Pale Horse ponders Military Life for Meaning

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Paladin Solo, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. Paladin Solo

    Paladin Solo So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 7, 2003
    Because it's something I want to try.

    I went to my classes, I studied afterwards, I then had the rest of the day to either lounge around, go the the gym, or relax with my friends who happened to be lounging around as well. There's the occasional community service thing, but that's about it. This is lazy to me. I have a need to be somewhere doing something. Granted, getting a college education won't happen in a day. But it's too soon for me, right now. It's personal preference. I don't know why that makes you people so mad. I'll go back to school after I finish up my service in the military.

    No, I said if that's what happens, that's what happens. I never said I want to join the military to die for someone.

    Because I happen to believe in the importance of not just my life, but others' as well? Again, I'm not jumping any grenades when pushing people away will do just fine. I was talking about the bullet thing in general terms.

    I gave you my reasons, and my choice. You told me they're flawed. Why? Because I happen to believe in something? The risk of life is one I'm willing to take when you're not. Otherwise I wouldn't be joining the military. That doesn't make one suicidal. Accepting the possibility of death, or the surrender of your life for something else in a fucked up situation does not make one suicidal. You think crazy, I think reality. Also, drop the fucking goth and suicidal accusations. If you can't understand something, don't go and demean a person so you can feel better about it. I know you'd prefer a different lifestyle, and different reasons to your actions. These are mine. It works for me when it doesn't work for you. I'm sorry if you don't like that.

    I don't know how the fuck we got way off topic. Let's get back on topic, please.

    Say no to nukes.

    Heh... Perhaps...
     
  2. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    You could've easily filled that time with something else. Learn to play an instrument, socialize, earn money, post on NMA. Whatever. But saying 'My lifestyle made me lazy' makes you look like you're being lazy, know it, and then try to blame it on something else.

    You said you were willing to die for someone else, literally take a bullet for him. And you said that in the context of justifying your joining the military. Twist and turn however you want, you used it in your reasoning as you presented it to us as a reason (or justification) to join the military.

    Jesus Bloody Mary Of Scotch, I did not accuse you of being Goth, nor of suicidal, but of being a wannabe-martyr, trying to justify your life being taken by letting someone else live.
    What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that I can understand that when put in the situation you would possibly take a bullet, but that your bringing it up at all basically makes you look like someone who wants to do that, not just someone who would do it.
    And now you're the one coming at me with ad hominems, while accusing me of them to 'feel better about it'. Hah.
     
  3. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Admin

    May 27, 2004
    i read Sander's "Jesus Bloody Mary Of Scotch" as FMJ's "Mary Jane Rotten Croutch"...



    anyhow, you guys are cought in a senseless argument. you wont give in & he wont back down. all the arguments in the world won't make either side change their mind, it's a stalemate...
     
  4. Paladin Solo

    Paladin Solo So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 7, 2003
    Filling in the time was not the fucking problem for the millionth time. It was that I didn't want to live like that just yet. I was eager to get out of high school for a reason. I thought college would be better, it was more of the same only in a relaxed state. I enjoy relaxing, but I want to try something else right now. I've been relaxing for 18 years now, and maybe that's my problem. I might take it for granted one day, but that day is not today.

    Twist and turn? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? Willing to die for someone, was not, is not, will not be my fucking reasons to join the military. I never presented it as a as such. I said if it happens, it'll be the price I pay for me wanting the make a difference and/or finding my purpose.

    So me saying it would suck if we got nuked but it might happen would be like me saying let's get fucking nuked?

    What else can explain it? You think you're better right? Or do you know a thing or two because you watch the news and agree with people with the same opinions as you?
     
  5. Roshambo

    Roshambo Antediluvian as Feck

    Apr 3, 2003
    Wait, Pale Horse, you're lazy now and expect the military to suddenly give you direction in life?

    Oh my fucking GODS...

    When you hit boot, your life will inherently suck, and if you're not used to sparkling and finding self-motivation under easy civvy life, how the hell do you expect any of us to believe that somehow you're going to snap into a different person to become a responsible, competent soldier, when life is going to suck and you have people trying to step on your back to do a better job?

    Unless you can do that elsewhere, what makes you think you can do that in the Army? Stripes?

    And probably take someone out along with you through your stupidity and/or laziness.

    You absolute fucking moron. The Army has been the one COMMITTING WAR CRIMES AGAINST THE IRAQI PEOPLE, and you think you are going to be helping by enlisting? Fallujah ring a bell? They are really not helping a whole fuck of a lot except keep that fenced off green zone relatively peaceful and add to collateral body counts and "accidental civilian terminations". Are you so stupid as to believe that food handouts and rebuilding a few buildings is going to make you any more popular or make the Iraqi people forget the deaths of their own people BY US soldiers?

    You wonder why we seem harsh on you for this? It's because you're being an idiot and not thinking. Gut reaction is fine - if you have training. Since you're lazy, gut reaction = you think you have found an easy way out.

    As people have pointed out, there are FAR better organizations you can join if you wish to help and do something productive in this world, that don't require you to completely change your life as some kind of easy fix for your crappy life, and help people far better than a bullet through a decapitated child's skull will.

    I can only but wonder if the intel for Operation Wedding Party was from a Pvt SNAFU like you.

    Or you could be part of the unit that shuts off the water to thousands of civilians, in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions, and be held culpable for war crimes. Oh, and a bullet can be put through your head if you decide not to, since it's a time of war and you are not following a direct order. See how that works?

    Oh this is comical. So how many regiments have been trained to full combat status? A hesitant one? And you expect your laziness in uniform to make a difference? Okay, explain how.

    You want to make a difference - DON'T BE THE ONE HOLDING THE GUN. I and many other veterans have been in contact with many Iraqi people for years, ever since the FIRST time we went over there, reassuring these people that we don't simply want them exterminated despite how our military now seems to believe otherwise, that their life is meaningless to the US military, and by proxy, the United States itself.

    You expect to rebuild and help as a soldier? Did you somehow wake up on the stupid side of the bed and forget the point of a soldier?

    If you think your rosy belief that you can join up and smilingly hand out relief food to civvies as your whole duty, is in the military's mission over there, then you're a bigger mental liability to the military than Tone Capone. Hell, it wasn't even provided for in the STILL destitute conditions of New Orleans, and yet you expect our country to be doing better in Iraq if it can't even take care of a major US city and surrounding areas. Before you try to tell me otherwise, answer me this simple question, and you'll have your answer as to why "enlisting to help" is frankly quite retarded:

    Why wouldn't the US Pentagon have a standing order to tally friendly civilian casualties in the Iraqi invasion, if there have been tallies for such for every other war and official action by the US military?
     
  6. Paladin Solo

    Paladin Solo So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 7, 2003
    I was expecting a walk in the park with ice cream in my hand and a rifle in the other. Fucking duh, Rosh.

    Marines. Not that it matters.

    Right, because you've seen an event like this, and apparently are now have a intuition whenever it involves new recruits. I bow to you oh benevolent one.

    I suppose we could just say "fuck it" and instead of trying to help at all we'll just lay them out in fields of slaughter all together. Will that fix the problem Rosh? Then again, we could just hand it over to the insurgents, warring factions, rebels, and/or terrorists and let them rebuild it while the Iraqis can apparently forget the deaths they caused. The worst that can happen is that they form a bunch of minor nations. But at least the world will look at us and say, "at least they didn't stay to finish their job, now we're better off anyways." If not us, who? The U.N.? Fat chance while W. is still in power.

    .

    Easy way out? Saying "fuck it, let someone else worry about it" is the easiest way out possible.

    So let's all just pack up and go home and forget all our problems in Iraq. Let them just kill eachother for years to come. Because we know that foreign companies from all over the world will love to stay in Iraq and rebuild it right now even if coalition forces pulled out.

    Yes, people are going to profit from this war. But there's also people with a sense for trying to do the right thing. Like I said, gut feeling. I want to go there to provide some sort of a protection for the Iraqis, and for the people rebuilding Iraq, even if that means someone somewhere gaining unethical profits from my duties.

    Also, easy fix for a crappy life? I said I enjoy living relaxed and laid back. But I want something different for a change. How is going from relaxed, and careless, to joining the military an easy fix?

    My laziness in uniform? I'm joining the military to have a more active lifestyle, no matter how dangerous it may be. It's something I've always wanted to do, and I'm going to do it.

    Motivation and a sense of purpose, along with my uber American military know-how. It's simple really. I pass down my desire to help the Iraqi people to the Iraqis.

    Because bad people make bad decisions.
     
  7. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Ok, I had to cut this from another thread. Somehow the whole, "we're going to nuke Iran" thing got lost, as did the argument why we are going to do it, why we are probably going to get away with it, and whether that's a bad thing.

    On the positive side Pale Horse, you will probably get ring side seats to that fireworks show.

    Don't be too lazy not to bring the right pair of shades and a lot of sun screen.
     
  8. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    The millionth? You mean the second, right? Psch.
    Also, note that I did not attack your choice of not continuing college *anywhere*. I only said that your saying, literally, 'My lifestyle made me lazy' made you look like someone putting the cause of all problems somewhere else.
    Sheesh, man, stop taking every attack of your reasons and reasoning as being an attack on yourself.

    I'm going to quote you again:
    "I'm trying to prove to myself that I'm worth something. If that means taking a bullet for a friend with a wife and kids back home praying everyday that he gets back safe and sound, all limbs attached, than that's what it means. "
    Now, note, again, that that is the first reason you quoted for going to Iraq. The very first (other than 'find meaning'). Hence, it would seem logical to deduce that it's quite an important reason to you for joining the military.
    Do you now understand why we all feel you're just going to go there because you feel you need to be a martyr to have a meaningful life?

    Ooh, completely moronic analogies. How nice.
    No, Pale, it is not the same. Unless, of course, you brought up saying it would suck to get nuked as a reason to get nuked. Then it would be a halfway decent analogy.
    But then it would just be absurd.

    This has nothing to do with politics or the situations in Iraq or my personal opinions. Get this: I have not argued politics, Iraq or anything even remotely related to those arguments at all.
    All I'm saying, and really all I'm saying, is that you're *reasoning* (you know, the process of deducing a conclusion from facts) seems to be faulty. That's *it*.
     
  9. Paladin Solo

    Paladin Solo So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 7, 2003
    It's a little hard when people call you a moron because you're opinions differentiate from theirs. Like I said, this isn't politics, this is the way I view life. I'm sorry if that is wrong to some of you.

    I put it in a context to be comprehended as "if that happens while I search for myself, than that happens." I guess it's my fault I wrote it in an accidental manner which made it to be misunderstood.

    In whatever case. I'm not arguing this further. It's pointless because I'm not changing my mind, and never asked for you to either. In fact, this whole fucking fiasco was started because Welsh was on the fucking rag and twisted everything I said. But thanks to Welsh for trying to make me look like a kid calling out for help when I simply asked the conversation be ended. I ask nothing from you people, including your reasons for the things you do.
     
  10. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Speaking of which-
    to which I responded-

    Oh dammit, someone vatted it.

    oh here it is.

    To which Kharn added-

    COme on Kharn, no reason to Vat. Pale Horse is just pissed off and sensitive, but there is no flame up (It takes two to flame).

    and yes, Dah.
    Now back to Pale Horse's existential crisis.
     
  11. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Well, I didn't call you a moron. Besides that, you seem to take everything said about any of your personal reasonings as personal attacks.
    Look at it like this. If some person says, I'm going to be a math teacher because 1+1=3. Wouldn't you call him on the fact that 1+1 does not in fact equal 3?
    Of course, it's a completely exaggerated example, but it does show my point: attacks on your reasonings themselves are not the same as attacks on your personal being.

    Besides all the other mistakes you make in this piece of text, you're basically telling us that we should stop a conversation just because you want us to? Pft. You continued with it just as much as anyone else, and without you, there would've been no conversation at all. You could've stopped it at any time, just by ignoring it. But you continued it as well, and now you're blaming us for the fact that we continued a topic you brought up in the first place? Hah!
     
  12. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    I split it because it derailed a thread that had already been saved from derailment once, not necessarily because Pale Horse was going all sensitive-beserk mode.

    Now stop derailing threads, Frithdammit!
     
  13. welsh

    welsh Junkmaster

    Apr 5, 2003
    Sander, just for the record-
    (1) It's true you didn't call him a moron. You might have insinuated that he was a moron, and in that post you do. But I don't recall you actually calling Pale Horse a moron.

    I did and I think so did Rosh.
    But to be fair, I am not sure if there is much difference between being stupid and being too lazy to think. Certainly it is stupid to be stubborn.

    (2) Attacks against a persons reasoning could also be attacks against the person. Calling a person a moron, or insinuating that, is probably a personal insult as well as an insult to the person's reasoning ability.

    I mean if you call a person's reasoning stupid, aren't you also calling him stupid, and perhaps incapable of actually thinking.

    In that sense, I perhaps I am more of a mind that Pale Horse is just lazy, an unwillingness to think, and that's what makes him stupid- cause and effect.

    Note- I don't recall Palehorse ending this conversation or trying to.
    I also don't recall twisting his words. If anything I think I have been rather careful to go back and look at his posts.

    End of the day- Pale Horse is a Sensitive Pale Horse.

    Which is fine.
     
  14. Roshambo

    Roshambo Antediluvian as Feck

    Apr 3, 2003
    And yet you wonder how I find it hard to believe that you can suddengly find the inspiration to move your ass when you can't be bothered to outside of such a repressive environment.

    More like Semper HUH?!

    YES! Because I have seen your mentality, that enlisting is somehow going to fix your life, make you worth something, yadda, yadda, yadda. It leads to someone that is a danger to those around them until the person is eventually discharged. This is a NORM, and the wash-out rate of those with such a mentality is high.

    And you believe that they are helping to any significant degree. That's the biggest laugh in all of this.

    Well, according to you, one more dumbshit grunt will make all the difference in their policy.

    Kind of like the US had already essentially done in Afghanistan, has NO plans to really stabilize the region, instead they invaded to give Haliburton some rich oil deals from the spoils.

    Such an interesting mentality you use to defend an illegal invasion. So Iraqis are incapable of deciding their own fate and the US needs to stay with the invasion to make sure the oil fields are set up while the starving and homless Iraqis are given the "Freedom to Vote".

    The simple fact is, life was better during Saddam's time than it is now, and their country was fucked and isn't being rebuilt for shit by those who helped fucked it over, instead helping to take out water systems to entire cities.

    Unless you understand what the US presence itself has brought to their country, and what the US ISN'T doing to rebuild, then I suggest you look through a few more facts and consider the advice by those who have fought through at least one war and know the region BEFORE it was like this, BEFORE the US fucked it up without any real movement to rebuild anything but some social centers and oil fields.

    But it doesn't give the illusion of doing anything, and can't be as excused as easily. You don't care to take control of your own life and as a result through your laziness, you think the military is suddenly going to make everything better, for better or for worse.

    That is what we call in the real world "stupidity in career planning".

    Or you could be a complete fucking retard and go working for those CAUSING A LOT OF THE PROBLEM, versus being a relief organization that isn't doing any harm.

    So, which would appear to be the one offering the most amount of ability to help people? It certainly isn't with a gun, dumbass.

    If Haliburton wants the rich oil deals, then the greedy fucks can pay and fight for it on their own versus use US soldiers as the VP's personal war profiteering guard.

    Who? It isn't the president, not the VP, not the military. The most amusing part of this is that you seem to think that you have some sort of free will in deciding what you do over there. YOU DO NOT. You could, in fact, be put into a position where you could get innocents killed, and with your mentality, that isn't a good thing.

    The fact is, you don't know what you will be ordered to do, and the overall prospects of "helping people in Iraq" are rather slim unless you count the far likelier event of being put in the position of shooting those who you think you're going to "help".

    Like I said, laziness to change your life yourself. And add a touch of stupidity for ignoring the obvious.

    So you missed the point of the US military committing war crimes against the hundreds of thousands in Fallujah?

    Okay, genius. Give me one damn reason how that could be considered "protecting" or "helping" them.

    A quick life change, room and board are provided routinely, and it essentially sounds good if you've been listening to a full of shit recruiter who makes bonuses depending upon sign-up numbers.

    Yeah, to prove yourself worth something. And if you're lazy now, you will be lazy in uniform, it tends to work that way. You are essentially a sad sack that will have to be dragged along because somehow you are relying on the military to provide "activity" in your life that you otherwise couldn't be arsed to do yourself with far more logical alternatives.

    You're fucked, then, because if you fuck up in boot camp, everyone pays.

    That load of shit should be framed. Yeah, help the one fledgeling Iraq Defense unit, and try to help people while firing at them, invading their homes, and also shutting off water to a major city.

    Some help.

    Look in the mirror before you make the same mistake. I just pointed out exactly the point that the US military doesn't care about friendly civvy casualties, and you still think you will be able to "help" people while under their command. Unless you can suddenly pop a CO to issue whatever orders you want out from your ass, you are living in a fantasy.

    I'm doing my part to connect to some of the Iraqi people to both see what is happening over there, their change of life, and instill that not everyone wants to kill them for oil, and that Operation Wedding Party isn't something that the veterans of this country believe in as a routine activity of the US military - we just have some fucking stupid people in charge right now.

    That message isn't quite as convincing when it's delivered with a flash grenade and filling the house's inhabitants with bullets on secure orders or reactions to a bomb attack. Yeah, the US military KILLS innocents because when a bomb goes off, the insurgents rely on the kids in the US military escort to be stupid and untrained, so they will in turn go off and attack anyone they see.

    As for calling you a moron, yes, I called you a moron. You plainly deserved it, as you were being...a moron! What an amazing coincidence. If you truly believe that the US military is there in Iraq with a primary mission that better suits the Peace Corps, then yes you are, I quote, an "absolute fucking moron".
     
  15. Dabeav

    Dabeav First time out of the vault

    47
    Feb 20, 2006
    It's like the George Carlin line about Self-help books, if you want to help yourself, you don't need a book - you were motivated enough to go get the book.

    You don't need the military to motivate you, by wanting to join and change your lifestyle, you've already accomplished a good part of what you want to do. If you don't want to play games anymore or sit around, sell your games. Go outside. Eat less. Pretend you're joining and exercise like you need to and instead use it to get women.

    War is to thin population and kill poor assholes, while the rich assholes sit and watch and push units around on the table in the war room.

    Besides, this country is nearing its experation date. An ever increasing number of people see the economy hanging by threads and wonder which one will snap to bring it all down and knock us back into medieval times. Oil is a prominent one, how about housing/credit, or electricity? Oil skyrockets, housing value collapses and everyone is in perma-debt, electricity fails like Summer 2003 NE US/Canada in many places this time? It doesn't take much. Learn some survival skills, or just enjoy the ride.

    Nobody wants to think about that shit, but have you seen gas prices lately? Do you think they'll go back down to below $2/gal? We've expanded so quickly and carelessly, that anything we do now short of come up with a unlimited, reasonable cost, fully renewable resource; we're fucked. The economy will not stand, and people panic easily in any sharp change. Maybe you should think of defending yourself or your friends here?

    Or like I said, enjoy yourself, experience entropy at its finest. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. The US of A will make quite a splash when it collapses.
     
  16. Roshambo

    Roshambo Antediluvian as Feck

    Apr 3, 2003
    I see two very likely, important, and very needed outcomes to this situation, one that many people will not like but will possibly face in the future.

    Bicycles become much more widespread in metropolitan areas and the country as a whole (really, as a country hick, I can get a bicycle well into the 40mph range and used that as my main mode of transportation for minor crap in Alaska), and the amount of lazy lardasses in this country will dramatically decrease.
     
  17. Dabeav

    Dabeav First time out of the vault

    47
    Feb 20, 2006
    True, that could work. It works for many Chinese. I know a guy who hasn't used his car in almost a year, he just bikes everywhere. My friend's brother does this as well but that's because if he gets another DUI, he'll be in the slammer for quite a while.
     
  18. Carib FMJ

    Carib FMJ Nuka-Cola Chaser

    Nov 8, 2003
    The Germans have a lot of Bicycle folks about. Seems to keep them nice and trim.
     
  19. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Eh, everyone has a bike here. It's a lot more useful in city life than a car, and it's useful for travelling between cities if you don't have a car.
     
  20. Silencer

    Silencer Night Watchman Staff Member Admin

    Nov 7, 2003
    Heheh, I still remember the shock I was in at the train station in Rotterdam. Bicycles! Swarms of bicycles! Hundreds! Great multi-story racks stacked with bicycles!

    Back on topic, now.