My two cents: How bethesda should unfuck itself.

Discussion in 'Future Fallout Game Discussion' started by PsychoSniper, Apr 8, 2024.

  1. PsychoSniper

    PsychoSniper So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Jun 27, 2003
    They need to pick a new area, midwest or texas, and make a *huge*worldsace of connected maps, with a master terrain map based off of irl topography

    For each major population center, have a map area similar in size to new vegas or Fallout 4, so you have a decent area to explore, and fill in the empty space with proceduraly generated content set to fit in the terrain map, so if you're not fast traveling it takes time to travel down the rosd and feels like you actually went somewhere.

    From there, add in some scatrered content, small but dead prewar towns, small but sparsely settled prewsr towns, etc, and assign some map grids to random encounters at game start, both the traditional Fallout wacky random encounter, and just plain rare stuff like a prewar store that hasnt been touched by scavers, randomize where stuff is so each game is a new experience, and set aside some parts of the map, or edges of the map, for DLCs that add more to the total worldspace area.

    Set a world that actually makes sense, from locations settled to supply routes, and from there build the plot of the game.

    As for the plot, lets return to basics.
    You live in a control vault, one that has remained untouched, and its going to stsrt getting overpopulated within a generation so the overseer has decided its time to explore the surface world.

    Act 0: opening act. Skippsble intro, door opens and lets you out into a cave secyred by vault security. If you dont skip it, you help vault security clear out rats, radroaches, and other low level stuff, have dialoughe between NPCs about setting up descrete fortifications inside the cave so not to draw attention from outside.
    Act 1: Explore. Your pipboy has a number of prewar locations marked, you need to visit them. Most are rubble, some can be a source of salvage, and a few may be populated
    Act 2: expand. As you explore during act 1, and as time passed, the vault starts fortifying the vaults entry cave and the surface around it, and once you finish exploring the first set of locations the overseer will ask you about a few of the settlements at those locations, and depending on player interaction you may escort some vault diplomatic teams. Lots of the quests set to be fairly open ended, just finding resources to salvage.
    Act 3: building. The vaults surface dwellings start to expand and take shape, dealing with raiders, etc.
    After act 3, the towns built up, you start traveling further abroad and get into major quests, by this point you've gotten kitted out fairly well and have kitted your party if you chose to have one.

    Now, this gives you a solid foundation to build on for future releases.
    Focus on DLCs, DLCs add questlines and add features and sometimes changes to existing worldspaces, and because its being built within an existing framework it can be made much faster, with at least one major DLC a year.
     
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  2. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    The above summarizes the general advice posted on the Bethesda forums by the Fallout fans, prior to, and following the release of FO3; mid 2007-09.
    (Especially the filling of the empty space with proceduraly generated content).

    The only thing they listened to (and used it as if their own idea) was the suggested change to the power armor as later seen in FO4.

    *Even the Jones Soda deal was fan suggested years before...They haven't got an original [non-detrimental] idea between them all in their collective hive-mind; which I've always suspected to play out in conference probably like the Brawndo argument. :(
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2024
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  3. Risewild

    Risewild Antediluvian as Feck
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    It wouldn't work on consoles. And Bethesda games make tons of profit on consoles. :deal:
     
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  4. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    Also... Mr. Howard himself recounted cutting about half of the game-world out of the final release.

    Myself, I would have liked to see a procedural overland map akin to Fallout 1 & 2 —in a style reminiscent of Skyrim; designed for the same purpose as the original games. Such a system would have auto generated the encounter area based upon the terrain underfoot at the time of the encounter.

     
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  5. TheKingofVault14

    TheKingofVault14 Fallout Fan For Life!

    651
    Jul 5, 2022
    Is it even possible for Bethesda to improve!? Because at this point it's high unlikely, almost to the point of being impossible. At this rate your idea @PsychoSniper could work with ANY other developer that isn't Bethesda! Because if we're up to them, HA! I can't wait to see yet another train wreckage from good ol Bugthesda.

    :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
     
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  6. Risewild

    Risewild Antediluvian as Feck
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Judging by their track record... No.

    Starfield is the Bethesda "original" PC game (not a different version of the same game like the several Skyrim versions) with lower player ratings on Metacritic, Fallout 4 is the second lowest, so the trend seems to be that Bethesda games have been getting lower ratings the newer they are.

    Looking at Metacritic, Bethesda's PC games are topped with Morrowind, after that, each newer game has a lower player rating. The only exception is Fallout 3 with 0.1 higher than Oblivion, Oldrim (Skyrim) has the same rating as Fallout 3 GOTY but 0.1 lower than Original Fallout 3.

    Here's the chronological order of the player ratings on Bethesda's games (PC versions):
    Daggerfall - 8.2
    Morrowind - 8.8 (Highest rating)
    Morrowind GOTY - 8.8 (Highest rating)
    Oblivion - 8.4
    Fallout 3 - 8.5 (0.1 higher than Oblivion)
    Fallout 3 GOTY - 8.4
    Oldrim - 8.4
    Fallout 4 - 5.7
    Skyrim SE - 7.0
    Skyrim AE - 3.3
    Starfield - 5.6

    Players are also sick of Skyrim being resold so each "new" version gets lower ratings than the previous one.

    Here's the same chronological order containing only the original released versions (no GOTY and no Skyrim re-releases):
    Daggerfall - 8.2
    Morrowind - 8.8 (Highest rating)
    Oblivion - 8.4
    Fallout 3 - 8.5 (0.1 higher than Oblivion)
    Oldrim - 8.4
    Fallout 4 - 5.7
    Starfield - 5.6

    Notice the difference in rating after Oldrim... Bethesda does not learn at all, and why would they? Even Starfield got them millions of dollars of profit, and will still continue to do so for several more years.:shrug:
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2024
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  7. Norzan

    Norzan So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Apr 7, 2017
    At this point i don't want Bethesda to improve, i want them to go away. Just go away, you have destroyed enough of the genre with your horrendous over-simplification, let other companies that actually give a shit take the rpg genre into the future.
     
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  8. PaxVenire

    PaxVenire Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    841
    Oct 29, 2020
    Larian is doing well with the genre.
     
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  9. Morgan_

    Morgan_ Duckerz

    Jul 3, 2020
    They really do need to start using procedural generation. On top of that the studio needs to hire a big team like how Rockstar does. Less bugs and less wait time. Might even be able to update their aging engine then.
     
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  10. Baron of Arizona

    Baron of Arizona First time out of the vault

    53
    Jul 6, 2022
    Why even care? Last good Fallout was more then a decade ago. There are many other good RPGs now- Colony ship, underrail, wasteland 2 and 3, Atom RPG, if you want Fallout that badly there are Nevada, Sonora and Ressurection. Bethesda would sooner fall apart then give us good Fallout and it doesn't seem that other devs would get the chance.
     
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  11. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    1/10 no. pre built worlds is all they have left they get rid of that there really will be nothing left
     
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  12. Norzan

    Norzan So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Apr 7, 2017
    Bigger team isn't gonna do shit because all the problems with Bethesda are bad design choices. In fact, Starfield is probably the most polished game they ever released, but the game still sucks.
     
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  13. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    I wouldn't mind blowing up the terrain with procedurally generated wasteland to get the map size to realistic proportions. Handcrafted locations should be interspersed, and everything of note needs to be made by hand, but the wasteland itself has no meaning but provide a sense of scale, it might as well be procedurally generated. Start with a height map, add biome markers, and a road map, let the terrain be generated. Like Fallout 1 and 2 where you could get down to a randomly generated map area wherever you want, there just wouldn't be anything there.
    My idea would be something similar to Daggerfall:
    Handcrafted towns and "dungeons" and realistically proportioned space in between. You can walk on foot between places, but it's kinda shit because it's really, really far. Fast travel should be done by using an overworld map and the player (party) moving over it like Fallout 1/2, and in random encounters the player party gets down to the area of the random encounter and has to solve it. Fight or flee or investigate, only after suitable solution one can go back to the world map. For example, fleeing requires you to get away from the hostiles far enough unnoticed, or just far enough with a vehicle. This way one can also explore the world map like Fallout 1/2, unlike Daggerfall where all locations are already known. Any world travel always runs the risk of random encounters like hostiles just like the classics. Nothing of note would be randomly generated, it's just a tool used by the devs to save design time to create a suitably large map purely for the sake of giving a sense of scale.
    Alternatively, do away with all the space between important locations and have the player party be transported to the world map once they move far away from a location just like in the classics. That way the sense of scale is never actually invoked at all.
     
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  14. Baron of Arizona

    Baron of Arizona First time out of the vault

    53
    Jul 6, 2022
    Why make realistic proportions if they will be filed with filler content? Just make a few big/average size maps. I didn't like Outer Worlds, but they had the right idea. I think RPGs should try new ways designing their maps in general. I like how Gothic 2 map changes as the plot moves forward, chapters like in Witcher 2 would be great too, gives you strong feeling of adventure and progression, also I never saw in any other game where players choice drastically change act 2 and significantly affects act 3 of the game (New Vegas main quest is probably the closest thing to it). Now all we get is big open world with barely anything in it.
     
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  15. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Just for the feel. Give a sense of scale and vastness.
     
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  16. Morgan_

    Morgan_ Duckerz

    Jul 3, 2020
    I mean yeah pretty much. Especially with all the team lead and head writting people that's left and been replaced by Emil or god knows who.

    They had proc gen back then? Didn't even know. I'd imagine it wasn't very good at the time?
     
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  17. Iprovidelittlepianos

    Iprovidelittlepianos Vault Senior Citizen

    May 12, 2020
    Ever heard of Daggerfall?
     
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  18. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    ... Or Diablo.

    For that matter even Fallout —though it's by no means a great example. In Fallout 1 it presents a generic (and mostly static) encounter zone that matched whatever the overland terrain that was under foot at the time.

    map2.gif

    Arcanum had a realtime map that (so I have read) took around 48 actual player hours to cross it from coast to coast, map screen by map screen.... but it also allowed Fallout style overland travel.

    Bethesda could have done any of that with FO3 had they wanted it; even included a car had they wished.

    bad_idea.jpg

    Because it would match the series' intent. The map would not be meant to explore it 1:1 in FPP (outside of principle locations, random, and special encounters), but the system could have generated a plausible encounter zone for any event on the world map. The fact that it could technically be walked end to end would be just a side effect of the design—not a gaming feature*. There is no point to exploring a salt-flat in realtime FPP; the walk from the Brotherhood bunker to Vault 13 takes two weeks and there is little to nothing out there—there shouldn't BE anything out there aside from very occasional oddities.

    ________________
    *Wasteland 2 actually does this ~sort of.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2024
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  19. Morgan_

    Morgan_ Duckerz

    Jul 3, 2020
    Oh wait, yeah. I played that for a few hours. So it was just bad at the time was the holdup.

    @Gizmojunk I feel like this will both annoy and interest you at the same time:

     
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  20. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Forgot about this earlier, but yeah, I fully agree on the chapter structure of Gothic and Witcher with significant map changes going on between chapters. It might go a bit against the open world ethos of Bethesda, but maybe embracing a more strict chapter structure would do them good in terms of writing a cohesive story for the main quest. They should also start having actual writers on their teams and not let the quest and level designers write everything. At least have some lead writer who manages the coherence of the main story...
    New Vegas had a pretty multistranded story compared to the classics, more like a story where the player moves a grander story along instead of the main story being an integral, personal quest for them. Intuitively I want to say that a more overt chapter structure isn't good for that, actually I think it could also work well. Given that the main story is about power struggles and the Legion moving in, changing the map a few times at crucial story points regardless of how you got there would be really cool. Give a sense of urgency and progression instead of static telling that something happened without showing much.
     
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