Weapon mod coming up, including Bozar done right.

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by Magnus, May 7, 2008.

  1. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    I did a whole lot of things yesterday that I plan to upload tonight.
    By tomorrow, the mod will include:

    Throwing Knives do 5-13 damage but are throwable only. Real throwing knives barely have any shafts and are hard to cut with, meant to be used as projectiles instead of melee weapons. I've never seen a throwing knife that looks like the one in F2. The higher damage is meant to simulate the fact that a thrown knife is much harder to evade or block than a thrusted spear or a swung combat knife. Sadly, I cannot set different damage for thrown and thrusted variants of the same weapon, such as the Spear.

    Grenades do around 50-100 damage. Along with Molotovs, they also get a +40% bonus to hit, because you have to be real thick to miss with a weapon that does splash damage and scatters shrapnel all over. I'm tired of seeing grenades "miss", exploding right on top of enemies/doors and doing no damage. This way, they will almost always hit, but the low minimum damage simulates the fact that the damage done from a grenade is hard to predict. Molotov damage is less variable, around 30-50. Sadly, setting the Molotov to do Flame damage (it currently does Explosion) removes its explosion graphic.

    Plasma Grenades and Pulse Grenades get a +20% bonus to hit, for the same reason as above. The lower amount is due to their area of effect being smaller (plasma grenades rely on heat damage from their ejected plasma, but do not really explode.) Plasma grenades also do much higher damage, around 80-120. The high minimum damage is because the damage from plasma is more predictable.

    Laser pistol and its upgrade does 22-34 damage, costs 4 ap to fire and are equipped with a "laser sight" as seen on their view model (same hit % in light and dark conditions). Plasma pistol and its upgrade does 29-38 damage, but its range has been reduced a bit. Laser Rifle and its upgrade do 35-80 damage. I have not changed the Plasma Rifles.

    Things I've begun doing but have not yet finished (will not be updated until the end of next week):

    Almost every melee weapon redone for consistency and balance. Sharp weapons (knives, spears) will generally do low minimum damage and high maximum damage, because you can cause lethal wounds with a knife/spear but also miss with it. Blunt weapons (knuckles, hammers, clubs) will do medium min-damage and a bit higher max-damage, since it's hard to miss with them but also hard to cause a good critical.

    I also imagine a weapon progression like this, listed by weapon damage. Remember that a weapon might do lower damage than another, but a lower AP cost would make up for that:

    Blunt: Brass knuckles < Club(police baton) < Wrench < Crowbar <Power Fist < Louisville Slugger < Sledgehammer < Mega Power Fist < Super Sledge

    Sharp: Sharpened Pole < Knife < Spiked Knuckles < Spear < Combat Knife < Shiv/Switchblade < Sharpened Spear < Little Jesus < Wakizashi Blade(it's a small sword, not a knife) < Ripper

    Generally speaking in AP costs: ,
    Automatic pistols/energy pistols/automatic rifles/SMGs/thrown weapons 4AP,
    Regular pistols/regular rifles/energy rifles 5AP,
    All bursts 6AP

    There will be exceptions, like the Turbo Plasma Rifle, which has an AP cost of 4 rather than 5.

    Weapon damage will be rebalanced. The Sniper Rifle and Desert Eagle are too weak, and the Sawnoff Shotgun is just useless.

    Weapon prices will be rebalanced. I'm talking about really common weapons (like the combat shotgun, H&K CAWS, so on) selling for many thousands. This should help reduce the excessive cash pileup every F2 player experiences from Vault City and onwards.

    I'm not really planning on editing anything else than weapons. The mod will be compatible with Killap's patch/project for all eternity, as he edits very few weapons, and anyway I've incorporated his changes into the weapons I've edited.

    Killap:
    If you can send me your edited source scripts and dialogue files for Algernon, I want to make him require one load of Junk parts to make an upgrade, while being compatible with your patch. That means you eventually have to pay for upgrading a weapon.
     
  2. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Isn't this a little bit overpowered?
     
  3. Elitech

    Elitech Still Mildly Glowing

    282
    Apr 22, 2008
    Will it be compatible with killaps Restoration Project?

    @Lex

    Well, I don't think so - the Bozar, after all, SHOULD be all high and mighty, the end product of a long process of development & weapon refining. Not to mention "the best sniper in the world"...
     
  4. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Well, yes. But the Bozar is already the weapon with the most power in Fallout 2.
     
  5. Elitech

    Elitech Still Mildly Glowing

    282
    Apr 22, 2008
    Yeah, but if I recall correctly, it has "burst", and this will be taken out in this mod...
     
  6. Silencer

    Silencer Night Watchman Staff Member Admin

    Nov 7, 2003
  7. Elitech

    Elitech Still Mildly Glowing

    282
    Apr 22, 2008
    Sounds good, killap compatible :-)

    Just 1 question - do you need to re-check it for compatibility when RP 1.2 gets out or is it compatible with RP by default?

    Also, on another note - if all laser weapons are upgraded... What's with those ppl who had them but are not meant to be so feared as salvatores?
     
  8. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Uh, what? 3 AP for a shot from A FUCKING SNIPER RIFLE?

    Whatever you're smoking, lay it off kid.
     
  9. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    It is better than the current 6 ap for 50 shots... which is 0.12 ap per shot... from a sniper rifle. The low ap cost is meant to simulate a weapon where you just pull the trigger as many times as you like and fire as many accurate bullets with minimum recoil as you like - an autosniper. Ever play Counter-Strike? That's what I'm aiming to create. The Bozar now does 100-135 damage and is single shot only. Let's say you have 9 AP and fire three shots. That's 300-405 damage distributed to three targets. With the original Bozar, you would have used 6 AP on 50 shots with 25-35 damage each, giving a total damage in the thousands, but the guy right in front of you would get shredded while the ones behind him might receive around 50 damage. The new system is a more accurate representation of an automatic sniper rifle. The Bozar now has somewhat less stopping power than the high-tech Gauss Rifle, but you can fire more shots per round.
     
  10. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    This is not accurate, this IS RETARDED. Dedicated semiautomatic sniper rifles in Fallout use six AP per shot without targeting. An automatic sniper rifle should lower the cost AT BEST by a single AP, arriving at five AP per shot, which, surprise, is the cost of a single shot in all automatic weapons in Fallout.

    You are creating a totally imbalanced weapon - with Fast Shot and Bonus Rate of Fire the AP cost will be down to a single AP per shot.

    Listen, the issue is balance. You can throw your maths around, but that doesn't change the fact that you're creating a retardedly overpowered weapon, whose characteristics DO. NOT. FIT.

    I retooled the Bozar also, but in the image of a sniper rifle for the Big Guns - high AP cost, but also insane damage, coupled with a revamped 14mm Auto ammunition.

    EDIT: And just so you know, Counter-Strike stupidity has no place in Fallout.
     
  11. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    Bozar

    Taken to heed, the Bozar now has an AP cost of 4. But I think you should post your opinions in a slightly less flaming choice of words, especially since this is my mod. Moderator or not.
     
  12. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    Bozar again

    Scratch it, the Bozar stays the way I've planned.

    The Sniper Rifle in F2 looks like it requires time to steady your aim before and after each shot. That's why it costs 6 AP to fire, but I plan to change that to 5 in my mod.

    According to the game picture and the general idea of high-tech snipers, the Bozar has semi-automatic fire, perfect balance and recoil dampening, which means you don't have to lose sight of your target or correct your aim once you've got it.

    That's why the AP cost for my Bozar is even lower than a normal pistol, which is easy to aim with, but still has the time-consuming recoil and shakes in your hand until you steady it. I've reduced energy weapon AP cost for the same reason: no recoil.

    If you take time and read my simple maths below, you will see why the new Bozar is not overpowered when it comes to damage:

    The default Bozar guzzles 25 shots per burst, with each shot doing 25-35 damage. That's 625-875 total damage in theory.

    Let's say these bullets are spread out to three enemies, and that all of them hit. Two enemies would then get 8 bullets, the unlucky third gets 9.

    The bullets could do 35 damage each:
    8 or 9 bullets hitting * 35 max damage = 280 maximum damage to two enemies and 315 to the unlucky guy.

    This is not counting in hit percentage, armor modifiers or enemies standing in front of each other, in which case the bullets would be distributed very unevenly. By the time you have the Bozar, you are usually fighting enemies in Combat/Powered armor, which reduces the damage quite a bit, but try taking on a couple of slaves or civilians, and the damage quickly adds up.

    My new Bozar does 100-135 damage per shot. With 10AP, you would get 3 shots per round:
    3 shots * 135 maximum damage = 405 hypothetical total damage. The player would then be able to distribute this damage as he likes.

    In the above scenario, if you decided to damage each enemy evenly, you would fire one shot at each. That would give 135 maximum damage to each enemy, as opposed to 280 + 280 + 315 with the default Bozar.

    With Fast Shot and Bonus Rate Of Fire, you would get 10 shots. At best, two of the enemies would get 3 bullets while the third gets 4.

    The bullets could all do 135 damage:
    3 or 4 bullets per enemy * 135 maximum damage = 405 max damage for two enemies and 540 for one. This sounds like a lot, but with the original Bozar you would get 2 bursts and 560/630 maximum damage with just one of the AP perks above.

    As you can see, my Bozar is actually less powerful now, but it acts more like a real world automatic sniper and gives more freedom to distribute damage between targets.

    And I chose the autosniper in Counter-Strike as an example of the weapon I'd like the Bozar to be, not because I like that game. I'll use the Precision Rifle in Deus Ex with Shifter instead, that better?
     
  13. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Re: Bozar again

    The Sniper Rifle in Fallout 1 and 2 costs 7 APs, as far as I can remember.
     
  14. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    Which unfeared people is this you're talking about? The Enclave? The mutants in the military base? I guess the BoS are not feared, but they are still respected because of their high-tech weaponry.

    San Francisco is the only place where ordinary people have access to energy weapons, but even so, you never see civilians or guards there using them. I guess San Francisco is a bit out of tune, anyway.

    My point with upgrading laser weapons, besides bringing them back in use by the player, was that the Laser Pistols the Salvatores brandish actually did less damage than a good combat shotgun, which makes me wonder why they are regarded as superior to the other families in terms of weaponry.
     
  15. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    Re: Bozar again

    In any case, it does too little damage to warrant such an enormous AP cost.
     
  16. Elitech

    Elitech Still Mildly Glowing

    282
    Apr 22, 2008
    That has already been discussed - http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42157&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60, pages 4 and 5, respectively.

    On another note, that burst you keep showing about only works like you said if those 3 are close to you. Try bursting at 20 hexes, write us the dmg you do then and compare it to yours.

    Also, changing weapon damage does kinda "turn the balance" - if you, let's say theoretically, increase weap dmg by *2, shouldn't you at least modify the armor def value by *1.5?

    If you just do weapons and neglect armor, some pieces of the game will be... well, unfair (and I don't mean for the player). Example - you can steel a Bozar from the guards in front of the weapon dealer tent in NCR "courtyard" (I forgot the traders name). And by that time, let's say you're doing the VC scout to NCR quest... You ain't got no power armor, no nothin, just plain simple metal armor. Including all those you gotta deal with. But that's beside the point.

    To summarize: I agree Bozar should be changed (i. e. no burst fire etc) - but I believe this one is too strong. Salvatores laser weapons should be changed (see the above link for ideas), but you have to keep in mind the balance.

    All in all, it's your mod, good luck with it. Nobody's gotta download it if they don't want to. All this is just constructive criticism (I hope) so the mod and, overall, the game would look & feel better.

    If you don't want me to write, write so in your next post.

    Cheers
     
  17. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Magnus, are you purposefully ignoring what I wrote?

    You are completely disregarding the mechanics of Fallout, where firearms really have a high AP cost. You're making a fucking rifle easier to wield, use and fire than a goddamn brass knuckles.

    I'm feeling generous, so here's what the Bozar is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82

    Also, any calculations you do are completely irrelevant, as Fallout weapons weren't created according to any mathematical formula.

    Now, let me address the points separately:

    What? Excuse me, are you dense? Bozar has absolutely no automatic target acquisition system that adjusts the weapon's position whenever the targetted enemy moves. It's an anti-materiel rifle with a scope, not an automatic cannon.

    YOU aim the rifle, and the AP cost includes aiming, steadying the weapon, firing, absorbing the recoil... it's not equivalent to a swing (3 AP).

    Theoretically the Mega Power Fist is the most powerful weapon in the game, why care about anything else?

    Seriously though, have you actually tested the weapon? There are way more factors in Fallout than your half-arsed "maths" cover. Example: I changed the Bozar to employ 14mm ammo, which I also changed to accurately reflect it's nature.

    Effect? While theoretically the 14mm ammo in my version simply lowered the DT/DR factor of the enemy (and me), in conjunction with weapons using it the result was devastating, as 14mm Pistols carve through power armour with ease.

    Raiders are quite nasty now, but Marcus with a Bozar is a nice counter.
     
  18. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    The stealing of this particular Bozar has been disabled by Killap. And besides, there are tons of other ways to break the game balance. How about pumping up Energy Weapons and going to New Reno right after Klamath, getting the Electronic Lockpick and a Pulse Grenade, using them back in the Toxic Caves and picking up the weapons there?

    I have now set the Bozar's damage to 75-110, and it will stay there.

    Regarding weapons with armour in mind:
    When I increase a weapon's damage, everyone else's version of that weapon also gets higher damage, and chances are some of those are going to be used against me. Also, I've mostly increased the damage from melee, energy and throwing weapons, and only enough so that they may compete with others. I have no intention of making the game significantly harder.
     
  19. Elitech

    Elitech Still Mildly Glowing

    282
    Apr 22, 2008
    As far as I know, nope. I stole it in the v1.1...

    Agreed.

    Though you still didn't tell me the burst dmg of original bozar on 20 hexes... and comparisment of that overall dmg to your overall damage.

    You can change game difficulty in options, not relevant. It's about balance. IMO, Energy weapons compete with regular since armors (most, if not all) have lower protection from laser + plasma weap than standard... True/false? If true, then when you increase dmg ONLY for laser+plasma, you really don't keep the balance. Else, I'm plain wrong :-)
     
  20. Magnus

    Magnus Water Chip? Been There, Done That
    Modder

    953
    Dec 6, 2007
    Bozar againnnnnn

    Sir M. Grizzly

    Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I am profoundly sorry that someone has taken control over your computer and forced you to download this mod. I will now turn the Bozar into a real weapon and shoot my hard drive to bits so this may not happen again. You are of course encouraged to keep downrating my work and glorifying your own, preferably in my thread.

    Yours faithfully,
    Magnus