NFL 2009

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by UniversalWolf, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Me neither. I'm kinda hoping it does, but hell, it'd be cool if he takes them to the SuperBowl too. I'll have to watch the entire post-season on mute due to commentators, but it'll still be cool.

    They've played 4 teams with winning records at the time of the matchup, but yeah, competition hasn't been that stiff.

    I don't think sportshypers are referring to the Pats as "team of the decades" much. Perhaps the 18-1 team of two years back, but this team is getting very little hype by itself. Which is good for you guys.

    Also, you guys are making Ryan cry

    Yeah, they dumped most of their D holdovers before the season too. It's a real destroy-and-rebuild-from-the-ground-up.

    I do wonder about Raheem Morris. Especially since the "brilliant solution" for the Jim Bates issue is for Morris to take over as DC. I'm not sure that's going to work, and I don't know how precarious that'll make his position in the team.
     
  2. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Yeah in fairness, I think the Pats have played only 2 (Indy, Denver) teams with winning records ATM, and lost both due to late defensive fuckups.

    They don't deserve any yet, only one game lead over Miami, and are going to need a full 16 games to hit stride. Then the real fun starts. Lots of youngins' on D, they need the experience.
    I want the Pats pissed off and hungry for the playoffs. They could mount a nice, deep run this year.

    December is when BB really starts to separate himself from the herd.

    Well, Revis essentially shutdown Moss again, and he did on that play too, so not sure why their panties are in a bunch. All is fair in Pats/Jets.
    I'm disappointed Rex has caved so soon already, it looked like he was going to add some spice to the rivalry, and he really came out swinging, but lately he's seemed so bewildered and defeated. Doesn't bode well for his future. Peaked in week 3.
    He is truly his father - peerless, innovative D coordinator, but a tactless, headstrong HC.

    And his act is already wearing thin in NYC, they love the swagger when you back it up, but you can't keep talking about how good you are, how good your D is, when you keep losing to mid-level competition week after week.

    Sanchez is teetering on the brink of bust-hood too. If he could keep his turnovers down to only 3 or 4 a game, this team is in all their games.
    Jets have the best O-line money can buy, one of the best running games in the league and pretty servicable WRs, stout Defense on the other side too. Sanchez has the support, but man, his INTs are really bad. He looked out of his league against the Pats.

    Yeah he's another guy that been anointed as the chosen one, but I don't know what he's ever accomplished to warrant that. He's supposed to be an upgrade from Gruden?
     
  3. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Part of it depends on how many of these guys still have Tampa 2 in their system, which is a decent amount but not great given the rejuvenating of the defense this offseason.

    The big thing, though, is that Bates is gone. It isn't just using a system for which he doesn't have the players, he also missed a lot of seemingly basic defensive problems. Steve White (ex Bucs DE) has a great football blog where he goes into a lot of Bucs defensive plays, pretty in-depth and a good read, and the impression I get from reading his blogs (and watching Bucs games with that in mind) is that it's more the coach's problem than anything else.

    Well, Morris was going to be promoted to DC initially in the offseason, until they fired Gruden and promoted him to HC. He's had several coaching positions on defense, and was DC at Kansas State (when Freeman was there) too. So he should have the skills to do it.
    But being head coach, doing all the playcalling and having all the coordinator duties is a lot of work for one person. It didn't exactly work well for the Redskins this year.

    I keep hearing this, but really, you think that professional athletes have a slacker attitude when a contract renewal isn't on the line, even though they could (and do) get cut any other year as well?

    Eh...not really. He's there to be the coach of the future and build up a team for the future, which is something Gruden never could. Gruden might be the better playcaller/designer, Raheem Morris and Mark Dominik are supposed to be better at building a franchise.

    That may just be a question of experience, though. If the INTs is all they have to worry about with him, that's pretty good.
     
  4. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    You still get paid if you get cut. :) Joey Galloway is collecting a check from the Patriots right now, lost his job to a rookie who never played WR before in his life.
    I do think this happens, not always, it certainly depends on the character of the guy.

    Anytime somebody's up for a contract or free agency, they are going to put in their best work. Your most recent body of work is what your contract negotiations will be based on.
    I think it's fair to question their motivation and drive after they get served up with their 1st contract after the draft, which is basically your big payday in the NFL, you're set for life. Pro sports is littered with dudes that don't live up to the potential that their contracts were initially based on.
    Thank goodness the NFL has a hard cap and incentive-laden contracts, because the wide open market in other pro-sports is the catalyst for some insane money, that often-times doesn't come with the commensurate performance.

    I don't think Wilfork is that kind of dude, he's a trooper, he could've held out (surefire way to get yourself traded from the Pats). But the Pats have already put the wheels in motion to secure Wilfork long term by liquidating Richard Seymour. They are doing a lot of shifting to accommodate him and keep him around, I'm just hoping it's all worth it.

    Great, but based on what? What'd he do at KSU? College program building is vastly different from the pros. Not many guys have crossover success in both arenas - look at Lou Holtz, Steve Spurrier, Pete Carroll. Legendary NCAA coaches, incredible NFL disasters.
    And Raheem Morris, he's not one of those dudes, he's younger than most of his players I'd reckon.

    I'm not saying he can't succeed, but like I asked about Mike McCarthy before, these guys aren't exactly household names or known commodities. I'm trying to see what they bring to the table.

    It's completely an issue of experience. College experience. Kid came out too soon.
     
  5. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Sure, but the way the contracts are structured guarantees that you'll get a lot more if you do your best work always.

    Well, sure. But I don't think people with that kind of attitude make it to a contract extension in the NFL in the first place. This is an extremely competitive world we're talking about. You don't get anywhere unless you are talented and put in a lot of work. Only the extremely talented can get away with laziness.

    So?
    I mean, the money isn't going to be a problem. If someone can afford to pay that amount of money for someone in a competitive environment, is it really not a fair price for that person? They're paying for that person, but effectively they're paying for the chance that he'll continue to be that person.

    The European football leagues are the best example of such a system, and while they're far from perfect they work pretty well. Yes, the money amounts seem absurd, but apparently teams do still make a profit.

    At the same time, I think that does require a completely different structure from what the NFL brings to the table. Teams can't fail and drop to lower leagues so there's not a real drive to compete at the bottom of the table after the season is underway, there's only a small amount of teams to which players can go, meaning poor players with great potential fizzle out, and there's no real in-house education: the development of players happens mostly at high-school and college level, completely separate from normal teams, and the draft forces high prices for great talent. Compare to European football teams, where all teams have their own youth training facilities and develop the player along the way. They're invested in a player, and at the same time he doesn't cost them that much since he's been around since he was 12.

    Oh, I completely agree. 'Rah' hasn't shown anything so far or in the past that would lead me or anyone outside his teams to believe he could be a franchise coach of the future. I'm just saying, you shouldn't (and can't) expect him to be better than Gruden, because that's not really what he's there for now.

    And they started him too soon.
     
  6. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    What I find intruiging, is that you've now got this group of young QBs - Vick, V. Young, Matt Leinart, JaMarcus Russell, maybe even Brady Quinn.
    Guys who have all the physical gifts and talent in the world, Heismans, National Champioships, but a total lack of brains/motivation/maturity. (Cutler has some maturity issues too, but at least he seems to give a shit).

    Those guys (actually Vince Young may finally be waking up) are lazy and do try to get by on talent alone. Vick has admitted as much. They are trying to coast on natural ability alone. Which works against Cal Poly Tech, or Western Michigan, but not in the NFL, you can't get away with that.

    Nobody can dispute their physical gifts. (Leinart is a bit different because he's more of a tradtional pocket passer - but plagued by same maturity issues).
    Vince Young played the most amazing 'big game' I've ever seen in my life when he lit USC up in the Nat'l Champ game. Dude put up almost 500 yards of total offense himself. 200+rushing 200+ passing, 3 TDs. He beat one of the best teams of all time, on the biggest stage, against the clock, on pure talent. He did it all with legs and heart. (Seriously, go youtube: vince young rose bowl. Sick assemblage of future NFL talent on both sides of that game.)
    Not going to get you far enough in the NFL. Manning and Brady have none of those gifts, but they probably put more study in in the course of week then Jamarcus Russell has his whole career.

    At least the Titans finally woke up and just run the option now.
    A HS QB couldn't fuck that up, only one read to make and it exploits Young's athleticism. And why not? Why do they think they can tranform these guys into pure pocket passers. I don't know what NFL teams are thinking when the play these guys straight, because they never, ever were traditional, pocket QBs.

    Why does Mike Vick keep insisting he's not a gimick, that he should be a starter?

    Well, I don't know about soccer, but I know Yankees/Red Sox to a degree. The Yankees have bottomless coffers, the Red Sox aren't shabby either, and they pretty much go after the same free agents every year, and through a bidding war inflate the salaries to sickening heights.

    Sometimes one party isn't even really interested in a particular player, the Sox will always throw out insincere offers just to drive the Yanks to outbid them and thus waste money. They don't always care so much about the player as they do getting the other team to over-pay. The Yankees then have to acquiesce because they can't lose the player, and also lose him to a division rival. Of course these players are all good, but what kind of return do you get from them? Sometimes the system can push salaries higher than they really deserve to be.

    You can't really play American football properly at age 12. Sometimes even HS football only vaguely resembles the NFL. Football takes a lot of skill and knowledge and physical attributes to play. Unlike I think Basketball or Soccer where you can pick the game up quickly and play around with a couple friends pretty much anytime, anywhere.
    Football is so organized and specialized, it can never have that deep a developmental system, because it really can't even be played properly at that early an age.

    I know, but I never heard of Mike Tomlin before either, but the first time I saw that dude's eyes and heard him speak, I thought "yeah that's a man I'd go to war for".
     
  7. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Vick has probably woken up, too. And yes, they're perfect examples of natural talent not being enough to get there.
    Well, maybe he isn't, but it's kind of tough to be a starter when you have McNabb ahead of you.

    I don't get how else you determine what they deserve to be other than the market forces that you partially describe.

    Also, the point is that teams don't have an unlimited amount of money. They simply don't. When people talk about a capless league they like to pretend that this is the case, but it's just not how it works. These companies cannot live long-term solely on huge injections of capital, as that dries up.

    Look at European football, there about a dozen top-flight clubs who all spend a lot of money. Yet every year some nobody team with a much smaller budget manages to get very far, sometimes winning. And the teams that are most infamous for spending a ton of money (Real Madrid, Chelsea and now Manchester City) haven't won the Champions League in years.

    Now, there's less fluctuation in the status of teams from year-to-year than there is in the NFL, but it isn't even close to the total domination that you see in baseball.

    Why not? Why couldn't the development players now go through (HS-College-NFL) happen within the context of a professional team? They don't need to learn to play the full game in high school, but NFL teams have to be capable of bringing some expertise to the table in training those kids.

    But again, I don't think the structure of the NFL now (32 teams, and that's it) is suited for that. There just aren't enough alternative, smaller teams.

    Morris comes across as much more of a rookie, himself. He's just 32, younger than several of his players. But that doesn't mean he can't get these guys to play.
     
  8. UniversalWolf

    UniversalWolf eaten by a grue.

    Aug 28, 2005
    It's funny how WRs hit the wall. You never know when it's going to happen, but when it does it happens quick. Galloway made it to 37, but some guys hit the wall at 32.
     
  9. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    The more I see of Jared Allen, the more I like him, and I always hated the bastich.

    I mean, he's an asshole, obviously, but he kind of made an art out of being an asshole. Besides, his attitude seems the right one for a pass rusher. Kind of dude I'd love if he were on my team.

    Jared Allen mic'd up at Seahawks-Vikings is classic material. Be sure to see his jawing with Hochuli, it's a classic.
     
  10. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Tryptophan + Dallas/Raiders = cure for insomnia.

    Too little too late. His legs are gone, and that was his only asset. He's two years away from the game, and was never a good QB to begin with. Would love to see him turn it around, but not holding my breath.

    And Kevin Kolb. Vick is a glorified decoy. Poor man's Pat White.

    Well, you even see this to a certain degree in the NFL with teams like Dallas and Washington. Throwing money around without regard to team chemistry, focusing on individual talent. Whereas teams that stress the team over the individual, draft well, and don't bend over for free agency (Steelers, Indy, Pats, Giants) are pretty consistant (not to say that those teams are small timers - NFL is a different beast).

    Wow, if we could figure that out we could probably broker peace in the middle east too.

    Couple points I would make:
    -In the 80s there were some real unscrupulous college programs who recruited via cash, cars, drugs, guns and whores (in that regard it was very much like the FL). It corrupted things something fierce, and the NCAA cracked down so bad that now if a booster buys a prospect a cheeseburger the school would probably get slapped with sanctions.
    -These are institutions of higher learning first (although to be honest thats just a pretense for some programs). A lot of schools aren't willing to lower their academic standards to allow some muscleheaded jocks in just to use the program as a springboard for their pro career.
    Yale, Harvard, West Point - these schools used to produce Heisman winners and get national championships. Clearly, competing with the Miamis and Oklahomas of the world is low on their priority list, as it should be.
    They still produce some NFL guys, and all the better, they're smart and good athletes.
    Some teams do relax their standards, with great success (Jerome Bettis and Ricky Waters got some sort of special dispensation from the Pope to attend ND I think).
    -College programs are pretty diverse. Perrenial Powerhouses supply a ton of NFLers (Miami, Florida, 'Bama, LSU, Texas, Oklahoma, USC, Ohio State, Mich, ND, Penn State etc.).
    But there are hundreds, if not thousands of college programs across the country. Ivy Leagues, Black Colleges, Div. II programs.
    You can get developed, noticed and drafted if you rise to the top of the level you're at. I could look at any NFL roster and see guys from schools I've never heard of in my own life. (love those early game intros "Dontrell Jackson - Eastern Kentucky Baptist Tech" huh?)

    In this sense, I do think the NCAAs are a great petri dish for the NFL. The offense and defenses they run, while not as complex are way more diverse.

    Look at Miami, running a college offense that the whole league has copied. Wildcat's been around forever. You got a Div II college coach in Sporano who is clearly not in the mold of the staid establishment coach (a la Shottenheimer, Norv Turner etc.). This is a good thing IMO.

    The biggest failing is the system only serves guys between 18-22 with a SAT score >800. After that, it's easy to fall off the map.

    RBs too. Galloway losing his notorious speed was kind of a given, but, and I don't want to call him stupid, but he never got on the same page as Brady, and Belichik does not have patience for mental errors. 3 Games of drops and wrong routes gets you deactivated. Enter Julian Edelman aka Wes Welker Jr.

    He can say whatever he wants the way he is playing.
    He is the singlemost destructive, disruptive force in the NFL ATM (Polamalu being injured). He's reaching almost LT levels of mayhem and damage.
    Too bad D guys don't get much MVP consideration, him and Troy are unbeleivable.
     
  11. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    In case anyone missed it.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVEN74CAHqk[/youtube]

    Lions-Browns. I know it's getting a lot of hype, but it's hard to give the kid too much credit for that. That's an awesome show of dedication and grit.
     
  12. [PCE]el_Prez

    [PCE]el_Prez Vault Fossil

    Apr 25, 2003
    Hehe, no I played guard and he was a D-End and went against O Tackles. When he was drafted me and some friends were watching and they played a clip of ISU vs. NAU where he chased down our RB from like 40 yards behind, hehe. We still give him shit about it today because Allen has become so well known.
     
  13. TwinkieGorilla

    TwinkieGorilla This ghoul has seen it all

    Oct 19, 2007
    holy FUCK i love my boy Wood!

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8148195f/Charles-Woodson-Pick-6

    another huge day for the man on track to win MVP or Def. Player of the Year. 6 tackles, 1 assist, 1 sack, 4 pass defended, 2 interceptions, 38 yds, 1 TD. and what's that? 2 million dollar donation to a hospital in his hometown? jesus, man! even for a football player that ain't no chump change!

    holy FUCK i love my boy Wood!
     
  14. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Wood was awesome in that game. Hell, Wood's been awesome this season. Hell, Wood's been awesome as a Packer.

    MVP? Nah. How often does a defensive player win MVP? Hell, looking at the list, I see one DT (Alan Page), one linebacker (LT) and one placekicker (Moseley). That's two pass-rushers and, errrr, one placekicker during the strike-shortened season of '82. Rest is QB/RB obv.

    If a defensive player wins it, and I'd love that because fuck all this QB/RB-centric shit, it'd sooner be one of the premier pass-rushers. Probably Jared Allen. Mebbe Elvis Dumervil.
     
  15. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Woodson's been sick since his Michigan days. Started as a freshman, Heisman winner, undefeated nat'l champs, he's got collegiate trophies coming out of his ass. Guy's a phenom.

    Dumervil is too one-dimensional, he's like a Dwight Freeney clone - short and fast. Useless against the run.
    Allen is a more complete player.

    Really liked NFL network coverage yesterday. The other network crews are such clowns, I haven't been able to watch them in years. I was really impressed how Deion, who's always reveled in that jackass/jester type role does some really sober, relevant shit now. He actually apologized for how bad the Giants were, said something like "I apologies folks, we pick these games out at the beginning of the year...yadda yadda". After decades of watching shitty, late season MNF matchups, to hear someone publicly admit to the 600lb gorilla in the room was pretty stand-up.
    The other networks, especially ESPN are so wrapped up in attaching themselves to the NFL's popularity that they are never critical of anything. Collinsworth and Aikman are actually the only I can think of that call players, coaches, teams, officials, the league out when they do unflattering, ugly shit.

    I actually missed Madden's usual 6-legged turkey shtick this year. He made Thanksgiving Lions games somewhat palatable.
     
  16. UniversalWolf

    UniversalWolf eaten by a grue.

    Aug 28, 2005
    Every year. There's a defensive MVP and an offensive MVP, although the winner of the latter is considered the MVP.

    It's too bad Peyton Manning won it last year when he didn't deserve it, because this year he does deserve it, and he's going to win it again, and it's annoying. I hope CJ4.24 gets some consideration if he goes over 2000 yards.

    I still can't believe he beat out Manning for the Heisman though.

    $2,000,000 is a big donation.
     
  17. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Well Manning's reputation from Tennessee to well into his pro career was that he padded his stats against weak teams and crumbled in big games. Were it not for one flukey playoff run and a SB duel Vs. Rex Grossman, that reputation might be undeniably cemented forever.

    But yeah, for a CB to beat out a QB or a HB for the Heisman is pretty remarkable. Was Brady not the Wolverine's QB that year or was it Greise?

    Looks like a weak Heisman group this year. Sounds like Tim Tebow will win by default, and probably the nat'l championship too.
    Yay. :roll:
     
  18. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Uh, no. There's a separate award for NFL MVP and NFL offensive/defensive player of the year. For instance, last year Peyton Manning won AP NFL MVP and Drew Brees won AP NFL Offensive Player of the Year
     
  19. TwinkieGorilla

    TwinkieGorilla This ghoul has seen it all

    Oct 19, 2007
    regardless, it will be hard for a defensive back to win out...even though i do feel Woodson is one of the most dynamic defensive players in the league right now.

    he's a ball-hawk, he creates fumbles, he rushes and sacks, and his man-on-man coverage is phenomenal.
     
  20. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Look, I like the "choker" bit as much as the next guy, be he has a Ring now, and no amount of calling it "flukey" or pointing out the Bears weren't that good is going to change that.

    A total of 8 DBs (4 cornerbacks, 4 safeties) have won it, with the likes of Bob Sanders, Ed Reed, Kenny Easley, Deion Sanders and Rod Woodson in there. But yeah, it's usually pass-rushing linebackers and defensive ends, and 3-technique defensive tackles.