What did Bethesda actually do better than Black Isle?

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by Nodder, Nov 2, 2008.

  1. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Actually, this isn't a step forward. The idea of giving NPCs goals and means to achieve them isn't exactly new or exciting. It's a very simple form of AI, and apparently a very broken one at that.
    The fact that Gothic got much better results with Scripted AI shows what they did wrong.

    Also, the line between a scripted AI and Radiant AI is nearly invisible. The only thing that's different between the two is the means of coding the script.
     
  2. marko2te

    marko2te Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    369
    Sep 24, 2008

    Worlds of Gothic look actually alive and far better then either Morrowind, Oblivion or F3
     
  3. bhlaab

    bhlaab Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    463
    Oct 30, 2008
     
  4. sentorio

    sentorio First time out of the vault

    37
    Oct 16, 2008
    But there is a big missing part in the inventory. There is no detailed information about guns, or no proper information about armours.

    It doesn't tell me if the gun has a good range, or what's the damage res. of an armour. Also no detailed background about the guns either.
     
  5. bhlaab

    bhlaab Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    463
    Oct 30, 2008
    It does tell you the DR of armor
     
  6. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt I should set a custom tit

    Oct 28, 2008
    If you think that Sneak and lockpick were useless in FO1+2 then you never tried to make them useful. A character with Sneak+Lockpick+melee or small guns can rape any major base in the games better than a str-oriented character. Not to mention some very big stashes only available through lockpick.

    What does lockpick in FO3 do for you? Nothing really, EVERY important door has a key to it somewhere, and most of the time its a little extra minor loot anyway.

    Throwing was kind of useless in FO1 until endgame, but i can really see myself using a throwing-oriented chara in FO2
     
  7. Lucifer Sam

    Lucifer Sam First time out of the vault

    4
    Nov 3, 2008
    like i said. in my game the AI went completely bonkers only once. but from things i read in the forum i can understand that some people don't really see it with the same eyes i am when a whole town starts killing each other or npc's walk against/stare at the wall for minutes. but at least the do somethings out of the ordinary while gothic has the same old song every playtrough.

    i'd like to argue against it, but beth has shown to be quite incooperative in providing me with any arguments besides hype fabricating trailers.

    well...they... they flank you and use grenades to smoke you out of cover!

    @marko: on the outside, maybe. but as soon as you dig a little deeper gothic was your 0815 fantasy world with evil wizards/demons and holy paladins. the first two games had a nice flair to it nut after a while i got really sick of hearing "bleib stehn du lump!" and other "gritty" comments of the characters and the repetive chat from khorinis inhabitants. it came alive on screen, but stayed stonecold in my heart and head.
     
  8. Touquet

    Touquet Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    328
    Apr 20, 2007
    Perhaps it's already been said but,
    Beth do some kind of a good Fallout shooter with what they already have.
    Some of the spirit is there I must admit but I'm still "wishing" more of the game.
    For the AI, I have some bug like those in Oblivion, critter are not moving... Target practice! But they add an AI.
     
  9. MisterBibs

    MisterBibs First time out of the vault

    18
    Oct 31, 2008
    Let's see...

    * Like the OP, merging First Aid and Doctor. I've always felt that FA and Doctor as seperate skills would be fine in a tabletop RPG (where the DM can specifically define a specific injury and a specific way of healing it, which would need a specific skill), in computer RPGs, it's all about getting your HP higher.

    * Much more immersive.

    * Each city / major ruin has a drastically higher 'personality' than F1 and F2's did. I suppose a lot of this is about graphics, though.

    * Bethesda made the Deathclaws actually scary. F1 and F2? Plasma rifle to the eyes, they never get in range. F3? In my experience, they see you before you see them, they run really fast, hit really hard, and have a tendency to kill Dogmeat very quickly. (In other words, one must reloard.)

    There's more, but I was just reading the Fallout wiki on something and I wanna check it out, heh.
     
  10. sentorio

    sentorio First time out of the vault

    37
    Oct 16, 2008
    Sorry, my bad. I thought DR was conditions sort of information, now I figured out it's related with the condition but does not imply the current condition which make sense (just like in guns). Still missing range and descriptions though...
     
  11. Erny

    Erny It Wandered In From the Wastes

    180
    Nov 2, 2008
    The sad thing is, there is not much else :(

    And I fully agree that the overall interface stuffed into a small PIPboy window under several layers is horrible. Screams 'made for console'. Where is a hotkey for maps?

    And I miss the item pictures and descriptions too
     
  12. Slaughter Manslaught

    Slaughter Manslaught Vault Senior Citizen

    Dec 11, 2006
    I agree. Seeing the character sheet in ONE WINDOW is not a bad idea. In fact, it's pretty good.
     
  13. popej

    popej First time out of the vault

    82
    Oct 30, 2008
    The potential is there, I mean there is no denying the fact that Beth's engine could be used to make a fantastic Fallout game. They just managed to forget about the depth, humour and human element that characterised Fo3's predeccessors.

    Some guy on the Bethesda forums put it perfectly....

    Fallout 3 is like an offline MMORPG, it seems like the goal is not to enjoy the storyline, atmosphere and immersion. Instead the goal is to complete side quests in order to get a virtual house, fill it with virtual furniture, marry a virtual wife and have a virtual dog follow you about.

    Those weren't his exact words but I think he hit the nail on the head. A vast open sandbox world is great but you can't sacrifice depth and character to have it. Theres very little direction in Fallout 3, the main quest is just kinda, "meh, so what?" It's just like one of the many other fedex/kill monster quests that grace the game.

    While there should be an option to try and progress through the main quest early in the game, it shouldn't actually be easy or even possible until you've gained the experience and gone around doing all the other things in the game world. This way its channeling you towards a higher purpose. Instead they've simpily made the same mistake that they made with Oblivion all over again and we're left with a universe with no character as a consequence.

    Of course as far as Bethesda are concerned it wasn't a mistake because they'll be making millions... I sometimes think that their main source of inspiration for Oblivion and Fallout 3 weren't the TES games & Fallout 1 & 2 respectively, I think that their main source of inspiration was the f***ing Sims!
     
  14. madmaligor

    madmaligor First time out of the vault

    22
    Oct 24, 2008
    Heres to hoping that they listen and dig a lot deeper in that respect. /cheer

    Though in a weird way I actually am having a bit of fun decorating my shack....the Z key is your friend! But your right, its a lot closer to the Sims than is comfortable.

    On a side note - Another thing they did very well is traps. I actually cuss out loud "Oh Fu#%" when I hear that beep beep from a hidden mine in the grass, or the "ting" of the trip wire I didn't pay attention to. So far I have ran into a pretty decent collection of traps, from wires to mines to snares to rigged computer terminals. Oh and that baby carriage thing...the first time I saw one and went up for a closer look to see what a dead nuked baby looked like...I thought to myself "Why is it blinking?"
     
  15. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    91
    Oct 29, 2008


    If you talk about F1 I might agree to some level, but F2 ?!

    Also in F1/F2 you could skip the main quest (it's ladder) even more that in F3.

    You could marry a virtual wife and have a virtual dog follow you about in F1/F2. F2 pioneered gay/lesbian marriage, and also you could sell you other half to the slavers.

    So what are you talking about, less options, a liniar game ?!
     
  16. Ihniwid

    Ihniwid It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 30, 2008
    Yeah the baby carriage!! I found one too and thought "Oh cool lets see what a ghoul baby looks like" and then yeah the beeps started and I scratched my head...died a few seconds later.

    I agree the traps so far have been really nifty. The rigged shotty at the front door is also pretty cool. Its in a church near megaton, I'm sure a bunch of you have found it.
     
  17. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt I should set a custom tit

    Oct 28, 2008
    This:

     
  18. Docnemo

    Docnemo First time out of the vault

    6
    Nov 4, 2008
    I'm sorry but I strongly disagree here.

    Melee combat, like it was in Morrowind, is a clickfest, it plain sucks, it is unfun, it involves no strategy, and is especially bad when you consider the animations.
    Range combat is equally bad ; it's spam click with very little else. When playing a FPS, I know I can kill that NPC with 2 headshots using my shotgun, and that other one with 1, while in the meantime destroying that tank by using a grenade. Hence, I will use some strategy to take them out quickly before retreating. In Fallout 3 ? Not so much. I will click until they are dead, and often I will just run up to them so I can headshot them and be done with that bad excuse of a shooter.
    The max payne mode is also very bad, especially because it reminds me of the turn based Fallouts. You just select some body part to blow up, hope it works and you can finally do something that doesn't involve fighting.

    It's like saying the combats in Arcanum were great played real time ; all you did was spam that one attack as fast as you could so they'd all die. I never really liked Baldurs Gate-style combats either, but at least they were somewhat strategic and nice to watch.

    Finally, you can't speak of "satisfaction" or even of "combat system" without speaking of AI. Right ? RIGHT ? Morrowind 3's AI is really bad too. They rush up to you. They fire on you with their minigun, while you hide behind a pillar, killing them while they reload or wander away like brain deprived chickens ; they will never learn, never try anything.
    A few years ago, Half life mobs used grenades to lure you out ; in Oblivion 3, I've seen a mutant use a grenade, but I was just in front of him, a bit uphill, and he just blew himself up, like his brothers did when they tried to use that missile launcher. So much for super fighting mutants. Crysis was short, but the combats were quite fun, so I thought ; they tried to surround you, gathered, prepared ambushes. Fallout 3 ? There are "mob camps" that you roflstomp over.

    I don't even understand how you can think the combats are good. Of course I had a laugh when I blew my first heads and legs off. I love Happy Tree Friends too ; but you'll notice, they don't just blow heads off. They do it with style.
     
  19. tekhedd

    tekhedd Hoarding ammo IS gameplay

    206
    Oct 28, 2008
    "Well, a doctor cures people. A medic just helps people feel more comfortable... while they die."
    --Doc (Red vs. Blue)

    I personally think that it makes perfect sense to have them as separate skills... from a realism perspective. From a gameplay perspective, I never could see the point of spending precious skill points on something that I'll only need if I'm a poor shot, so combining them into one is like you get double-value from your points. That seems like an advantage to me, even if it's at the expense of realism.
     
  20. madmaligor

    madmaligor First time out of the vault

    22
    Oct 24, 2008
    Ok I just stumbled onto a mutant to mutant conversation tonight while sneaking up on a pair of guards. Holy Hilarity Batman! I almost shot beer through my nose.

    All of a sudden I found myself stopping to listen to a bunch of side conversations I never knew existed. NPC's that are near each other or walk up to one another have some truly interesting, some informative, some very funny, and some very, how shall I put it, mind numbingly dull, conversations.

    It runs the gambit but it can really help with the immersion. It just goes to show you, when you don't stop to smell the roses, you can miss that they were even there.

    *edit* I just wanted to add btw, that not all NPC's interact. But from what small amount of samples I was able to gather, there are quite a few. A really good one was sneaking up on a pair of raiders, when the "caution" lit up red while sneaking one peeled off and said "I know your out there!" and I moved away a bit then stood still. He eventually went back to his post and I heard him say "I thought I heard something." then the other guy said "Probably just a rat. I hate rats."

    :)