Why did the devs of FNV make the choice for which faction to pick so cut-and-dry?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by ElloinmorninJ, Apr 12, 2021.

  1. ElloinmorninJ

    ElloinmorninJ Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    439
    Jun 25, 2019
    The NCR is obviously the best choice. They’re a liberal democracy, meanwhile you have:

    - Totalitarian Rome LARPing savages.

    -Authoritarian capitalist autocrat

    - Anarchism (ie Death)

    The NCR is pound for pound the best option
     
  2. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Nov 26, 2007
    I've no idea. :(

    *Gut guess... They were on the Bethesda leash, and that might have had something to do with it.
     
  3. Eshanas

    Eshanas Vault Dweller

    775
    Jul 6, 2016
    The NCR is not the best choice. They're an overstretched, corrupt Republic that is sliding into oligarchy, and nothing you, the player, can do will change that. At best you've given them a huge tax pot to scoop every bottlecap out of and a big lake to drain for more irrigation. Victory at the dam won't make the NCR suddenly see the light, they'll get more cocky, more gung-ho, more taxing, more expansive.

    House however offers 1) the survival of the NCR, if beaten/pushed back, 2) technological progress, 3) a free city, 4) autonomy for local settlements, 5) crippling of the legion, and 6) robotic escorts.

    The Legion doesn't offer much, true; and Anarchism does not automatically equal death nice bias you got there - if you work for it, you can leave the Mojave stronger than its ever been, a valley of free settlements and a Vegas at your control to direct as a free city.
     
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  4. Risewild

    Risewild Carbon Dated and Proud
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    I would say that Mr House is probably the best for the future of mankind.

    He actually has the knowledge, resources and vision to actually reach the stars. If mankind in the Fallout universe manages to reach space, it then gets unlimited possibilities.

    Earth is running low on many resources, the only way of getting more of them is to search outside of the planet, space travel/exploration is the only way of this happening. NCR will not achieve this since they're expanding and keep consuming whatever resources they find without much care. They seek to grow at any cost, this will deplete what little resources still exist quickly.

    House on the other hand has a plan, he knows how and where these little resources should be used to reach space. This will provide a virtually unlimited amount of any resources needed to make humanity reach new heights. Eventually surpassing the old world in terms of science and tech.

    The NCR way will pretty much hit a roadblock in terms of advancing science and tech. They don't plan for the future, they will consume the resources with no way of getting new ones and humanity will one day be set back for it. It will never reach as high as with Mr House's vision.

    I don't even like Mr House, but his way seems much more beneficial for the future of mankind than the other factions.
     
  5. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Mojave Express Employee of the Month

    Mar 16, 2013
    NCR isn't even the best choice for NCR. The game quite heavily signals that the NCR is at a political crossroads. It's had its first regressive, imperialistic neo-con administration and the Second Battle of Hoover Dam is the do-or-die moment for it. Victory means rewarding and securing the future for this path of NCR - loss means NCR massively turns away from it, and the loss of life and territory is entirely blamed on the administration.

    We are also signaled in equal measure that the NCR continuing to mindlessly expand via bayonet in the way it has been is going to lead to its destruction. Similarly, its current practices mean it's not going to remain a liberal democracy for very long.

    The best outcome for NCR is one where they still get the water and electricity from Hoover Dam, but without sovereignty over the territory and with their imperialist experiment thoroughly squashed. This can be achieved through House or Independent Vegas.

    Personally I think whilst Independent Vegas (anarchy) is a gamble, it's morally the best ending. The Vegas tribes have the right to self-determination and they're in a resource breadbasket by Wasteland standards. They should be allowed to grow into their own, and maybe they'll come into something even better than NCR - like the Divide was going to be.

    I would agree that pound for pound NCR has the nicest ending slides but it comes with the sword of Damocles that the NCR is going to be set into a rot that will kill it and bring all this progress to a crumbling end.
     
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  6. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Fossil

    Apr 7, 2017
    Says you. I'm not gonna support corrupt politicians that are causing the same exact mistakes the old world did, a lot of the mistakes that caused the apocalypse.

    The problem here, and something that people do a lot with the Legion, is that people look at the wasteland through the eyes of our society and its standards. The entire point of the factions choices is to pick which one you believe is the best for the wasteland and the wasteland has an entirely different context than our society.

    It's why the Legion can be even argued as viable option because the wasteland is lawless. There's no one putting a leash on its residents, and Legion is doing it by brute force because it's been proven in the past that being lax caused a lot of the problems in the old world. Sure, they enslave and crucify to ensure people comply, but they are not supposed to be perfect. They are supposed to do things that make some people not want to pick them.

    All four options are flawed, and that's the whole point.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  7. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Mojave Express Employee of the Month

    Mar 16, 2013
    Worth noting that Sawyer didn't really consider the Legion to be a flawed grey option alongside the other three. The Legion was always meant to be obviously repugnant. The NCR, House and Anarchy are all pretty equally flawed but the Legion are a league of their own, intentionally so.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  8. Morgan_

    Morgan_ The Fool

    Jul 3, 2020
    Yeah, just because something is efficient, or has a few redeeming features doesn't make it a grey area. Even though I'm not very Libertarian irl I still think House is a viable option and is also the most fun pop-scifi choice if you consider the rest of Fallout and want a fun story.
    I kinda feel like House controlling Vegas could actually save the NCR from an early expansionist grave. Maybe there is back story that confirms otherwise though.
     
  9. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Mojave Express Employee of the Month

    Mar 16, 2013
    That's exactly the case, but the same thing can occur with Independent Vegas too. Primary difference is that House absolutely chokes NCR for every penny of the water and power, whereas Sawyer implies that in an Indie Vegas ending, because there's no central regulatory body the NCR has the advantage in economic negotiations with Vegas.
     
  10. Morgan_

    Morgan_ The Fool

    Jul 3, 2020
    I don't know if it would be the case or not, but it would seem that an indie Vegas would have a lot of internal issues and be easy prey for NCR + Legion. As bad as it may seem based on some of his actions/views I think I'd be willing to override local autonomy of Vegas in favor of House.
    It's a gamble, but it is Vegas after all. :drunk:
     
  11. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Fossil

    Apr 7, 2017
    I called it only flawed, not grey. Because, yes, Legion is without a doubt the most evil faction of the main four and borderlines black morality. But the thing is that they aren't mindless monsters hellbent on total destruction (some of its soldiers are, but the higher ups aren't) like being evil usually implies. They are doing bad things because they think those bad things are necessary to put the savages of the wasteland in their place and make them less prone to corruption and avarice like the NCR people, and then further down the line stop doing those bad things once their goal is achieved (i recall Caesar saying something along those lines).

    Really, the major problem with the Legion is how underdeveloped it is in terms of content in the game.
     
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  12. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Mojave Express Employee of the Month

    Mar 16, 2013
    With an upgraded Securitron army, the NCR and Legion will never return millitarily. Legion gets its back not only broken, but grounded into dust. They'll bounce off and start to crumble. Even if they don't, they're going to be in absolutely terrible shape and a shadow of themselves. Similarly, the Securitron Army is absolutely formidable. In-Lore a single unit carries more firepower than an NCR platoon and never has to sleep, eat, drink or worry about morale. As for NCR, their political situation completely turns on their imperialist ambitions so any return via army would be an unlikely uphill battle as is - made even worse by the stonewall of the Securitrons. What would be the point? The value of sovereignty over the Dam is not worth the cost of another war both politically and literally - the average NCR citizen is still getting water, power and a tourist locale from Vegas with it being independent. If the NCR weren't a democracy, they might come back. But as is? No.

    You're right about internal issues. Without any central government it's not going to be easy - but it's possible they'll work something out amongst themselves. Indie Vegas is definitely a gamble, we know it's going to be unstable short term but what about long term? I'd rather the instability and chafing of independence than the predatory and ever-expanding, uncomprimising control of House. Although, the security for stability is an understandable trade-off.
     
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  13. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Nov 26, 2007
    harry-2.gif mastersmiley-1.gif harry-2.gif
     
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  14. Morgan_

    Morgan_ The Fool

    Jul 3, 2020
    I don't want to place burdens on anyone, but maybe Gizmo can get these added to emotes? Seems to be tech savvy. Perhaps admin privileges are in order?
     
  15. Eshanas

    Eshanas Vault Dweller

    775
    Jul 6, 2016
    I think House would eventually get cocky enough to consolidate Vegas and the surrounding area into Vegas proper. He's not that hands off: if you make Primm a NCR town, but then do the house ending, he sends his securitrons to 'protect' Primm and get its taxes instead; the securitrons do wipe out all the fiends, keeps a sentry at Goodsprings, basically takes over freeside. He'll probably set up a rough city government, but a weird one.
     
  16. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Mojave Express Employee of the Month

    Mar 16, 2013
    I agree. I can see it now "The length between Mojave Outpost and Vegas is completely unmonitored and unregulated - this poses an active harm and risk to the flow of traffic coming to Vegas. In order to ensure the economic security of New Vegas, I must have firm control over the Mojave's highways. It's a simple manner of protecting my business model - the rest of the Mojave benefits as a result of Vegas tourism as is. Consider this a fair exchange in return."

    Ulysses is absolutely right that House's need for control will creep creep creep all the way across the breadth of the Mojave.
     
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  17. megamike15

    megamike15 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    120
    Mar 30, 2016
    i think the main issue is what can be considered the ending where pretty much everyone gets what they want [ expect arcade he is screwed in almost every ending.] is if you side with the ncr.
     
  18. killafornia

    killafornia First time out of the vault

    12
    Feb 16, 2021
    Calling Legion larpers isn't wise. Everyone is a larper in Fallout, except Raiders. Raiders are the true creations of the Post-Apocalyptic World. They don't need to wear uniforms or pre-war suits in order to look good, they wear whatever they find and use them as body armors.

    NCR isn't even a decent option, leave aside it being the best. The corruption in the NCR is a whole different being, their troopers are the embodiment of weakness and incompetency, where did you get this idea of them being the best? NCR and Legion have only one difference. Legion is honest about their actions, they don't lie or use the mask of democracy and the civilization in order to take something from someone. They don't need to deceive you to get something you have, they will just take it. And most importantly, they treat fair to everyone. There are no brahmin barons, senators or rich caravan company owners that own the government. You are either a slave or a peasant/caravaneer. NCR is the worst option in 4.

    Legion on the other hand, there are two different Legion factions exist in the game. One of them is Edward's Legion, the other one is Lanius' Legion. If you visit both camps and talk to the NPCs, you will see the difference. Edward's Legion is more calm and less bloodthirsty, while Lanius' Legion is worse than the Fiends. Legion is the best faction for the Post-Apocalyptic World. They are self-sufficient, capable of dealing with the Wasteland's threats and raising good, competent soldiers.

    Mr. House is the best choice for the future of mankind. He is from the Pre-War era. He knows stuff.
     
  19. Dick_Justice

    Dick_Justice Where have all the cowdogs gone?

    2
    Apr 30, 2021
    Got it to a 't'. Caesar is just the Master minus a big pot of unobtanium to serve as his deus ex machina. People destroyed the world because of irreconcilable differences? We'll just eliminate all differences then! No one will fight if everyone's the same! If you agree with his axiom--and that's a big if--Caesar just becomes a question of if the ends justify the means. In this sense the Master would have been a better choice if he could figure out reproduction because instead of eliminating individualism through totalitarianism the Master's unobtanium seemed to allow the muties to preserve their individuality.
     
  20. Morgan_

    Morgan_ The Fool

    Jul 3, 2020
    Cock_Sheriff
     
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