Why are modern isometric RPGs shit?

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by maximaz, Nov 3, 2021.

  1. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Isn't 'holding your hand' in context of video games was more of the developers doing something under the hood to ensure the player's utmost comfortable experience, i.e having the AIs intentionally mess up albeit in not-so-obvious ways to let players some easy wins, or something along those lines? I'm pretty sure giving tips and tricks (or in other words, some form of tutorials) are the norm/standard, no matter what genre and how hardcore a game claimed to be. Whether the players actually listen or not, well that's their problem...
     
  2. ropetight

    ropetight First time out of the vault

    23
    Feb 7, 2020
    I know that Underrail is newer than WL2, but it always felt like uno di noi, similar to Age of Decadence.
    But that is based on subjective feeling - if the only quantifiable criteriav for groupinggamesinto modern cPRG category is date of release, you are absolutely right.
    Underrail is modern cRPG, and exception to the title of thread.
     
  3. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Alright, then, what would be your personal criteria of what makes a 'modern' cRPG, other than date of release? Was it some specific design choices and decisions?
    I have a feeling that pursuing down this train of discussion might end up with, "old is better, new is shit", which was what this thread's OP about at first, seemingly due to haven't played more than 5(?) cRPGs released in the last 7 years or so. But I doubt anyone would want to be THAT unreasonable...
     
  4. ropetight

    ropetight First time out of the vault

    23
    Feb 7, 2020
    Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar (not an isometric cPRG but blobber, so not mentioned before ) was released in 2017., later than Underrail.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimoire:_Heralds_of_the_Winged_Exemplar



    Would you say that Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar is modern cPRG?
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2021
  5. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Yes? Because other than the obvious date of release, I'm pretty sure Cleve adds and improves upon the designs of the older games it was obviously inspired from. Because otherwise, what's the point of making a *new* game, but with the exact same gameplay mechanics as the older ones but different coat of paints? But to make myself clear, I haven't yet gotten the time and proper machine to play it, even though I bought it a few years ago. However, based on the general reception, especially on the Codex, I never get the implication that Grimoire is merely one of those classic blobber but with different/modern coat of paint.

    Let's go back to the isometric context; ATOM RPG is a definitive 1:1 inspired by the classic Fallout down to the T, much to the chagrin of some people, in fact. And yet, is ATOM RPG not a "modern isometric RPG" according to you? Even you admitted it as much, that ATOM is one of the 'newer ones', unless you didn't meant to imply it that way, in which case we go back to square one, I guess...
     
  6. ropetight

    ropetight First time out of the vault

    23
    Feb 7, 2020
    Don't know about Clive's design intentions, and it is really hard to say that Grimoire has new coat of paint over Wizardry 8 or anything in last 20 years. I guess Clive just made Grimoire the way he wanted, but by release date - it is recent, modern cPRG. Gameplaywise - it is oldschool as you can get.

    Back to ISOs - ATOM is closest thing to Fallout1/2 and you are right - it is in similar catogory as Underrail.
    Both are newer games that play like much older games.
    Underrail states on its Steam page that it is old school - so intention of developer was for game to look and play like older games.
    To add to this old-school felling, Underrail has proprietary pseudo-3D engine.

    Back to the criteria as such - I already said that classifying Underrail as oldscholl was based on my feel, which was subjective.
    On the other hand, if we take recent release date as criteria, Avernum 3 was re-released in 2018 with new coat-of-paint.


    People are coining terms like "modern old school" trying to describe various games, to make things even more complicated.
    https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/ITAXa/best-modern-old-school-rpg
     
  7. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Gonk 0 Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Oh so this is now a discussion about semantics and autism in gaming.
     
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  8. Alphons

    Alphons National Beholder

    Aug 9, 2017
    That's every thread here.

    IMG_20211129_223333.jpg
     
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  9. TJQKA

    TJQKA Boomer Anarchist

    Sep 21, 2021
  10. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Alright, that's fair. But still...despite the developer's claim in the description of their games, the fact that several gameplay features that existed in their games means they're, by all means, a modern iteration of those so-called old school designs. I'm not sure if that's the exact same as saying a game is "modern old school", but let's save that discussion for another day.

    Instead, let's go back to the main topic of this thread; "Why are modern isometric RPGs shit"? Well, because OP hasn't played enough of them, I guess?
     
  11. Eshanas

    Eshanas Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    819
    Jul 6, 2016
    Hot take: Isometric was a limitation of the time and wasn't cutting edge and intentionally going for that style isn't going to make a game automatically good.

    And I like some isometric stuff. Xcom. OG xcom mostly. Uhhh...some toher games I can't remember right now. Icewind dale, fallout 1, 2, tactics, Underrail were fun. But if they had 3d engines back then capable of doing what they wanted to do, they probably would had done it in 3d.

    The modern retro wave thinks the limitation of the past are something to be idolized than something the devs back then fought with and dealt with. The old crpgs weren't bad perse, but their limitations kept them back. And being blinded to that leads to stuff like Staglands and Age of Decadence and even Pillars, stuff that isn't as fun as it could be.
     
  12. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    More like a garbage take, especially the part where you said that they probably would had done it in 3D, and that these 'limitations' held them back. Reeks very much like the arguments saying how they were turn-based because of (((((((limitations)))))))

    On a more serious note, it isn't about making something (((((automatically good))))) when it's about going for a certain design decision. Being isometric is a clear and conscious design decision, not a limitations at all, unless you could actually asks them if they'd done it differently. Maybe the devs from the 80s-90s era, who are pretty much geezers now, would tell you so, but I doubt you'll get that kind of answer from Stygsoft (Underrail) or Iron Tower Studios (Age of Decadence, Dungeon Rats, and the still in-development Colony Ship RPG).

    You just said how being isometric is a limitation, and that if they could do it in 3D, they would've done so. Well, what do you know, Age of Decadence IS 3D, albeit with a (rotating) isometric camera.

    But yeah, going 3D is a mistake, I'd say. Had they done away with it, and also go with fixed camera, they wouldn't have to spend as much time, effort, and resources designing a 3D worldspace to accommodate for the rotating camera. Hell, they could probably have the time and energy to design noncombat gameplay mechanics, like an actual stealth system, instead of having it done through a text adventure a la CYOA.

    Luckily, they're finally able to do that with Colony Ship RPG.
     
  13. SquidWard

    SquidWard Pirate and Bankrobber oTO Orderite

    Jun 1, 2018
    I'm sure some isometric and isometric adjacent games would have used a different perspective given the opportunity. I'm also sure there's isometric and isometric adjacent games that would not have.

    Wolfenstein 3D came out in 1992. Doom came out in 1993. Quake came out in 1996. Why was Baldur's Gate in 1998 isometric? Why was Fallout 1 in 1997 isometric (not actual iso but you know my point)? Why? Wasn't Wizardry and Ultima in the first person perspective? And those predate Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, and Quake. Because sure, it may have been a limitation of if you're going to have this type of content and this much of it you gotta pick your battles. But there lies an important factor. Why did they choose this over that? Because certain elements were more important than the perspective? And that the perspective they chose resemble a tabletop emulation more so while still providing graphical feedback and satisfaction? Maybe?
     
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  14. Norzan

    Norzan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 7, 2017
    No offense, but this is about as bad as the people claiming that fixed camera angles and tank controls were "a limitation of the time". No, they were deliberately used because the devs were going for a specific experience, not that they were being held back by technology.
    True, but that applies to literally everything else. Going 3D or any other style outside of isometric doesn't make a game good by default either, just look at the Bethesda Fallouts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
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  15. SquidWard

    SquidWard Pirate and Bankrobber oTO Orderite

    Jun 1, 2018
    Pfft, even if it did it doesn't mean I want that type of gameplay for that game. I don't care if it plays just as well as some FPS game, I didn't want to play a FPS when I launched Fallout. I'd play FEAR or Quake, not Fallout 4.
     
  16. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Nov 26, 2007
    FPP realtime games came out first—was that a limitation of the time? Non-trivial isometric was made possible when computers got better.

    *Hot take: It's about the gameplay; and isometric allows it.

    In Fallout's case, it was about simulating GURPS.



     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
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  17. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Gonk 0 Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
     
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  18. Risewild

    Risewild Carbon Dated and Proud
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    We all know that modern remake of Wasteland that came out a few years ago is made like that because of limitations of today's hardware!
     
  19. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Gonk 0 Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    That remake was slammed by a lot of butthurt assholes concerned with pronoun usage. Funny I never even noticed it.
     
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  20. Risewild

    Risewild Carbon Dated and Proud
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    My opinion about this is that, as long as the game is fun, they can use or not use whatever pronouns they want.

    I haven't tried this remake, because I am always broke and I haven't had much time for playing games lately, but it looks like a nice remake... And that is coming from me, that usually hate remakes.
     
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