Paris attacks - ongoing

Oh yeah. Well, fuck western media anyways. It's obvious no one cares unless something happens at a certain proximity next to a Starbucks.

But the meme made me laugh. So, join me in laughing.

 

Can't really blame them, given how hell-bent Russia was on denying any ISIS involvement and the absolute apathy of the Russian government towards the deaths (any Western leader would have arrived at the airport to welcome home the remains of the bodies... or at least made a speech following the attack).

 

If I were the leader of one of these nations and these groups are as violent as ISIS I would be a murderous dictator too. Murderous against those groups at least. These nations have not earned their democracies the proper way, you help them take down the current strong man and a worse one will replace it. There should be some sort of "Prime Directive" against intervening in these countries, let them sort themselves out.

 

No, I tend to agree, since ISIS power structure was architected by Samir Abd Muhammad al-Khlifawi, former Iraqi colonel in service of Saddam Hussein as a head of his intelligence services. After dissolution of Saddam's military forces in 2003, thousands of top-ranked unemployed Iraqi officers have formed what is know as ISIS today.

 

Dictators that saw also often enough quite some substantial support by the west and Russia ...

 

Don't human rights me, my country had to suffer human rights violators sponsored by the same people who now want to overthrow Assad because of the same human rights violations you are babbling about, so bullshit to that. At the very least letting them slaughter each other would had avoided things like what happened in Paris. Taking the moral high ground is easy when looking from the outside, but both those who fight for Assad and against him on the ground have their reasons and think their view is right, as well as personal feelings of why they are fighting, they don't get the luxury of your black and white evaluations.

So fine, you have the most politically correct opinion, you are a better human being than me, here is a cookie. I still think things would had evolved much better if European and North American coalitions would had stayed out of it instead of using human rights that you believe in but they don't as an excuse to manipulate the fate of nations to their own convenience.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but I feel this is more or less Sanders point, staying out of it doesn't mean to cancel or cut any kind of support, particularly humanitarian support. Manipulating governments/nations and intervening with military actions very rarely solve problems in the long run. I am sure he is aware of that. *shrugs*

Which doesn't mean that Western countries should intervene with military force, either. It just doesn't help matters to pretend that murderous dictators preserve order, when what they're really doing is violently oppressing their own population, leading to inevitable violent rebellions.

 

Sander: These dictators are murderous assholes but we hqve no right to overthrow/kick them out.

Crni: These dictators are buttholes but we have no right to remove them. We should just throw humanitarian money at them so they can keep the status quo going.

Gonz won this round, whats the point of doing any damn thing when all one does is TALK about how bad dictators are.

 

I am with you on that one, we should not do more than offering humanitarian aid, as harsh as that might sometimes be, but I feel in the long run it is the better decision when you consider the alternatives, going in with full military force.

 

IMO, the problem isn't that France and EU intervened in Syria, the problem is that they intervened when it was way too late in Syria and withrawed too early from lybia. The Islamic State wasn't that much a reality in 2011. The problem is that rebellion reached a stalemate that lasted too much years, years during which that fanatic group has risen. Had the rebellion succeded faster, that group wouldn't have gained so much strenght. We aren't paying the price of intervening now, we are paying the price of not having intervened in 2011. Beside that, we also were careless in preventing our citizens to become fanatic themselves. Many of the people the coalition is fighting in Syria/Iraq are frenchmen that converted themselves to islam and islam fanatism. In short, many of the things that are currently happenning to us are caused by the fact we did nothing for years.

 

We really need a prime directive.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...n-isis-stronghold-in-syria-after-paris-attack

I think it's important to act after a crisis. But this just seems to add to the loop of violence some more. No doubt it will make those french or other westerners who want retaliation happy, I suppose. But it makes me feel sad that even a small step on a road to a permanent solution seems nigh impossible.

I feel both sunni doctrine and western imperialism have created a situation that will take decades to change, let alone be dissolved.

 

You talk as if Shia extremists are non-existant.

Even without western influence, Al Qaeda and the like will always be around. They will continue to exist as long as people are dumb enough to join and think sectarian violence is ok.

 

I'm ignorant on these subjects, forgive me on that. But I know they'll always be around. But they weren't going to the west to blow people up nearly as much 50 years ago. Neither side is wholy to blame.

Footage of french bombing:

Spoiler

Mission accomplished?

 

Yep, there were tons of Muslim bombings during or before World War 2. Stop saying shit, it started after west and Soviet intervention in the Middle East.