The Socioeconomic Fabric of Bethesda's PA-DC: Dumb

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by qi, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. Jahnri

    Jahnri First time out of the vault

    Nov 3, 2008
    Lets play a game. Its called, make it true. When left with a conclusion that makes no sense , the simplest answer is true.

    Mutations- Well for starts this situation actually explains the biological condition of the planet in fallout. Under normal circumstances plants, trees and animals would have recovered to some extent after several hundred years. Unfortunately in fallout the reality that mutations wouldn't occur as in the game is false. This world it did happen, so any realities from our world become null to a extent. Since plants and animals did mutate the regular ecological process of regeneration didn't occur. That may take hundreds of more years in this system as animals and plants are forced to adapt. So on that account Fallout is what is it is. It doesn't persay need a explanation beyond it happened.

    Structural Degradation- Under normal circumstances food would have long since became inedible after 200 years. In the fallout world it is. Mostly due to the Abbraxo, pardon the mispelling, tech which they developed. Primarily the packaging most food is stored in is designed to keep material inside biologically inert. It mite look like cardboard. Its not. Appearances are deceiving. In the fallout world they figured out how to store foods in materials which effectively stop the biological process of degradation. The food is irradiated, lol ironically a good thing, then sealed in packages which are airtight and contain anti-biotic substances. Japan is actually working on technology like this which could store something like a rice noddle and be healthy 100 plus years.

    As for the houses, I imagine some explanation due to technology can be applied. The Anti-Biological process can keep wood preserved. As well as other infused materials may keep it intact.

    The tech in fallout is definitely based on the 1950's but also excedes our tech level in some ways.

    Food- The above raises a question though. If food can be eaten and preserved for extreme periods of time would any be left? Most likely very little. Even with extremely small populations of humans most of DC would have been scavenged. That being said food has to be coming from somewhere. Several high tech food production faculties are in the game. Especially rivet city. Enough to supply most of the food needs for the area through trade. I also think that one can assume many of the operations which are involved in food production are simply not being rendered. People do farm cattle. They just aren't showing it in the game. Maybe if we get a construction set we can fix that :D

    Overall the game can make sense if you simply remake the way you think of the rules of reality and live by a very different set of realities which fallout would require. Divergent realities can be very confusing.

    The only factor which is glarringly impossible to reason through is the food radiation! If you ate food which has rads, you would accumulate enough to kill yourself in months! The way they have radiation handled with food is abysmal! I don't even eat food because I know its useless. Either Rad-x was extremely common and stored almost everywhere and people are surviving via that or someone is making rad-x in large quantities at a pharmacy in a city like Rivet city. That or they got the accumulation rates totally bass arse backwards and it should accumulate a .001 rad per serving. Low enough to let people live into there 50 or 60's before dying.

    Hopefully someone makes a way to decontaminate the food in the game. Allowing a storyline element to be feasible. Perhaps a anti-radioactive element which can be added to food. :D
  2. Crowley

    Crowley It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 12, 2003
    I use a razor for that. I got it from some guy named Occam.
  3. Jahnri

    Jahnri First time out of the vault

    Nov 3, 2008
    Touche. Fortunately several cases for the food preservation are preserved in the game via a few food advertisements I found. Backing up the odd reality of this Fallout world.

    With the food supplies, the people are eating. We know technology exists in Rivet city. It is one of the only places in the vicinity which would supply that quanity of food. So it has to be the provider. Unless some story element wasn't produced in the game. Which we cant assume. The world is what it is.

    A very odd world :)
  4. Ninjerk

    Ninjerk First time out of the vault

    Nov 8, 2008
    You lost me here.
  5. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    No. What I'm saying is that almost nobody in the fifties envisioned a lush and green post-nuclear world as described in your 2007 book. How we think it would look like now is irrelevant.


    Shady Sands? Junktown?

    Furthermore, most of the BoS stuff existed pre-war, including their base.

    V15's inhabitants splintered into several factions, most of them became raiders. Wild guess: The peace-loving farmers wouldn't want to hang out next to a place the raiders already know, would they?

    Also, why is Megaton built away from Springvale, um, next to an unexploded atomic bomb, instead of incorporating the still-standing town's structures, including a big supermarket? Makes no sense.

    Fair enough.

    You didn't have PC-sized working terminals all over the place.
  6. Roflcore

    Roflcore Mildly Dipped

    Nov 2, 2008
    terminals in a supermarket connected to a mainframe is so 2008 and has nothing to do with 1950.
  7. Ninjerk

    Ninjerk First time out of the vault

    Nov 8, 2008
    What the hell is powering them anyway? The generators in the Vaults are questionable as to whether they still function.
  8. kilolima

    kilolima First time out of the vault

    Jan 9, 2005

    I understood that Megaton had ample supplies of freshwater because the bomb or aircraft crash which caused the crater also acts as a well for groundwater. If you talk to that old woman in Megaton she talks about the town's history.

    I agree with the gist of this thread that the game world should be more like +20 years or so after the war. Nothing would be left after 200 years.
  9. Per

    Per Vault Consort Staff Member Admin

    Apr 1, 2004
    I'm assuming the Vaults and installations like the Glow have deep fusion reactors that will go on for a very long time. Very low-maintenance. And stuff.
  10. MisterBibs

    MisterBibs First time out of the vault

    Oct 31, 2008
    It is relevent, exactly because of your critisim you laid at Bethesda's feet. The further down the Fallout timeline we go, the longer it's going to seem bizzare to players that the ruins still exist, that there's still no greenery, or that raiders are still scavenging the remains of a major city.

    I've talked to Fallout newbies about this topic, and they roughly grasp the concept that the Fallout world is a post-apoc setting where everything basically died out. But my concern is that, the farther Bethesda (or any company controlling the IP) takes the series, more it'll seem incredulous that no progress has happened.

    I've always felt this way about Fallout. No matter what positive ending for a place the game gives you, most of it has to be forgotten to keep the game true to its roots.

    Aradesh's comments (I think it was him saying it, I could be mistaken) always struck me with a big UNRELIABLE NARRATOR tag. But that's just me, and I understand if you see diifferently.

    Tangent: I can't remember who it was, but someone once said that in a non-scifi piece of entertainment, the audience can grasp that a character lied about something, forgot something, or just got something wrong. In sci-fi, though, the audience inherently assumes that if Character says Event happened in 2123, it definately totally happened in 2123.

    In terms of Junktown... made of the Junk of the pre-war world.

    I have to admit I'm a little out-of-shape in terms of my F1/F2 knowledge. Lost Hills is pre-war, yes, but are most of their outposts and stuff too?

    Someone in Megaton actually talked about those two points:

    * The crater made a naturally defensable / safe position
    * Most of the orginal founders of the city came from people who tried, and failed, to get into Vault 101
    * Most of the people wanted to get rid of the bomb, but the Cult of Atom had started fairly early in the city's development and they wouldn't assist the others if they dared move the bomb

    Quite a few of the ones I've found actually have errors saying "no connection, shutting down". But you're right, for the most part.
  11. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite

    May 18, 2003
    Ruins per se aren't a problem. Wooden ruins or ruins fully stacked with technological marvels and/or supplies are.

    Raiders, uh, raided settlements, they didn't scavenge city remains. The only group to do so in F1 was the group in the Boneyard, and they explicitly mentioned how hard it was to come across good material.

    "Fallout newbies", huh?

    Plants and advanced city-states exist aplenty in F2, 70 years after F1. Have you played the game? F3 takes place a long time after F2, and still feels like the war happened two years before the game started.

    Really, if you're willfully ignoring the evidence, there's no point in debating this further.

    And? It's still a post-war settlement, built from scratch.

    In F1, the laser pistol and a few other things were brotherhood-made. In F2, they did have a few outposts, which were obviously post-war.

    In any case, this is straying from the point at hand. There were no pre-war standing wooden houses and there wasn't this amount of pre-war stuff just lying around everywhere in any of the originals, pretty much everything was scavenged and recycled.

    This is just a bit of a clumsy design decision, as the game would feel much better if it was set precisely a few years after the nuclear war. Hell, there's all the assets in the game right now: Military vehicles, military 'bots, Chinese rifles and apparel... Of course, you wouldn't have schoolbus-colored supermuties nor trashcan-armor BoS groups.

    Yes, yes, I went through that dialogue as well. That still doesn't explain why anyone (after being denied entrance to V101) would rather settle in mudpitville around a nuke rather than a town lying five minutes down the road.
  12. popej

    popej First time out of the vault

    Oct 30, 2008
    One of the most glaring discrepancies is the lack of vegetation. 300 years after the war DC would be covered in forest and grassland. I guess that needs to be overlooked otherwise the whole 'wasteland' aspect wouldn't make much sense but still. :P
  13. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Correction: the Laser Pistol was designed by Vree from pre-War schematics. Their outposts in Fo2 were reactivated pre-War installations (with the possible exception of NCR).

    Yup. Any of the city random encounters showed just how destroyed cities were - remnants of walls sparsely scattered around an area, barely resembling buildings.

    Fuck yes. 2097.
  14. Jahnri

    Jahnri First time out of the vault

    Nov 3, 2008
    Sigh, to tired to discuss. Been working on a VAT mod. All I can say is, meh, different area different rules. Rather then trying to justify why things arent the way they should be. Find ways why they are the way they are. Based on storyline. Not a bad programmer. Although it was bad planning. You just live with what you go I guess.

    As I said above, something happened which wont allow the plants to repopulate. The rules of the Fallout world are different. Mutations are real. Plants didn't repopulate the way they should. All the animals surviving are mutants. It will take HUNDREDS more years for any mutated plants to reappear properly as ecologies as we see now. Those just are realities.

    Mind you some plants, engineered and such, would probably start appearing after human introduction.
  15. Ninjerk

    Ninjerk First time out of the vault

    Nov 8, 2008
    There isn't even a proper food chain. Instead of pretending that there's a good reason for poor design if I just turn enough of my brain off, I think I will hold my game developers to a higher standard.
  16. Elandarex

    Elandarex First time out of the vault

    Nov 9, 2008
    I don't get why more people don't share this attitude. If we keep on telling developers we don't mind bland, nonsensical, trite... I think you get the picture. Nothing will change, and eventually anyone who wants a game with some depth will just be flat out of luck. Standards aren't elitist, they're just preferable to the alternative.
  17. HoKa

    HoKa Still Mildly Glowing

    Jul 23, 2007
    "War. War never changes.

    The Romans waged wars to gather slaves and wealth. Spain built an empire from its lust for gold and territory. Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower.

    But war never changes.

    In the 21st century, war was still waged over the resources that could be acquired. Only this time, the spoils of war were also its weapons: petroleum and uranium.

    For these resources China would invade Alaska; the US would annex Canada; and the European Commonwealth would dissolve into quarreling, bickering nation-states, bent on controlling the last remaining resources on Earth.

    In 2077 the storm of war had come again. In two brief hours most of the planet was reduced to cinders. And from the ashes of nuclear devastation, a new civilization would struggle to arise. A few were able to reach the relative safety of large underground vaults.

    Your family was part of that group that entered Vault 13. Imprisoned safely behind the large vault door, under a mountain of stone, a generation has lived without knowledge of the outside world.

    Life in the about to change."