Impressions thread for negative impressions

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by 3rdRate, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. Eyenixon

    Eyenixon Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 11, 2008
    You are aware that back when it was impossible to give an RPG an engrossing story because every bit of dialog used up precious bytes RPGs were practically all combat?

    Ultima, Wizardry, you name it, the biggest RPGs of the industry that began it all were all combat based. An advanced battle system is the root of the genre, as it always was.

    EDIT: Screw choice and consequence, it's a tack on feature, it wasn't even truly a part of the genre until Ultima IV was released and that was far into the genre's existence.
     
  2. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    91
    Oct 29, 2008

    An action adventure game or a shooter or a fighting game has stats just like a "cprg", they're just different.
    Eye of the Beholder is a party strategy game, Diablo a hack and slash game, neither are rpgs nor have at least a decent amount of rpg elemets (it took Fallout 1 to reach that stage).
     
  3. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    91
    Oct 29, 2008

    Ultima, Wizardry are dungeon crawling strategies witch took the mathematics from PnP RPGs with a gamemaster, but but forgot about the role playing elements. Actually they didn't forget, they where limited.

    Thus the irony of the so called "rpg" genre in witch both the "crpg" and "jrpg" branches produced games designated as rpgs but witch lacked the rpgs elements.

    Fallout was probably the first to fully insert a good/decent amount or role playing elements in a videogame.
    But it wasn't a true rpg at heart, it was still a turned based strategy, thought to its credit not a party turned based strategy like the dungeon crawlers of the 80s.

    Choice and consequence, freedom and immersion, flexibility is what a true rpg was intended to be. The goal of initial PnP RPGs witch truly NEVER materialized in the binary world.
    There's no such thing as a true rpg outside PnP with gamemaster rpgs.
    Videogames designated as rpgs are ultimately "frauds", as the technology for a true rpg doesn't exist yet.
    Even if if did, many would prefer either the anime fests witch are japanese "rps" strategies/adventures or the mathematic geek fests witch are the (old) "crpgs"/strategies-crawlers, both sides wrongly believing that's what an "rpg" should be.
     
  4. goobyman

    goobyman First time out of the vault

    28
    May 28, 2004
    Exactly... I am so depressed at this moment in time. I just finished the game... and realize that all my hoping, all this waiting, all this anticipation... all in vane. What a crap game. *sigh* Oh... did you do Oasis? That pissed me off... what a craptasictly crappy piece of crap.


    You hit this one on the head my friend, and I appreciate not having to type it all out myself.
     
  5. Shiftfallout

    Shiftfallout First time out of the vault

    2
    Nov 10, 2008
    I wonder how many realized that Fallout 3 more about PLAYER SKILL than CHARACTER SKILL. That should have been the first indication.

    Fallout 1-2 were all about Character Skill. It was an RPG after all.
     
  6. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    May 18, 2003
    What technology would that be, pray?
     
  7. Sorrow

    Sorrow So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Feb 9, 2006
    Probably an AI as a gamemaster.
    Anyway, gamemasters can be pretty limited too :D .
     
  8. deadsanta

    deadsanta First time out of the vault

    59
    Sep 5, 2008
    As opposed to seven-tenths of the quests in this game being senseless kill/fetch quests (stat from ass, but I bet it's as accurate as your "half")? It's a matter of degree, really, and FOO has fewer NPCs, fewer quests, fewer choices. Sure, it's possible to "do more with less", but the typical outcome in game design is almost always "do less with less". This game did less with less.


    I have to disagree again. I cannot "role play" a smarter person than I actually am unless those elements are checked against some figure that characters in the story will respond to, play along with. That holds for combat too, because unless there is some filter between myself and the game (stats, character sheet, whatever), then combat is just about how good my twitch response is, my joystick-eye coordination is, and we're back to fps-land at that point.
     
  9. Eyenixon

    Eyenixon Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 11, 2008
    Strategy my ass, as a PC game RPGs are their own individual creation. It is impossible for them to work as they did in a tabletop format and thus they took on their own personality.
    That is a compromise that is widely accepted, if it was not possible to maintain the same level of involvement then the game's developer would see to it that the video game incarnation had a suitable amount of the old formula in order to develop the roots of the genre.

    You can't put a PnP game into a videogame as it is, no one meant for it to be that way, they attempted to transfer it of course, but in the assumption that the DM was an unnecessary package for the digital version. The entire point of PC RPGs is to throw a player into a world without an individual calling all the shots, rather it's done by a fair and unbiased system that just dictates the content of the world without having a third party input.

    Besides, you're telling me most PnP games were anything other than bashing monsters with the occasional douche bag DM? That's all they were, the player involvement made the experience, but its transition merely lost the element of additional players.
    A cRPG is different from a PnP RPG, don't tell me about the roots of the genre beyond its inception as a digital alternative, because that's merely the inspiration, not the definable roots. The genre on the PC took on a far different role than the PnP one, that argument is irrelevant.

    Choice and consequence was always arbitrary for the videogame equivalent of RPGs. If you want to draw parallels between the ultimate creation of PnP games and the emergence of their digital equivalent, go ahead, but that touches upon philosophical musings, not technical, and as far as this genre goes, it's a fact that the PC RPG's roots came from a highly developed combat system.
     
  10. Roflcore

    Roflcore Mildly Dipped

    579
    Nov 2, 2008
    and in f3 its 100% silly fetch/kill quests, great improvement! :lol:
     
  11. flyme

    flyme First time out of the vault

    13
    Nov 10, 2008
    i sympathize wholeheartedly with all the points in the OP. it just sucks, that you except a fallout game, and get this oblivion like rehash/mod

    are the older player so outnumbered that the franchise can be so easily bastardized?

    it's an okay game if you have no idea what it's supposed to represent, but anyway.. 6/10, and all those arguments about grow up graphicz evolves/isometric is prehistoric/turn based FAILz/etc well they've all been proven to be wrong with countless examples of successful games that utilizes those old school proven-to-be-true game formulas

    not to say a FPP or a TPP FO3 wouldn't of worked, because they have and they can work as a good RPG, but bethesda wasn't able to do it.

    btw, i've seen FOO used a few times on these boards, instead of FO3. what is FOO supposed to mean?
     
  12. Barbalute

    Barbalute First time out of the vault

    81
    Nov 6, 2008
    Fallout Oblivion, I think.

    I'd still like to hear from the OP why he played through the entire game if he thought it was such a massive waste of time and it pained him every moment he played.
     
  13. [ION]Dictator

    [ION]Dictator First time out of the vault

    5
    Nov 9, 2008
    Because he paid for it, like most of us. He waited so long that he wanted to FREEKING finish the game, Like I did to.

    To be honest, at first I didn't hate it. Ok I found the story somewhat weak and the vault somewhat small, but Ok It was 10 years since F2 and nobody from the original team was on the new team. As I played along I had more trouble finding will to keep playing and exploring. At one point I had enough and rushed to the end of the game in the hope it would turn better, but offcourse it didn't.

    @Shiftfallout
    You're right, the only point I needed the CHARACTER SKILL is form speech (but if I'd pisted them off they would die, so no problem there) and when using VATS.

    @Sorrow
    You're also right, but looking at GTA4, it's still mostly space but it proves that you could make big towns (DC was about half the size, well at least where you could get as the player).

    Still on subject GTA4, they put almost all of the work in the city, to make it as real as possible. Then were dit Bethesda put all the work, in trying and not succeeding in coppying a convincing Fallout world. I can see that most of the art has been updated, but it now looks more like how we saw the 50's and then fastforward to the future instead of how the 50's looked at the future and fastworard. Objects look to easy to be used, in F1/2 things were not easy to use or had a lot of useless parts on it (at least, this is how I view most of the objects).

    And whats up with the Vault door and the fact that 13/15 had a lot more of those useless terminals on very wall. That the concrete was light grey and not dark grey. Or that Mister Handy went on a diet and that ghouls were stiff and had a bad posture and proberbly very bad joints.

    I'm having a really hard time trying to make it feel like a Fallout.
    Oke it's a 50's styled appoctaliptic 23 century world, but did Bethesda really think that would suffice, that that was what Fallout really was. Didn't they play the game, or did someone said "Well 95% of the crew who played the game didn't think my vision captured Fallout, well F you. I'm the Boss and I'm making this game and you're only helping me. Don't like it, then get of my team".
     
  14. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    91
    Oct 29, 2008


    The tabletop wargame-ruleset/format isn't the point/defining feature of a true RPG, as the feeling of immersion, the flexibility and the decisions/consequences the player is called to make.

    The wargame-ruleset/format preceded Dave Arneson's and E. Gary Gygax's Dungeons & Dragons.

    D&D was about far more than stats and turn-based battles -- it was about characters, choices, and stories; it was about experiencing fantastical adventures through a brand-new kind of collaborative, improvisational storytelling. Players became at the same time script-writers and actors of their own roles; whereas a reader of a book or a viewer of a movie always remained a passive observer, a player at a D&D game was constantly called upon to make choices that propelled the action. Compared to the role-playing dimension of D&D, the stats and battles were only minor aspects.

    Or at least they were supposed to be. Since TSR's writers and most of their initial customers came from a wargaming background, official D&D modules (i.e. ready-made adventures) tended to focus on dungeon crawling and excessively time-consuming combat.

    The point of RPGs was never the tedious stat-recording and incessant battles -- indeed, the more creative gamemasters quickly discovered that all the calculations and dice-rolling often got in the way of the story, and acted accordingly to minimize it.

    Yet from the very beginning of computer role-playing games (CRPGs) it was clear that the stat-recording and incessant battles were the only things that could possibly survive the transition to the electronic medium, and that nothing short of the invention of human-level artificial intelligence could change that. Because what could possibly be left of the idea of role-playing without an intelligent gamemaster to breathe life into the world surrounding the players? What chance would the players have to make decisions and act them out -- in other words, to role-play -- if they were denied the ability to express themselves, and if their actions were limited to inventory-management, battle tactics, and wandering around static maps? The quality of the RPG experience had from the very first depended on the ability, talent and dedication of the gamemaster, and some dumb computer program was indeed a pitiful substitute for a Gary Gygax or an Ed Greenwood.

    All this was of course instantly recognized by the pioneers of CRPGs, who, as programmers, were well aware of the limitations of the primitive software engineering techniques available to them.

    And so they focused on the stats and battles.

    But since early D&D modules themselves consisted of little more besides dungeon crawling, the pioneers of CRPGs could at least claim that their games managed to capture to a degree the spirit of those early modules. The computer gaming world -- such as it was at the time -- could hardly be blamed for praising their efforts.

    Unfortunately, those early efforts would end up setting the tone for all subsequent ones.

    Before long, CRPGs had become something of a joke in the role-playing community, whereas in computer gaming circles the term 'RPG' had been debased to a euphemism for a genre that contained a varying mixture of strategy, action, and adventure elements -- everything, that is to say, except role-playing. That's because Ultima, Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder, FF and Co all had as much role playing as Super Mario or Duck Hunt.

    CRPG-wRPGs and jRPGs are "different" because ultimately they're not true/real RPGs, though they may have some RPG elemets (little/less so in jRPGs).
     
  15. Kashrlyyk

    Kashrlyyk It Wandered In From the Wastes

    172
    Oct 18, 2004
    Hope .... Hope dies last.
     
  16. Sorrow

    Sorrow So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Feb 9, 2006
    I meant that Bethesda could simply make a small town in 1:1 scale - it could easily be bigger in game than the Hub was in Fo1. Same with the Vaults.
     
  17. schatzi

    schatzi First time out of the vault

    21
    Nov 24, 2004
    FOO: let me take a wild guess here :D fallout oblivion?
     
  18. cratchety ol joe

    cratchety ol joe Mildly Dipped

    500
    Sep 2, 2008
    Just my take on the FOO thing.. why not FOb ? being that we were all Fobbed off (English phrase sorry if it doesn't translate..)

    Sigh, soo many new posts but I'm becoming quite jaded, we are all beginning to sound like a broken record (i.e. we keep ranting about how X feature of FO3 is shite) and I understand this is borne of pain and suffering and perhaps some collective feeling of "why did they kill the game we all love" but at the same time I cant help but reason that we are adults (for the most part) surely we can do better than sit and cry together?

    albeit, I did bring a packet of whine and a sobbing hanky to the forums today...
     
  19. Sorrow

    Sorrow So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Feb 9, 2006
    Personally, I'm getting tired of seeing Fallout 3 everywhere.
     
  20. Pope Viper

    Pope Viper This ghoul has seen it all
    Orderite

    Dec 9, 2003
    I just finished it myself.


    Bethesda. Bethesda never changes.

    Instead of sinking money into graphics, they need to sink money into hiring talented writers.