Thoughts on FO3 (Spoilers)(32hours played so far)(LONG POST)

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by Eternal, Nov 4, 2008.

  1. Eternal

    Eternal Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Nov 4, 2008
    Ok, yes I just made my account a few minutes ago but I've been visiting NMA for years now. I own the original releases of Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 with their original boxes and own the strategy guides for both. I may not have nearly as much experience with FO as most of you may have but I do consider myself a hardcore fan. Ok onto the post.

    I feel that FO3 is a good game, yes it has its flaws, and yes it does have moments where it totally forgets its roots which pisses me off a lot. I feel that Bethesda showed some love for the game but not only did they show the wrong kind of love but the game deserves to be part of the Fallout universe, as a spin-off.

    The game drops you into this 'tutorial' mode the minute you start and you have to play through and escape vault 101, this whole bit so far has felt out of place and could simply have been done in an opening FMV the amount of time you spend inside Vault 101 that are unskipable makes starting a new game with a new plan on how you will approach the game becomes less of a 'new experience' and more of a 'chore.'

    When FO was bought by Bethesda I was firmly in the seat of the 'shit they are going to rape my love' camp. Here is a list of changes to the game I liked, changes they could have made, and things I hated.

    Let’s start out with the negatives and get them out of the way quickly.

    * S.P.E.C.I.A.L. has basically been gutted and the stats really feel pointless except for Strength for carrying things and Intelligence for skill points. A lot of this is probably due to the fact that the game is now a real time FPRpg.

    * First Person RPG, this is a hard one for me, I hate that the game is not a turn based RPG and that Bethesda felt that going with a real time game was an 'evolution' and more 'contemporary' approach to the game. Which effectively is an insult to gamers everywhere by saying that we are too impatient for a turn based game and saying that they are dead is a flat out lie (Strategy Square Based RPGs are HUGE right now on Home Consoles and Hand held Consoles)

    However I was surprised that putting the game into a first person view actually fit the series surprisingly well due to the fact it allowed much more immersion and gave a great sense of SCALE of the wastelands. I feel a first person TURN BASED rpg would have been not only interesting it also would have been fun, reminds me a bit of the old 'Eye Of The Beholder' game.

    * The speech system. Now I felt they did a fairly good job with the trees depth and breadth and even the occasional conversations between NPCs. The problem is how the NPCs react to you, when they see you eying something they all use one of 3 different phrases recorded in a limited 3 voices to say not to do that, not only that but often the NPCs will talk to you outside of a conversation tree, but the phrases they speak tend to be very limited (While I was exploring Murray the Ghoul Druggie's little house, and robbing him blind he he..., he continually would say one of 2-3 phrases basically every 30seconds to a minute. It got to be very annoying.

    * The difficulty is MUCH too low, super mutants and centaurs were something that until I got some Power Armor in the originals I would do EVERYTHING I could to avoid them like the plague. However these super mutants feel basically like people but with a little bit more life and ALOT easier to hit. The ability to take out a camp of 5-6 super mutants really isn't much of a feat anymore (and yes I am playing the game on the hardest difficulty)

    * Traits/Tags/Perks, or rather the changes to the system. Traits were something that could easily change your entire experience in the wastelands, while some were obviously better than others the good mixed with the bad was simply a design feature that most games tend to avoid nowadays, rather than forcing a player to consider the FULL affects of their choices most games today tend to ONLY reward players. The amount of perks is nice (always could use more) however I feel that they should have spaced out perks to every other level, and raised the level cap to at LEAST 50 (reducing the HP you gain per level, and increasing the skill cap to 250 with 1 point costing 2 skill points after 175). Tags, where did they go? No longer is a tag really a defining character choice since you don't gain skill points in that ability at 2x speed, rather just a simple +15skill points to that ability, bad choice in my opinion.

    * Resources seem plentiful, every building seems to have running water and electricity, remember how hard it was to get water back in FO1? Where are the torches like the originals? How are people getting enough fuel to constantly run these generators in places that aren't even populated? Poor design in my opinion, while having radiated water regenerate HP was a cool idea, the amount of rads that most water has is very low, making it really not a big deal. Also you seem to regenerate health when sleeping almost a superhuman speed.

    * AI. While FO was never known for its strategic and intelligent AI, the game was also made in 1997 so it had a bit of an excuse. Today however there is little excuse for enemies not working in squads and enemies charging directly at you with a nailed board while you are wielding a minigun. On top of that, maybe its just my experience so far but enemies not only seem unable to accidently hit their teammates (as a poorly thought out shot in FO1-2 could do) and they also never seem to run out of ammo (easy way out in terms of design choices)

    * Interactive environment, while some parts of the world can be simply knocked over or picked up, what happened to being able to blow up a locked door because your lock pick skill was too low? Why don’t radios shut off / blow up when I shoot them? Why can’t I turn off a generator to be able to shut off the lights to increase my sneak? Why are there bodies hanging from meat hooks and chain but I can’t shoot them down, shoot the corpse, or even so much as check the corpse for loot? Why don’t Nuka-Cola bottles break when shot or dropped from a 2story high window? So far the only real interactivity I’ve found is that cars blow up (waaaaaay too easily though) and I’ve come across 2 rooms in the game with gas leaks that can spark an explosion (awesome looking when it happens).

    * Inability to kill key characters or children. By using Oblivions ‘knock out’ system the developers took the easy way out when it comes to scene and situation writing. Rather than coming up with what happens if I just kill my Dad or the Overseer before the whole incident occurs that gets you set out in the wasteland, they instead chose to have that NPC simply be knocked out. The knock out system ruins a lot of the immersion in the game, as well as the illusion of ‘freedom of choice’

    * Battle music, take it out, it doesn’t belong inside fallout, least of all in the form of ‘booming movie soundtrack’ style.

    While this is by no means EVERYTHING I didn't like, its the only non-nitpicky issues (like the fact that picking up objects is basically useless, or that objects on shelves kind of.. 'float' above it, or that NPCs seem to glide rather than walk.


    Things I did like

    • Soundtrack, while the volume of music is fairly sparse the songs chosen are very good and a perfect fit for the game and series as a whole.

    • The consolidation and usefulness of skills previously useless. Such as ‘repair’ and ‘science’.

    • The ‘minigames’ used for Lock Picking and Hacking

    • The level of detail put into the game.

    • The depth and breadth of the game is HUGE, I always felt that the first 2 fallouts most of the cities (abandoned or otherwise) were too small, such as New Reno which if I recall only was about 4-5 blocks at most. Not only is the main map just LITTERED with places to explore (many of them similar but not the same) but inside and underneath the buildings exist giant areas to explore. While the game certainly would feel smaller if you actually could run rather than tip toe or power walk, even if you could run it STILL would be considered almost TOO BIG.

    • Join me Luke, come to the gray side. I always felt that one of the defining factors of Fallout was when you found the situations where neither side could be considered sin-free by any standards. And it was up to you to decide which was the lesser of two evils, or the greater of two goods. While just like the originals, most of the situations are pretty obvious (slaver vs not slaver ect) Bethsoft did a fairly good job of pinning down a couple of those gray areas. The Arefu vs The Family situation is a good example.

    • Personalities, you come across a fairly broad spectrum of people, anyone from the Ditzy Moira to the Asshole Jericho to the completely lost from reality Belaila (want some of my chocolate chip cookies? *hands you a bent tin can*).

    • Giant Ants. While I’m not huge on some of the additions to the Fallout bestiary (Yau Guai or however its spelled), I’m actually surprised Giant Ants never made it into the originals they are a CLASSIC 1950s horror flick type monster (course the movie versions were like… 50ft tall) see the movie ‘Them!’ (1954)

    • Traps, while I haven’t come across too many of them, they have been more abundant than in FO1 or 2, almost more than both combined. Also I have found an interesting variety of them (trip wire, automatic shotgun, bear trap, pitching machine, mines, and an exploding baby carriage)

    • Bottlecaps, plain and simple, they ditched em in FO2 but you all know that no matter how much you think Bethesda F’d up on FO3 you can’t deny that going back to the cap was the right choice.

    • The workshop system and the makeshift weapons you can throw together with it.

    Things they could have done or done better.

    • Increase the level cap and increase the amount of experience required to level.
    • Allow you to customize your characters body type (height/weight/shoulders/cup size/waist size/scars)
    • Increase the amount that crippled limbs affect the game (why can I cripple both of an enemies arms and yet he can still use a SMG? Or why is it that if I cripple one arm and he drops his gun that within a few seconds he can pick it up again and start using it even though his arms are crippled? And crippling peoples legs don’t slow them enough, and crippled heads don’t affect their aiming too much either.)
    • Why can’t I open any car trunks? That’s such a minor thing that still bugs me, that none of the cars in the game have trunks.
    • Increase the amount of situations you can use diplomacy to get through
    • Allow for more than 1 marker to be placed at a time so that you can in affect create a pathway to follow. (A to B to C to D)
    • Rather than simply having the fast travel system being instant except for a loading screen, when you select a place for quick travel you get the classic dashed line showing you traveling from the point you are at to the point you selected, they could even use that time to be loading the area you selected to quick travel to! This is a minor issue that I feel would have been a nice throwback to the originals.
    • More music
    • More companions (and hopefully more than 1 at a time)
    • More extensive gibbing system, while the current one in affect isn’t BAD per se, its just repetitive. I feel there is a simple solution to this issue, have 3-4 different gibbing animations for each body part and have the game choose one either randomly, or have it choose one based off the damage of the shot (more damaging shot = more gruesome gib). Here is an example, 3 different ‘head shot’ animations(not including the current decapitation one)
    1. Shot takes of a chunk of his head (similar to the torso removal in FO1-2)
    2. Shot causes his head to flat out explode, leaving behind gibs but no actual head
    3. The back of the head explodes outward leaving a gaping hole in the back of the head but the front is relatively intouched.

    • More fanbase interaction, this is something that I cannot stress enough. Interplay was known to get a lot of feedback from its fans on the BBS and would regularly communicate with the fans. Bethesda however is a lot more secretive about their ideas and plans for game development and seems fairly disinterested in using the fanbase as a tool to expand upon the FO universe as well as to help with new ideas for changes. The ‘perk contest’ was a good start, but even then it wasn’t nearly enough, and it was STILL too secretive (by making it a contest they had to keep their ideas hidden, and they didn’t seem interested in instituting anyone elses ideas.
    • Bring in some of the original developers, even if just on a consultant basis. If Da Vinci was painting the Mona Lisa but stoped halfway, would you finish it without at least getting input from him about his ideas and plans for it?

    Sorry for the mile long post, I know 95% of you will never read it, but I’ve always been a rabid fan of Fallout, and I wanted to post my current feelings on the latest game in this fantastic universe.
  2. God is Dog backwards

    God is Dog backwards Mildly Dipped

    Jul 25, 2003
    I kind of agree. Just picking up on the variety of characters point: I do agree that there is a nice variety and plenty of people to feel sympathetic towards. I've been thinking on and off all day about the (minor spoilers) Goth girl in Big Town who only comes out at night, writes emo poetry, has dated (and dumped) everyone in town and speaks like, totally like this. Then she hit on me because I complimented her pale makeup and next thing I had a girlfriend who'd go out and buy me presents from time to time. Haha.

    I thought this was a funny character yet not slapstick; it worked well in the context of everyone else in the town being pretty grim (one character, who's watched his friends be captured by slavers or supermutants, instead of 'bye', ends conversation with 'I wish I was dead.')

    As I'm sure I've said before: the game is fun. Bethsoft have at least reached and perhaps surpassed my expectations, which were nowhere near as low as many here.
  3. Eternal

    Eternal Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Nov 4, 2008
    True, but the Goth girl is definatly an example of Beth raping the FO soul. Goth girls are very much a 90s/00s thing rather than your stereotypical 50s girl who wants to go to the Soda Shoppe and get a Malt.


    However, they did put in a Drive-In movie theater which is something I'm amazed wasn't in the first 2 fallouts, I just wish there was a snack stand you could have explored.
  4. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Just a note: Fallout was made in 1997.
  5. Eternal

    Eternal Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Nov 4, 2008
    Thanks, it was a typo.

    p.s. I'm amazed anyone is even reading this wall of text.
  6. Hroesvelgr

    Hroesvelgr First time out of the vault

    Oct 29, 2008
    That goth girl character was obviously written by someone who had experience with such relationships, and I say this from experience myself. I knew a girl who was EXACTLY like that... at first over infatuated and obsessive and then self-righteously "betrayed" when the people and things around her didn't live up to her self-handicapped expectations. And, like one of the Big Town residents says if you ask about her, "You'd think a girl like that would be more... you know, adventurous. That's a dry well, my friend."

    Freaking spot on.
  7. chaosapiant

    chaosapiant It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 30, 2008
    Just a small nitpick that I'm surprised no one noticed. Giant ants were an enemy in F2 as well as F3. Not fire breathing ones though. I wish I could ride one.
  8. RBurns722

    RBurns722 First time out of the vault

    Oct 31, 2008
    i particularly miss geckos, and the interesting addon skills like skinning...but then again, when you max out repair there is NO need at all to worry about caps, you make hundreds of thousands
  9. TakLoufer

    TakLoufer First time out of the vault

    Jan 5, 2005
    Well, I've been playing it for a few hours (killed my first Behemoth) and the best thing I can say for it is that it isn't as bad as I thought it would be.

    That being said, I thought it was going to be pretty bad.

    I mean, I half expected it to have rap music or a bitchin' rock soundtrack.

    I'm not going to go through all the things I don't like as that has been covered repeatedly in other threads, but I will point out one thing that bothers me and in and of itself makes the game inferior:

    There's to much combat.

    In FO1 and 2 while travelling the waste you went days (in game) without coming across encounters. In FO3, you can be attacked by raiders, walk a few feet down a street and be attacked by a supermutant, and walk a little bit further and be attacked by ghouls. It's like every street in DC has someone waiting to kill you.

    Bear in mind in FO1 you walk through the Glow and only be attacked if you repair the generator and reactivate the robots. Would the Glow have the same eiree ambiance if you had to fight waves of ghouls every step of the way?

    AFAICT playing pacifist is impossible. This is squarely a FPS first and RPG second.
  10. Wurm

    Wurm First time out of the vault

    Apr 30, 2008
    Re: Thoughts on FO3 (Spoilers)(32hours played so far)(LONG P

    Unless your smart and make a dedicated game save right before you leave 101 so you can make as many new Characters, as often as you want, quick and easy.

  11. oihrebwe

    oihrebwe Still Mildly Glowing

    Jul 15, 2008
    Re: Thoughts on FO3 (Spoilers)(32hours played so far)(LONG P

    not to spoil anything but some of your actions in the vault (e.g. whether or not you killed the overseer) become important later on, so saving at the exit doesn't work as well as it did in oblivion
  12. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    Oct 29, 2008
    ^ Aliens and centaurs in an oil tanker ?!
    Entering combat because of some stupid rat ?!
    Temple of saves ?!
    Would anyone in a post-apocalyptic future take their turn to to kill you ?!

    Turned based combat makes no sense really, it's just not real; it's just as ridiculous of a gimmick as the MIRV, if not more so, with the sole difference being that it entertains a different crowd.
  13. e_X_plosive

    e_X_plosive First time out of the vault

    Oct 30, 2008
    You liked traps, yeah they're fun, but tell me pls why my char with PER 10 can't detect them if i don't see the mines myself? This is a RPG afterall!

    Damn, wanted to write some other things, but i totally forgot what :roll: .

    Yay, i remember: WHERE THE FUCK IS MY GAUSS GUN!!!!?????
  14. Wurm

    Wurm First time out of the vault

    Apr 30, 2008
    Re: Thoughts on FO3 (Spoilers)(32hours played so far)(LONG P

    Oh I'm sure that it does... but I was talking about trying out builds until you find one you like.

    I restarted 3 or 4 times until I went with the "Good"

    Lockpick, Stealth, Small Guns toon I have now.

    When I choose to play "Evil" I'll start all the way from the beginning again just to see the dialog changes when for example, I let the cockroaches eat Butch's mom.
  15. Eternal

    Eternal Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Nov 4, 2008
    Yes but that 'different crowd' happens to be the ones who kept Fallout alive. Not only that but its none-the-less what the series combat system was supposed to be.

    Would you change a Calvin and Hobbes comic, where they are speeding down the hill in their wagon, and make the last panel of the comic instead a CARtoon?
  16. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Not this shit again.

    Either you are stupid, or simply don't know what Turn Based is. It's an abstract representation of combat, a more realistic and tactical one, since there's no "run up to the enemy and burst" bullshit prevalent in real-time combat.

    What matters is player's tactical skill, not his monkey-like agility.
  17. Spoonfeed

    Spoonfeed It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Nov 3, 2008
    "monkey-like agility" can i nominate win of the year?
  18. Crowley

    Crowley It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 12, 2003
    Re: Thoughts on FO3 (Spoilers)(32hours played so far)(LONG P

    How is the gas still running in 200+ years old ruins?
  19. Eternal

    Eternal Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Nov 4, 2008
    Re: Thoughts on FO3 (Spoilers)(32hours played so far)(LONG P

    That is a very good point that I didn't consider but would fall under my 'wtf too many resources' section (Water / Generator Power)
  20. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    Oct 29, 2008

    You call me stupid and yet you believe in actual battle situation some "run up to the enemy and burst" (throwing grenades included) and monkey agility wouldn't be necessary ?!

    TBS is some pen and paper geeks chess form when they had nothing better then to imagine D&D. Nice for 1974 but outdated today.

    I personally think a VATS solution combined with the "No GOD mode VATS" MOD is an acceptable solution.
    I make my "move(s)" so does the enemy/enemies and we all take proper damage in the same times.

    That's not to say TBS doesn't have its merits or place in the game-world; but when outside games like in the Civilization series and Total War (world/campaign 4x4 map; witch I personally love) it shows show flaws.

    This is where games like Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway from the first/third tactical-shooter perspective and Commandos 3 from an isometric-like RTT perspective really kills Fallout 1and 2's TBS combat mode (BiA:HH shames Fallout 3 BTW).

    Why ?!

    Because fighting a bunch or raiders is real-time-tactical combat, not turn-based-strategy combat.