Pete Hines: BGS won't announce next game at E3

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by WorstUsernameEver, May 22, 2014.

  1. Korin

    Korin So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
    Admin

    Aug 6, 2010
    I assume you're talking hyperbole and not literally, even on the console version you will frequently see more than 5 NPCs on screen at a time without the engine 'dying'. It's also important not to confuse console limitations with what the engine can actually do. Also in this same chain of sentences you said "over the years very little has changed" then went on to list improvements in visuals and character models. That's usually what people are talking about when they say "engine". How the game looks and performs.

    Morrowind:


    Oblivion:


    Skyrim:


    Just comparing Oblivion to Skyrim should be enough to meet those requirements.

    The AI doesn't have anything to do with Gamebryo and was significantly improved (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Radiant_A.I.). I think you're exaggerating to make a point but having played Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim (all within a very recent span of time) I can tell you the differences are large. The extent of the AI in Morrowind was that they walked around. That was literally it. They didn't interact with each other... they didn't interact with you (unless you initiated a dialogue). They couldn't even leave buildings on their own unless it was an escort quest.

    http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Radiant_A.I but if you're talking about dialogue and quests that has... you guessed it, nothing to do with the engine. Morrowind's NPCs did basically nothing, they were human-shaped blobs of repeating text. Oblivion's NPCs moved and interacted with each other, many of which had their own schedules, traveling throughout the world on certain days and at certain times and also by interacting with objects in the environment. Skyrim improved upon this.

    It's almost like it was a sequel to a series of similar games coincidentally made by the same team of people.

    Most bugs likely have little to do with the engine. If you've ever worked with the GECK or Creation kit, you can make all kinds of "bugs" just by doing it wrong.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2014
  2. pexxx

    pexxx First time out of the vault

    90
    Feb 12, 2007

    Hi Paul, I'm glad I bumped in to you. So I can tell you how I hate your posts on Neogaf and I can also ask you why the fuck are you posting exactly the same shit here and over there?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2014
  3. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Guest

    Hahahaha! Small internet huh?
     
  4. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Yes, I was exagerating somewhat, its just simply hilarious because when you play for example Oblivion or Skyrim those games try contstantly to convey the idea of epicness and a heroe facing this huge obstacles, like demonic invasion and wars ... with 10 people fighting on your screen (Kvatch anyone?) or the Civil war in Skyrim, that for some reason feels like its not even there. Lets place 12 NPCs on one side and 10 on the other and call it a "civil war". That's what I am talking about. And here neither Oblivion nor Skyrim improved anything compard to Morrowind, except that they at least didnt tried to make Morrowind in to something it never was. Thing is, its not even bad if the game "can't" do it, there are ways how you can create big battles without the player realising that its just a facade.

    Though, I hope that you remember that engines are not only about visuals. You see, Todd Howard never became tired of talking about what Oblivion can do outside of rendering pretty textures, Radiant AI? More like Marketing Buzz Words.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjbx6-KQoRg

    For me, engines are definitely not only visuals. I know most gamers dont think like that though, because what you hear about are usually the visuals. But yeah, its not. Engines contain a lot of stuff that is not tied to the quality of rendering and visuals, which I am sure you know.

    Not to mention what Bethesda has been doing even before Morrowind was to remove gameplay from the game, simplyfing the game mechanics up to a point where they became more and more meaningless. One might say that it actually improved the game, yes, it did, it made it more about "action" rather then anyting else, I mean yeah why would you need a skill about "languages" right? it doesnt kill anything!. But I am not sure if that is the best kind of approach for a role playing game where you make it all so meaningless that it becomes a hack-and-slay adventure. Particularly when there are examples that it can be done better, like in Gothic night of the Rave, where learning and improving the ancient language gave you some benefit. It's about choices I guess and the team behind Oblivion/Skyrim hates this idea for some reason. Just dont block the player from a certain path! Allow them to do everything, when ever they want, regardless what they want! Except for killing some NPCs that are important for the story!

    Skyrim is a fun game, so was Oblivion, no doubts about that. But I dont see improvements in the gameplay at all, just that they decided, hey! we cant do proper RPG mechanics, so lets go and focus on action instead! But sell it as the bestest RPG game of all time! And this is what you get in Oblivion and Skyrim then. More "badass" enemies dont come in the form of a real challange, no they just have more health and their spells/attacks do more damage. That's it. hell Doom requierd more tactical thinking sometimes ... I am not saying that Bethesda has suddenly to follow some hardcore pen and paper mechanic here, but seriously, playing a Wizard in pretty much any Bethesda game feels like wielding a flame thrower or bazooka in a shooter.

    Except that bugs that have been pressent in previous games have been still around in their current games. Seriously, looking in to the mod community of Oblivion/Skyrim, Bethesda is throwing very little support at them, and their track record of bug fixing isnt that great either. They do a lot of modifications to their own engine going from Oblivion to Skyrim, but it still seems like they dont spend enough time on testing their games. I am not saying Bethesda is the only company to blame here, but their games do get a hell lot of fixes by the community. I blame it somewhat on the principles that Todd Howard follows, of which he explained to us in the forum when we used to post on the Bethesda forum once they started to work on Fallout 3. You know they tend to go directly from the brain storming to the "programming phase", adding just what they believe is "fun" and "awesome!". I can imagine how that one works. I know such people, and I hate to work with them, becaues it creates all sorts of issues in the long run. I am not saying it has to be like that, its just what I believe. But still. You can avoid a hell lot of issues, like bugs and errors in your story if you take this 3-4 extra months to actually make concept phase about the story for example. But some people simply dont work like that. It certainly isnt bad with a shooter that has a very simple story. But RPGs I think require a different approach. But as said, that's just my opinion.

    So you want to tell me that NPC pathing, structures, improvements to the AI scripts etc. are not part of an engine? Also do we talk about the same Radiant AI that Bethesda loved to talk so much about? Seriously, this has become a runing gag for Oblivion ...


    I was a huge fan of Bethesda and I loved a lot of their games. But things changed a lot of after Oblivion for me, because I seriously bought in to their hype machine and I followed their development and principles over the years, the shift from previous Elder Scrolls games to Morrowind and from Morrowind to Oblivion (and Fallout 3 which was done by more or less the same people).

    Yes, I fear as well as long Howard is in charge over the Elder Scrolls project, we will never see a proper RPG by Bethesda.

    Oh, by the way. Still like you Korin :p
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
  5. .Pixote.

    .Pixote. Antediluvian as Feck
    Modder

    Sep 14, 2009
    Maybe the boys at Beth are starting to count their pennies, after the fiasco that is "The Elder Scrolls Online" ....hehehehe - as a consequence Fallout 4 will be a turn based isometric game, it's cheaper to produce.
     
  6. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I know you're joking, but if it would be a realistic situation Fallout 4 would be probably a shooter then. Much cheaper to make. Much bigger target audience ... now ... and now ... I am afraid this will happen.
     
  7. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Is TESO really a fiasco ?

    I don't get how it disapointed so much people.
    I didn't played the TES games but many say that TES games are like Fo3.
    Fo3 feel like a big MMO without other players.
    TES fan should be happy that they finally put back the missing feature.
     
  8. Korin

    Korin So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
    Admin

    Aug 6, 2010
    I don't know if it qualifies as a "fiasco" but it certainly sucks, at least in my opinion. Some people seem to enjoy it. I'm tired of MMOs, so I'm already disinclined to like it I suppose.
     
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    the 2 main complains that I read about TESO are that its to expensive, you pay once for the game and then a monthly fee, and that in a time when there are countless of F2P MMOesque games out there ... and the other complains are that TESO doesnt offer you more then what you had already with every other MMO of the last decade(s).

    It's probably not a bad game, I guess it just doesnt offer enough for the price tag it has. I mean who would buy a car on the level of a Volkswagen for the price of a Lamborghini that yeah doesnt offer you the same experience like the Lamborghini.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
  10. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Holy shit.:shock:
    Some people can pay for a game, then pay to play it ?:?
    It got to a whole new level of wallet raping.
     
  11. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010

    Uhmm...hasn't WoW been working on that business model since, like, ever?
     
  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    yes, but that's WoW. I mean WoW isnt getting really a lot of new streams of players for a long time now. Their numbers are going back, albeit very slowly its mainly a cash cow for Blizzard right now, they just have to make sure to keep the players they already have which is much easier there are enough people that continue to stay with WoW not because of WoW but because it became a habit. If you see MMOs as market, then WoW has a lot of the consumers right now, penetrating this market with a new product takes quite some ingenuity, and I guess that is where TESO falls flatt, just as how Star Wars the ol Republic online did. I mean not only do they use a what I would call difficult buisness model but they also dont offer you anything that is really new. I mean if you already have to pay for a product then it better does something better then the other free to play products out there. Which it doesnt.
     
  13. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Never played WoW.
    Still, it is hard to be unfazed by craps like this.
     
  14. MurkyShadow

    MurkyShadow Still Mildly Glowing

    228
    Feb 15, 2004
    I still have to chuckle over the people who were asking if inXile would not have to ask
    Beth for the use of Fallout rights, because of their developing of Wasteland 2 and how
    Brain Fargo can be the executive producer Fallout if he doesn't work at Beth.

    As for Fallout 4. Well, I don't think I'll try it. Even New Vegas couldn't do
    anything for me. In that engine and style, even done by former Black Isle,
    I'm not sure it'd by my cup of tea. Then again, I don't think would've
    ever happened. But I don't want to digress in that direction.

    Let's see what's following after Wasteland 2 and Torment - Tides of Numer...ana? ena?
     
  15. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    can't argue with that.
    even NV is far improved as quest RPG, it's engine and FPS style wasted too much aspects of RPG.
    I like NV but I can't say it's good RPG compare to older and better RPGs...
    at least, it's best among modern(after 2006~2011) RPG.
     
  16. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    it's better then F3, I have to give it that. But to beat F3 well, I am not sure if that is really something of an achievement. You can't really blame Obsidian for the engine and all though. THey did the best they could in that short amount of time and with all the restrictions by Bethesda, and I think Obsidian has shown more support for Vegas then F3 ever got from Bethesda, as far as changes goes with patches. I would not go so far to say that Vegas was the Fallout 3 I would have loved to see, but it definitely was the closest to what F3 could have been. Imagine if Obsidian had more freedom and more choices in engines. Who knows what we might have seen. Let's be honest, it probably would not have been a tourn based game, but I guess it would have been a lot less about pew-pew-first-person action, and more about yeah ... role playing. I just have the feeling the guys at Obsidian feel like gamers that want to make money with making enjoyable games, while with Bethesda I always have the feeling they just want to make a product that sells as many units as possible. No matter what it takes. Obsidian manages to give their games (at least the one I played) soul, I never had that feeling with Bethesda games, except with Morrowind.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  17. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    IMO, beth's crazy journal and quest marker system killed quest puzzles.
    without those things, even the smallest quests or informations means something.
    dialog choices killed another puzzles which requires player's logic to choose which skill or which items to solve.
    100 max skill system simplified skill usage.

    and worst of all, idiotic critics ruined it's achieve...

    the most sad thing is, there is almost no so called RPGs that did better job as a RPG under publisher.

    I can't deny NV is great RPG even with poor background, but I also can't deny there are many better older RPGs which NV can't match with thanks to beth's stupid tools.
     
  18. FearMonkey

    FearMonkey Vault Senior Citizen

    Oct 12, 2011
    IGN keeps posting articles that they hope Fallout 4 is at E3. Are they in denial or just looking for clicks? Or both?
     
  19. Gnarles Bronson

    Gnarles Bronson regular mutant

    373
    Oct 30, 2011
    Just told someone that Beth wouldn't be presenting at e3 and they got mad at me about it...
     
  20. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    well yeah, you have to understand. You can not blame Bethesda ;)