Legion's Justice.

[l0stII]

One might suggest that if crucifixion is okay for the scum of the wasteland, you might take a look at a group who committed genocide multiple times, keep both worker and sex slaves, and go on a murder-rape-pillage spree of the Mojave with brainwashed teenagers abducted as children might be good candidates for crucifixion themselves.

Would you view the Roman Republic/Empire in the same sense?

Crucifixion, decimation, rape, genocide, slavery, taking tribal children to be Roman, Total War.. These are all attributes of Roman society/warfare. The same society which provided the basis for European roads, provided clean water, law, order, stability etc

Basically, you can't logically judge a culture based on the front lines of a war zone. If we were going by your way of thinking, the Roman's should've been crucified themselves.

 

[Beardy Unixer]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the people invaded by Romans weren't overly ecstatic about the proposition.

 

[KingArthur]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the people invaded by Romans weren't overly ecstatic about the proposition.

As I said; The Gauls and Germans initially hated the very thought of Roman invasion; but after generations of being conquered, saw themselves as Roman citizens and were proud to do so.

 

[mithrap]

As I said; The Gauls and Germans initially hated the very thought of Roman invasion; but after generations of being conquered, saw themselves as Roman citizens and were proud to do so.

Caesar had plenty of Gaul auxiliaries and allied tribes though. It wasn't a united "nation" as we perceive it today. Several Gauls took the decision to support Rome before the invasion even began. Same for Celts, who called Caesar for help when they were fighting with the germanic tribes.

Caesar has made it clear he is entirely willing to have Lanius carry on after his death.

I'm probably late, but that's pretty debatable. We don't know if Lanius takes over, after Caesar's death. We just know that Caesar had a succession line ready, and we don't know the details of it. It could be Lanius, but considering how Caesar speaks about him, I doubt it.
Lucius could be his successor for all we know (it would make sense. He's one of the oldest members of the Legion, he resides with Caesar, is trusted with his secrets and is trusted enough to protect his life). And that's considering that we don't even know if Caesar has a son.

 

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

I bloody want a Legion close to my town x).

 

[Ayelander]

We don't know if Lanius takes over, after Caesar's death.

Did the part with him assuming the role of Caesar after Sallows dies not count? The man is top dog after Caesar's death. Lucius and Vulpes do nothing to oppose him, nobody in the Legion shows any sign of rebellion to Lanius being in charge. Eveybody is scared shitless of the maniac, and he has a comfortable seat as head of the Latin Raiders.

 

[mithrap]

Did the part with him assuming the role of Caesar after Sallows dies not count? The man is top dog after Caesar's death. Lucius and Vulpes do nothing to oppose him, nobody in the Legion shows any sign of rebellion to Lanius being in charge. Eveybody is scared shitless of the maniac, and he has a comfortable seat as head of the Latin Raiders.

There's no part where he assumes that role, that's my point. The scene is the exact same, wether Caesar is alive or not. He was a legate before, he is still a legate now. There's no information that would hint that he went to a higher position. Caesar's death only changes one line of dialogue, where you can taunt him (something in the spirit of "Caesar orders his goons from beyond the grave ?") but in his response, he doesn't present himself as the new big boss, he just basically shushes the courier.

 

[WeissYohji]

Think about what you posted. You're siding with a misogynistic, slave-owning, rapacious, torturous army of glorified raiders who play dress-up. Just because it's a post-apocalyptic wasteland doesn't make the Legion's atrocities okay. It NEVER did. What I state aren't Pre-War values. They're HUMAN values.

 

[l0stII]

Think about what you posted. You're siding with a misogynistic, slave-owning, rapacious, torturous army of glorified raiders who play dress-up. Just because it's a post-apocalyptic wasteland doesn't make the Legion's atrocities okay. It NEVER did. What I state aren't Pre-War values. They're HUMAN values.

Yeah, because using brainwashed men as cannon fodder is such a sexist patriarchy.

Real Rome was a patriarchy, had a slave economy, committed rape, genocide, torture, yet laid the foundations for Western civilisation. The mongols were worse, yet reconnected the East and the West through trade.

Your logic is so naive.

 

[WeissYohji]

Yeah, because using brainwashed men as cannon fodder is such a sexist patriarchy.

Real Rome was a patriarchy, had a slave economy, committed rape, genocide, torture, yet laid the foundations for Western civilisation. The mongols were worse, yet reconnected the East and the West through trade.

Your logic is so naive.

Naive my ass. The Mongols at least didn't go around imposing on the cultures they conquered, all things considered. They didn't force the Chinese, Koreans, Russians, and everyone else they conquered to live in yurts and ride horses all the time. As long as you paid your taxes and contributed to the Mongol Empire, Temujin G. Khan and his successors didn't care what culture or religion you claimed.

Don't feed me any lines about judging the past by today's morals. Past people deserve to be retroactively punished for their crimes of history. Morality is uniformitarian. However we discover something works, that's how it always worked.

 

[Cobra Commander]

s long as you paid your taxes and contributed to the Mongol Empire, Temujin G. Khan and his successors didn't care what culture or religion you claimed.

Like Caesar´s lands.

 

[WeissYohji]

And consider Arcade's dialogue after speaking to Caesar. Of all the people who could have learned from the mistakes of the past, Caesar's the worst. He just wants to throw everything off a cliff. He shoots his own Legion in the foot with that Handmaid's Tale shit of his, treating women (Read: HALF HIS POTENTIAL FIGHTING FORCE AND WORKFORCE!) as brood mares for the state. Same goes for bombing the monorail, irradiating Searchlight, and disavowing all Pre-War technology. The real Caesar would be rolling over in his grave. If he could come back from the dead, he'd want to smack Edward Sallow for not embracing the best technology of his time, and Sallow doesn't even exist!

 

[KingArthur]

You are aware that Caesar doesn’t bomb the monorail and Searchlight for shits and giggles right? He’s fighting a campaign of terror and attempting to weaken a larger fighting force the only way he can. As for retroactively punishing civilizations for their atrocities, that sounds dangerously seditious citizen. Why, if my reindoctrination module were installed, I’d eliminate that kind of thought from your head.

 

[l0stII]

And consider Arcade's dialogue after speaking to Caesar. Of all the people who could have learned from the mistakes of the past, Caesar's the worst. He just wants to throw everything off a cliff. He shoots his own Legion in the foot with that Handmaid's Tale shit of his, treating women (Read: HALF HIS POTENTIAL FIGHTING FORCE AND WORKFORCE!) as brood mares for the state. Same goes for bombing the monorail, irradiating Searchlight, and disavowing all Pre-War technology. The real Caesar would be rolling over in his grave. If he could come back from the dead, he'd want to smack Edward Sallow for not embracing the best technology of his time, and Sallow doesn't even exist!

Using women as a fighting force in a post apocalyptic world is the most moronic idea anyone could have, and is only a thing due to the modern idea that some how it's sexist not to send your women off to fight and die..

Bombing the monorail is a strategic military action, nothing special at all, same with Searchlight.

He doesn't disavow all Pre-War technology.

Just what do you think happens in war lol? Should Caesar ask the NCR to please leave?

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

Real Rome was a patriarchy, had a slave economy, committed rape, genocide, torture, yet laid the foundations for Western civilisation. The mongols were worse, yet reconnected the East and the West through trade.

Mongols were actually rather egalitarian. The trained both men and women in horseback riding and archery, and allowed people of many different cultures to participate in fighting, allowing them to be rather diverse. They never impinged on religious freedoms and while some were left as vassal nations, they were hardly forced into slavery and people within those vassal nations were generally given free range to govern themselves. Mongols also put a heavy emphasis on familial kinship, which makes them feel a whole lot more redeemable than legion who only care for the state. Mongols also had cool rules like the social construct of state sanctioned revenge killing as a way to circumvent law. I think Mongol society would have made a much better basis for a raider based faction than roman culture, but they kinda shot themselves in the foot in fallout 1 by saying the khans had anything to do with mongols.

 

[l0stII]

Mongols were actually rather egalitarian. The trained both men and women in horseback riding and archery, and allowed people of many different cultures to participate in fighting, allowing them to be rather diverse. They never impinged on religious freedoms and while some were left as vassal nations, they were hardly forced into slavery and people within those vassal nations were generally given free range to govern themselves. Mongols also put a heavy emphasis on familial kinship, which makes them feel a whole lot more redeemable than legion who only care for the state. Mongols also had cool rules like the social construct of state sanctioned revenge killing as a way to circumvent law. I think Mongol society would have made a much better basis for a raider based faction than roman culture, but they kinda shot themselves in the foot in fallout 1 by saying the khans had anything to do with mongols.

That is wrong, women in Mongol society were inferior to men and held the traditional role of child raising, meal preparation, water collection etc.
They also didn't allow other cultures to join the Mongol army, they used foreign soldiers as cannon fodder whilst adopting superior foreign tactics such as siege weaponry.. Could you please provide the source from which you got this information? As it's pretty contradictory to common information.

Legion citizens aren't slaves, this has been mentioned time and time again.

Anyway, my point was the Mongols are responsible for the deaths of millions, and that's the conservative estimate. Yet they reconnected the East and the West, so was it worth it?

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

https://www.historyonthenet.com/mongol-women-in-society

Feel free to read. Mongols were surprisingly egalitarian, so I really recommend doing reading on them that isn't from a western perspective. There are documented cases of Mongolian women married to foreign Lord's as part of an offering, only for those women to be beaten and abused, and the Mongols would come in and raid them in challenge. We're they violent? Hell yeah, but they were passionate and loving people too. They accomplished a lot of things and should be known for more than just their conquest. I think they are a lot more sympathetic than what the legion presents .

 

[l0stII]

https://www.historyonthenet.com/mongol-women-in-society

Feel free to read. Mongols were surprisingly egalitarian, so I really recommend doing reading on them that isn't from a western perspective. There are documented cases of Mongolian women married to foreign Lord's as part of an offering, only for those women to be beaten and abused, and the Mongols would come in and raid them in challenge. We're they violent? Hell yeah, but they were passionate and loving people too. They accomplished a lot of things and should be known for more than just their conquest. I think they are a lot more sympathetic than what the legion presents .

But that is a bit different to what you posted previously, which implied they enjoyed equal status and fought in the military, which is not true. Your point is literally the one I'm making. Looking at a death toll and actions in war to judge a society is silly

 

[mithrap]

https://www.historyonthenet.com/mongol-women-in-society

Feel free to read. Mongols were surprisingly egalitarian, so I really recommend doing reading on them that isn't from a western perspective. There are documented cases of Mongolian women married to foreign Lord's as part of an offering, only for those women to be beaten and abused, and the Mongols would come in and raid them in challenge. We're they violent? Hell yeah, but they were passionate and loving people too. They accomplished a lot of things and should be known for more than just their conquest. I think they are a lot more sympathetic than what the legion presents .

Genghis Khan was a meritocrat indeed. But Genghis Khan is not the mongol society as a whole, which has been over romanticized since the centuries.
A huge part of their economy was based on slavery. European women could be bought for quite a big price as sex slaves at the slave markets of Novgorod. They brought the bubonic plague (the famous "black death") which provoked an actual apocalypse on PURPOSE. They weaponized the plague by launching infected bodies in the ports of Crimea, where they knew ships would flee and infect the rest of Europe.
When the Khwarezmid Empire refused his "egalitarian terms", the entire empire was literally erased, its four million inhabitants reduced to mounds of skeletons.

 

[SiriusShenanigans]

There were several warrior queens and princesses in mongolian armies, and they even had leaders. Khutulun is often referenced as one of the fiercest female women in human history. Mongols definitely had women in their armies, especially as horsemanship and archery were taught to both genders, and that was the biggest factor of mongolian shock tactics.
http://badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi?id=822456431891

Did they massacre the Khwarezmid Empire and remove their entire existence from history? Yeah. They are are where we get the expression "Don't shoot the messenger." Genghis had sent in a caravan to open up trade with this kingdom saying they wanted to have them join his empire. Had he only refused, they might still have survived as slave or in some other degree of history. Instead, they were mercilessly massacred to every last soul. Why? They murdered that entire caravan in challenge of Genghis Khan. I'm not gonna say that massacring people is a nice foreign policy, but they were kicking sand in the face of a dragon.

As for the bubonic plague, I get the idea that it would have been inevitable that it spread to the west eventually with terrible results. I don't get the idea that they intentionally were trying to spread plague though. The mongol's were immune to it, as many people in the asiatic world were, since they had grown up around its sources and developed immunities. Plague warfare isn't really one of Genghis Khan's usual tactics, but psychological warfare is. I believe the primary reason for throwing bodies was to demoralize enemies who were stuck in the castle the were attacking. Causing one of the worst plague epidemics was kind of just a side effect. It would have happened anyway as the east and west started to mingle more throughout history.

I feel like you can't ignore things like Pax Mongolica or the reinforcement of the silk road, the distribution of technologies, or religious freedom that mongolians brought. They even would accept local cultures and aspects of religion, and let people govern themselves, which pretty much meant for the most part if you said you allied with them, they would leave you alone. It wouldn't really affect your life much. Genghis also banned things like torture. They did execute people rather gruesomely, but they didn't torture.

I just think the Khans in fallout, despite being "based" on Mongolian wartribes, don't really take advantage of how cool mongols were, and I just feel I would have liked a more mongolian based antithesis to face the NCR than what we got in the Legion.