Question about the relationship between NCR/Brotherhood

The NCR was at war with several chapters of the Brotherhood of Steel, but perhaps not all of them, obviously. Some chapters have survived in the Core region (as shown in some New Vegas endings), while others have been on the run.

From what we see between the Brotherhood depicted in Fallout 1 and then in sequels, we see an evolution of an isolated Brotherhood with a unified command structure, to a Brotherhood comprised of independent chapters (most likely because of the War with the NCR forcing different chapters to cut ties and minimize communication).

The Mojave Brotherhood is actually a chapter that was on the run after the war in California. They went to Helios One in an attempt to turn the tide of war back towards the Brotherhood.

Superior technology isn't an instant "I Win" button, as the Chosen One can attest to. It provides a major advantage, but it isn't the end-all, be-all of the Fallout universe.

The Enclave certainly had superior technology, even over the Brotherhood. What they don't have, are numbers. Since the Enclave had a strict policy against recruiting wasters, they had to depend entirely on numbers generated by their own genepool.

By Fallout 2 and further into New Vegas, the Brotherhood is hardly a sizable group, mostly for the same reason - they're members of a family tree that extends to military service in the great war. It does seem that they take in a few wasters once in awhile, but not enough to really ensure the longevity or sustainability of such a group.

One has to remember that "nearly indestructable" does not mean "completely indestructible" or invincible. As you said, power armor turns its wearer into a walking tank. Tanks themselves were often called "invincible" back in the First World War, because few weapons could penetrate their armor. Of course, that doesn't mean that armor can't be worn down, or that there are not weapons developed to destroy such armor. Just that under normal circumstances, the armor can withstand a good deal of abuse and still remain functional.

As for the expedition, Fallout Tactics is "partially canon" (or as tvtropes would say "Broad Strokes canon"), mostly the only thing Tactics has in canon is that some Brotherhood members fled east, and some winding up in the Mid-west and then the East Coast (Fallout 3).

As the details of Operation Sunburst come to light, NCR simply had manpower as a major advantage over the Brotherhood. While a small group of Brotherhood members are truly a force to be reckoned with their technological advantage, the NCR has a massive numerical advantage that more or less wore down the Brotherhood.

To compare, the First Battle of Hoover Dam lists a little over a hundred casualties in what is considered a major battle with the Legion. Operation Sunburst was fought by over two thousand NCR troopers in assault gear versus maybe 150 Brotherhood members. The NCR lost over 700 soldiers in that one fight, while the Brotherhood lost only one-tenth of the number.

 

F3 to me is utter garbage so that story really doesn't fly. Like OP stated, even without a war, the Lost Hills folks didn't want to risk technology for anything unless it was minimal risk and for sure. If there was a war then the BoS definitely would have never sent out an expedition nevertheless use supposed "airships", they could have used to airstrike NCR positions.

I really do not understand how folks could have deserted Lost Hills considering the heavy NCR presence and the not so subtle appearance of power armor. Every NCR patrol from near Lost Hills to the border would have been gunning for desserters.

As for the Lost Hills folks, I like the F1 BoS ending where they become a R&D tech house. They wisely stay out of active fighting but use their technological leverage to play NCR government factions off one another and in a way maintain a powerful grip on NCR politics.

In regards to BoS weapons, they can create much of their own ammo from gunsmiths. Most of the miniguns and bazookas (which happened to be their staple weapons in the originals), used ammo that can be easily manufactured. In regards to shit like the vindicator, I don't think I ever ran into a BoS patrol that carried those, which was the only mini-gun to fire rare ammo. Again, I never ran into BoS in the originals that carried Gauss weapons either. I know the enclave carried Gauss weapons but thats a different story.

Energy cells I believe can be recharged and with a reliable generator (which the BoS have), can keep their energy weapons going in-definitely.

 

I think there is a great rift in the brotherhood concept before and after Bethesda bought the rights for fallout. Some important aspects of the organization differ from what we find in fallout 1 and 2 lore.

in fallout 1 & 2
Bos was a relative chivalrous & benign, organization whose main interests was to acquire and reproduce technological knowledge (primary warfare knowledge) as well to use such knowledge to pacify the wasteland raiding mutant or raider camps and to trade part of this tech with other settlements.

in fallout 3 & new vegas
the brotherhood is focused only in acquiring technology at all costs, through all means clearly stepping away from the former chivalry and benign aspects of this organization in f 1&2, even waging war upon other people to acquire what they want. (with the exception of a single branch the capitol wasteland brotherhood of steel)

I have nothing against the two concepts, and i find that would be possible for an order to actually turn from f1 & 2 concept to f3 & nv. however i fail to see a strong enough reason, i guess there is a gap in the history, because i don't consider the reasons exposed in the later games to be strong enough to bring a war between the two factions. If we follow the end of fallout 1 and 2 the Bos was actually much more inclined to be an ally of nrc than an enemy, they spread bunkers to protect and share supplies with many settlements (including nrc towns).

The main reason exposed was due a radical change of leadership in the bos over time caused the rifts between bos and nrc that over years would erupt in a war ... but that alone would be enough? don't you think that there is something missing ... a part of the history that no one knows yet, its just my feeling, but i guess that would take more.

 

It wasn't just the leadership, they attacked civillians and caravans who possessed tech like laser rifles or any military technology. The NCR responded by waging war.

 

I might be forgetting something, but it seems that all BoS branches outside of California are run by guys who disagree with the Lost Hills leadership:

-Chicago: this branch was formed by an internal faction that wanted to allow outsiders get into the Brotherhood. The went sent East in a mission which looked a lot more like an exile, at least in my opinion.

-Capital Wasteland: the leader of this branch had no problem in forgetting about their main mission and start helping locals against Super Mutants, raiders and other threats.

-Mojave: a branch formerly lead by Elijah, an obsessed man who wanted to push all limits and develop new things, not just gathering all the remaining tech for the Brotherhood and wait for the rest of humanity to die while they're chillin' in a bunker.

Something tells the leaders at Lost Hills like to say they're sending people out on "epic missions" when they're actually telling them to walk away and settle someplace else. If they stick to their "rebellious" inclination, fuck them. If they change their minds and/or actually do something helpful for the people back at Lost Hills, jackpot. Even sending the Vault Dweller to the Glow "on a quest" seems to work like that: (s)he'll most probably die and not bother us anymore, but if (s)he survives, a tape from a patrol that never came back will be recovered.

Anyway what I am trying to say is that "BoS branches" are probably more independent than they even think they are, especially if they get into serious trouble.

 

Well, maybe all depends from which Fallout you look at the matter. I don't like very much how the NCR and Brothehood have changed from the first Fallout. Too many differences and nonsenses from 1 to 2, just to put the things as they began, so they can rewrite their relationship. I think Fallout painted a picture that worked perfectly for the first, but has been since that worse and worse, well, not worse, just nonsense.

The whole NCR-Brotherhood war is itself poorly explained and argued from the point of the "canon"ical ending of F1. I've tried, and still do, reading and reading about the "war". Search the wiki, play the old games (actually again on F2 after finishing 1... again ), play NV (for 2nd time), etc... Yeah, i don't work so i have lot of time and nonetheless, thats my point.

 

well when i said that the brotherhood is relatively a benign and chivalrous i didn't mean they are a noble and altruist organization. they are relatively benign because they respect the authority of other communities and are inclined to peacefully deal with them, perhaps even offer resourceful aid if the order is not put in jeopardy (see below). Now the chivalrous aspect is merely related to the structure of their organization, titles, ranks, codex ... etc (internal aspects, not external)

this is a copy of fallout 1 ending, considered by f2 and f3 as canon.

"The Brotherhood of Steel (1) helps the other human outposts drive the mutant armies away with minimal loss of life, on both sides of the conflict. (2) The advanced technology of the Brotherhood is slowly reintroduced into New California, with little disruption or chaos. (3)The Brotherhood wisely remains out of the power structure, and becomes a major research and development house."

1 = bos helping other human outposts to fend off mutants shows that they are not only interested in their own protection, but with the protections of other settlements as well (its one of the reasons f2 has a bos outpost in every town in the game)

2 = they shared their advanced technology with the New California Republic, a clear friendly approach between NRC - Bos politic relationship. Nrc leader was aradesh and Bos leader was (after jhon maxon) rhombus, both reasonable and honorable leaders, i guess its right to expect that under their ruling both settlements would come into a peaceful understanding, perhaps even an alliance.

3 = If the brotherhood respects local, official governments, share their technological findings, had decades of reasonable leadership, and aid with military defense of many human outposts ... i would consider them relatively benign and with strong, friendly diplomatic ties with NRC.

I think that Bethesda kind ignored that background, when they decided that a radical leadership change alone would be enough to send the order into all those changes (attacking people for tech), in my view there would be complaints, revolt perhaps even uprisings against this new leadership.

 

Is there some reason that you are ignoring that the BOS and NCR fought a war because the BOS decided that NCR had too much technology? The Brotherhood is sworn to protect humanity by preventing advanced technology from falling into humanity's hands. After the events of Fallout, those who felt that tech should be shared with humanity were exiled to the midwest, and those who felt that it should be hoarded gained control of the Brotherhood. Most, if not all of the good things that were referenced in the ending of Fallout were reversed in a few decades. They retreated to their bunkers, and only left them to acquire tech from ruins and to harass those who had it.

 

I just think the reasons behind bos-nrc war in f3 to be kind "lame" ...

but the Bos was a major responsible for the tech upgrade in the New California Republic. After the end of f1 and during f2 they reintroduced advanced tech into NCR, why later on f3 they would try to reacquire what they freely offered?

The Midwest branch of the brotherhood was exiled because they wanted to grant membership to people outside the brotherhood (and thus share top secret knowledge and grant access to power armor, energy weapons ... etc) not because they wanted to share tech with outsiders, because as the lost hill bunker bos becomes a major research and development house (before the fot exile event) they begin to share advanced (not top secret) tech with nrc.

the bos elders were in favor of technological secrecy for their most valuable crafts but were willing to share regular to advanced tech as long as the order was not put in jeopardy. that in my view would be the bos background for f1 & f2. F3 changed that for good, but the reasons exposed for f3 to me are poorly explained ... but again that is just my opinion as player.

 

The point is that the parts of the Brotherhood which would have supported the ending of Fallouts 1 and 2 were sent out East. The remaining parts supported isolationism, except to acquire new technology, and steal it from others. By the time of the Brotherhood-NCR war, the Brotherhood of Steel saw the NCR as an upstart child, using technology that it didn't understand to become powerful. So the Brotherhood decided that it was time to restore its power, and it attacked NCR to take its technology back.

 

Well lets look at the tech The NCR had on their side. Their veteren rangers with their black armor and night vision scopes had a tremendious advantage of the bos optics for the tb51 and tb45s. Lets also remember after fallout 2 the ncr attacked navarro outpost not the brotherhood. So the ncr got ahold of some pretty good tech. their organized tatics and emp grenades and the fact that the power armor units in the deserts were far more likely to suffer from the elements ment that the ncr had clear advantagesover them. When it came to snipers the ncr had legendary veterens trained with .50 caliber sniper rifles a mile and half away waiting to pick off a bos paladin. Lastly the Bos steels numbers werenot sufficiant and were suffering a civil war at that time due to midwestern chapter and the loss of the lyons chapter fo3 bos chapters as well.

 

Sorry if the quote came out wrong, I'm somewhat new to this. But in Fallout 1, I believe, when talking to people in the Brotherhood, they don't say it's indestructible. They say that 'heathens aren't allowed to wear the armor' and that 'if they do manage to kill a paladin the armor is useless'. I am paraphrasing obviously. But that definitely says that paladins can be killed. And just because the /armor/ is indestructible, doesn't mean I can just survive everything. Grenades, for example, can easily cause 'shock waves' that just flow through the armor and can easily kill the wearer without damaging the armor. Using guns would probably be a lot harder to do but still possible. As, no matter the armor, you'll still get the kinetic energy from the bullet/bullets. A shotgun blast from point blank could possibly knock a paladin down. To the point, the NCR may not have used guns, but explosives. Or maybe they found some weapons that are... effective vs power armor?

 

HetaliaFanboy: there was no civil war within the Brotherhood of Steel on the West Coast, just one chapter of the BoS. This may have occurred on the East Coast with Lyons' group (referring to the Brotherhood of Steel there and the outcasts).

The NCR simply outnumbered the Brotherhood of Steel and essentially wore them down.

One has to remember that the war was fairly prolonged, at least long enough for Col. Moore to have served Four Tours of Duty during the NCR-BoS war.

The last major battle between the NCR and the BOS was at Helios One during Operation Sunburst, where the NCR routed the BoS simply through sheer numbers (20:1 ratio, helped by the fact that Helios-One is not a very good position to hold).

 

Too much comic books/hollywood movies I think. Ever heard of phrase "nature hates a vacuum"? BoS is very small group, they don't have enough manpower to act as wasteland police in every city at all times.

What would be better: freeing dozen or two tribals every few weeks, or devoting their time and technology to slowly and methodically benefit entire wasteland? From what we saw all kinds of raiders outnumber BoS what, 30:1? And even if they somehow could act every single time, what about bigger threads, like Enclave? I'm not saying BoS are saints, but they clearly care more about bigger picture.

Or maybe they just realize it would be dangerous to share their technology with tribals and such? You wouldn't give keys to sport car to 15 years-old, so why would you share laser guns and power armours with some random people? How can you be sure they won't use it against you at first opportunity? All we know for sure from F2 is that BoS is short staffed and thinks globally (Enclave threat) rather than locally (one of many, many groups of slavers).

 

You're wroing in each case.

They care about Enclave, simply because Enclave can kill all of them and have better technology. There is nothing like globally thinking and never was, in Fallout 1 BoS only helped to destroy Master's Army because it was threat to them, hell, council still was in majority against taking any actions towards mutants.

And there is difference beetwen giving advanced technology to random people with stealing every high technology because only they can hold it, what is at the end BoS politic towards everyone.