Why Fallout 4 craps all over Fallout 3's fans and lore

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by CT Phipps, Apr 20, 2018.

  1. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    It's annoying, really.

    You can't really complain about Fallout 4 on these forums as a Fallout 3 fan because the games are hated equally by the forum goers. So, you just have to suck it up and feel like the guy who loves The Force Awakens but HATES the Last Jedi.

    Which is also true for me.

    But Fallout 4 is weird because I actually LIKE Bethesda. At least, I like some of their games and Fallout 3 is easily my favorite of the franchise.

    Yet, Fallout 4 pisses all over its lore.

    (hears chorus of laughter)

    Laugh it up, fuzzball.

    Seriously, this game goes out of its way to make any and all good will that people from Fallout 3's gamer base feel unwelcome and snubbed by the new game.

    What do I mean?

    The Eastern Brotherhood of Steel was LIKED by a good portion of the fandom. Yes, they were the heroic idealistic branch of a group of supreme misanthropic assholes but they were beloved characters to some of us. Elder Lyons, Sarah Lyons, Paladin Cross, and the good folk at the Capital Wasteland. Many a post on the old Bethesda forums speculated on them building an Empire which would one day rival NCR. The Good Karma Lone Wanderers of the universe put a SHIT TON of effort into bringing the Capital Wasteland back from the brink.

    It was OUR wasteland, dammit, and we reclaimed it from radioactive hell to livable land.

    What does Fallout 3 do?


    List of Complaints

    * Elder Lyons is dead. Fine, he was an old man.

    * Sarah Lyons is dead, which sucks because she was the fantasy girlfriend of many a players' RP.

    * The Lone Wanderer is NOT EVEN MENTIONED. Which is ridiculous since Fallout is pretty damn good about mentioning previous protagonists. The Vault Dweller was even named a saint by the people of NCR and became a legendary tribal founder.

    Wouldn't he or she have something to say about the BOS' face heel turn?

    * The East Coast Brotherhood of Steel becomes a group of racist bad guys. Well, the racism was always there but it's terrible that all the work you put in to put them in charge of the bad guys is wasted.

    * Arthur Maxon is obsessed with stupid things. You could forgive him if he's a conqueror trying to build a new environment but he's not. He's not annexing the Commonwealth, he's just here to destroy the Institute. The Capital Wasteland isn't annexed either as there's no sign he's the government of it.

    * The Capital Wasteland is still a crappy place as there's Super Mutant growing pools, ghouls, and worse there with everyone complaining about what a chaotic hellhole it is. HOW? How the hell have they not gotten this under control?

    * The nuclear generator of Rivet City is taken and that pretty much destroys that settlement.

    * No mention of the Pitt.

    It's enormously disrespectful to the previous game to throw in nothing but shade on the game people played and liekd enough to get THIS game made.
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  2. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    Mar 28, 2018
    I doubt many on these forums mind anyone throwing shade at Fallout 3, even if it is the people that made it. I hold no illusions about the relative quality of these titles against the better ones, but I do think this is a good idea for discussion.

    To answer your points:

    Brotherhood perhaps the tipping point was the re-integration of the Brotherhood Outcasts, and the price paid for that. Given that they wanted the Brotherhood to retain it's West Coast goals and hated the Lyons doctrine, they would have approved more of the doctrine that Arthur Maxon chose to follow (hell, probably influenced his mindset in the first place- with both Lyons and Sarah dead, it isn't hard to see a man like Casdin influence him)

    Sarah Lyons falling:maybe it would have been better to have her turn 'bad' and be the leader and you can turn her good again- like Bastilla from KOTOR. Or lead a divergence of opinion to Maxon in 4- she still wants to help Wastelanders and you can help her do so-or even work in a plotline about assisting her to become elder (like Hardin vs. Nacamara in NV) In this way, she could survive, keep the direction Bethesda wanted to take the Brotherhood and have you continuing the legacy of what you liked in Fallout 3. Though that is borrowing a lot from other games.

    As for the LW-this can be explained by a popular criticism of FO3 (not that we need to delve into those) that you are largely assisting the brotherhood in their goals (especially with good karma). At the end of the day, canon is that the purifier is activated and fresh water flows, but if the LW had not done it, Lyons would have. The Brotherhood had the huge robot and the army, and in the final battle the Enclave are wiped out at both the Jeffersonian memorial and Adams Air force base, arguably without particularly needing the PC's help in the climactic battles. It isn't like the Vault Dweller had an army to assist him. (I realise there are some flaws to this argument-I agree it was a shame not to mention him at all.)

    If he would have something to say about it- I guess it allows you to figure out for yourself if the LW is still helping the wasteland or destroying it as a result of your playthrough. Or you could say that perhaps he was slightly tired of it all after going from escaping the vault to destroying the Enclave at Adams including being in a coma. He could have just retired and been the sheriff of Megaton or whatever-a quieter life.

    As for the BOS's goals- they do kinda function as a dual purpose in FO3 and FO4. In the former it is Super Mutants and Enclave, in the second it is Institute and SM's, ghouls etc. In both cases, there is incentive to go after both things-they all threaten the common folk. To be honest it can be argued there is little difference really- apart from a new focus on Ferals and some slightly more racist language, the BOS functions largely the same with the institute replacing the Enclave as the new threat to the world (which allows for a more 'tech' focused approach). Only this time the choice is not as black and white as in FO3.

    Capital Wasteland I don't see the issue with it being still a hellhole. At the end of FO3 the Enclave are taken care of, but the rest is not. There are many parties who have a stake in it still being horrific (paradise falls, talon company) and given that many will simply migrate to Megaton, Rivet City, Underworld (if ghoul) then there is not much of an incentive to do so? Maybe that's the LW's job if you want.

    Rivet City:again, outcast influence on the new Maxon. OR you could headcanon that the Brotherhood wiped out any opposing forces near Rivet City with veritbirds etc. and allowing the residents to settle there? (just a thought.)

    The Pitt: there isn't much of Point Lookout either. Both are self-contained places with little connection to the outside world. Not like Little lamplight where Big Town is effectively introducing the residents to the horrors of the real world.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  3. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    It would be one thing if what followed in Fo4 was the logical conclusion of things. I was really hoping at one point that one of the BoS jerks would say something like 'we didn't defeat the Enclave...we became them.' Bethesda had options, but they gave us an 'and then' plot. It's fine for things to just happen sometimes, or to be unexpected, even an actual deus ex machina can be executed beautifully, but the only other thing they did was ignore their own content....not even a passing mention of the Republic of Rosie as a gag. Seriously though, they just wiped the slate and gave us even less to fill the gap. It makes no sense as a design approach, at all, but building on the existing lore was never their strong suit to put it mildly. Which is weird to say, because that's what people think their games are all about...TES lore is so boring, even for fantasy bullshit. Why do people even like those games?

    Anyway, I definitely wanted more of the Pitt. It would have been worth going to Pennsylvania. Overall I just wanted more you know? The next chapter, not, okay so here's a reboot/spinoff that pretends to be a sequel.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  4. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    Mar 28, 2018
    Have to admit, I struggle to see what was so fascinating about the Pitt, and why it needed more. If anyone could enlighten me, I would be grateful.

    Can't help anyone on why people like TES games, (despite reading threads on here as to why some enjoy Skyrim) seem boring as hell to me.

    Maybe it would be a good idea to wonder what the next chapter would be to an FO3 sequel set in the Capital Wasteland? (you could even take the best bits of FO3 and put it in a slightly more believable world and add more rpg elements to suit all tastes of Fallout.)

    Maybe they just thought putting Macready, Maxon, the sort-of BOS, the institute mentioned in Fallout 3 along with Liberty Prime, the railroad, and Sierra Petrovita would be enough? If you think about it that way, you could argue they did put in enough fan service, just they misjudged what the most-loved bits of Fallout 3 were.
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  5. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Eh, I know almost no one will care about the corruption of Fallout 3 lore but I shall speak about it anyway!

    I'm actually very interested in the fact that Arthur Maxon was apparently taking orders from the Lost Hills Elders. At some point, they re-established radio contact and this confirms that the BoS wasn't completely wiped out in the Brotherhood-NCR war aside from the Mojave Branch--which was a very real possibility. It's also not complete crap that they might change their stance on recruiting given 90% of the brotherhood has been wiped out.

    I was fully expecting there to be a quest related to the subject of her death. It's awfully convenient for her to die right before Arthur's ascension and you could maybe find her body in the Commonwealth as well as proof she was murdered by Brotherhood Outcasts in order to put up their puppet ruler. That's the sort of thing which would have made a very interesting plot I think/

    Did you ever get to read my article, "The Moral Ambiguity of Fallout"?


    It basically was an analysis of Fallout 3's plots and themes. One of them being that Elder Lyons was so focused on doing good that he managed to more or less destroy his entire chapter through windmill tilting. By the time the Lone Wanderer has arrived, they've been more or less spent militarily and are on the verge of being completely annihilated. The Lone Wanderer single-handedly turns the tables by revealing the Super Mutants' home base, defeating the Enclave by destroying both Raven's Rock as well as Adam's Air Force base, and nuking their nuclear system.

    One thing that's infuriating is they're no longer people who collect technology but are now anti-tech. Elder Lyons took over the Enclave's former bases and military supplies while Arthur Maxson destroys the Institute--one of the greatest repositories of technology in the entire Wasteland.

    You have the option of wiping out Paradise Falls and Talon Company both with the BOS doing the latter as a quest.

    Eh, the Pitt is a potential massive rebirth of industry in Northeast America as it has a functional industrial base. You know, just the whole massive amount of radiation is the problem.
  6. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Well, at the end of the event either Ashur is building a new infrastructure that could be the basis for a new state or he's been replaced with potentially the Lone Wanderer themselves. You have the option of telling Werner that you're in charge at the end of the event and he's surprisingly okay with it (he resents being a slave, not Number 2#).

    I love big open worlds and visiting new lands as well as peoples.

    Sadly, I don't think that'll happen even as a DLC.

    I liked all those nods actually but the problem is if you're going to incorporate those elements then maybe you should consider following up on them.

    As Val Kilmer Batman says:

  7. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    Mar 28, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  8. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    Mar 28, 2018
    Apologies if I can't seem to make my replies not have to be dropped down. Have highlighted text to make it easier what are my words and what are not. Will solve in future.
  9. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    TBH, I don't think shitting on a garbage dump is too much of a transgression.
    • [Like] [Like] x 5
  10. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Fossil

    Apr 7, 2017
    Fallout 3 already did its great share of shitting on lore established in the first two games. I guess this is just Bethesda being consistent with their sequels shitting on the previous games's lore.
    • [Like] [Like] x 5
  11. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016

  12. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    No even though I've since changed my mind on fo3 and have come as far as to even despise it anyone could see how disrespectful 4 is even to 3. First of it betrays maxsons character as we see him in 3 he goes from a kindhearted kid to evil racist because... reasons? Not to mention they killed Sarah Lyons off with a fucking terminal entry. No real mention of any of the events of fo3 except to say they didn't matter because the capital wasteland is domed to be a hellhole forever ala Africa. Also hell the settlement system makes the whole plot of Fallout 3 irrelevant as you can now build purifiers out of your ass.
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  13. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Mind you, that's just good science.

    *I* can build a decent water purifier with a plastic bag and ten pounds of sand.

    I mean one that clears away radioactive contaminants too.

    I say that as a huge fan of Fallout 3.
  14. Boggins

    Boggins First time out of the vault

    Mar 1, 2018
    Are you admitting that this aspect (AKA the fact that not a single NPC in Fallout 3 thought about using rainwater instead of groundwater) of Fallout 3 is stupid?
  15. Risewild

    Risewild Carbon Dated and Proud
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Not to mention that Mr Handys have built-in condensation collectors. And can get almost one bottle of water per day with tiny collectors.
    Imagine if people made large condensation collectors in their settlements? :drunk:
  16. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Yes and no because the no is that it's a great idea to get rid of groundwater contamination and pollution if you can. The problem is that it's a bit more complicated than purifying water period (particularly when groundwater is a problem in the soil not the water).

    But I also don't hold Fallout to particularly high science standards given the giant scorpions.

    Given the G.E.C.K. has been the focus of previous games, I just tend to view James work as making a giant one to fix the hellish environment of Washington D.C.
  17. Boggins

    Boggins First time out of the vault

    Mar 1, 2018
    I hate it when people use this as an argument.

    "This universe has [x] (radscorpions, in this case), therefore it doesn't have to explain [y] (water pollution)."

    Whatever, I'll go with it.

    Radscorpions have an, albeit simple, explanation: They're scorpions that were mutated by radiation. Once again, really simple, but there's a solid reason for their existence. The water problem in 3 is different. It does indeed have an explanation as well, which is that the water is irradiated/polluted. The thing is, though, the explanation is shaky. It's a problem that could easily be fixed. There are other sources of water out there. e.g rainwater, the condensation in the air that the Mr. Handy's collect over time (thanks for reminding me, Risewild), etc. Therefore, the whole explanation for 3's conflict is pointless.

    Radscorpions have a reason for their existence that can't be contradicted. On the other hand, the water problem is irrelevant since it can be easily fixed.
    • [Like] [Like] x 6
  18. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I'm just saying, if you're doing that, then you can just say, "The bombs which hit Washington D.C. were designed to be particularly dirty and leave the land polluted and dead for centuries."

    The Rule of Cool forgives a lot and it's inherently a lot more cooler to have a polluted dead wastland to play in versus a big beautiful lush forest, even if that is kind of Chernobyl's reality versus the alternative.

    Eh, there's a if and an and in this.

    Those above mentioned methods explain why there's ANYONE living in the region as humans need water and they need a lot of water every day. So, obviously, somehow the people of every settlement and the Raiders are getting enough water to live.

    James' water purifier is making rivers worth of water that is cleaning up the environment and removing the need to purify the water on an individual level.
  19. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Fossil

    Apr 7, 2017
    I hate it too. It's the same excuse Peter Hines used to make "Kid in the Fridge" quest that destroys one of the major events in the first Fallout game. And his excuse after being called out on it was that Fallout is a francise "with green talking mutants", so it doesn't need an explanation.

    CTPhipps, you seem to be just quoting stuff from the TVTropes when you try to dismiss some stuff that makes no sense or has no explanation (which seems to be what you are doing with the "Rule of Cool" and you also did it in the other thread). That site means absolutely nothing to anything. What i mean is that those "rules" in that site are absolutely worthless and they are not laws that should be followed by anyone. So quoting them from the TVtropes site doesn't help any of your arguments on any level.

    It makes it really hard to take any argument you say seriously when you start using anything from that site.
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  20. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I have similar feelings regarding people who attack the medium than the message. You didn't have an actual response to the concept of, "the purpose of the event is fun and entertainment versus being strictly factual." Instead, you just take a pot shot at a site which I find to be an excellent source of literary analysis shorthand and media criticism. You're certainly entitled to hate it but it doesn't make me any inclined to take your response seriously any more than you do. Which is to say TV tropes is awesome and you're just wrong as well as looking poorly on the subject by saying so. :D

    Then again, I strongly disagree with the fact that Fallout should be a series more concerned with things like continuity over fun. Fallout 3 is easily the best of the games because it feels apocalyptic and desolate. It's a game which has strength of feeling because it's a game that deals with the tragedy of the war and the sense of immense loss which resulted from the nuclear. Fallout 1 and 2 preferred to dwell on the new societies being built, which I felt wasn't as interesting as the immense tragedy of the Great War as well as what a horrible loss the billions who died were plus so much in the way of culture.

    This despite the fact that, 200 years later, it probably should have either stopped being a hellhole and everything Pre-War should have fallen apart.

    I make allowances for the benefit of both advancing the timeline as well as preserving continuity from the previous games.

    Mind you, The Boy in the Fridge was a stupid quest and badly written. It's the difference between a good retcon (Which Fallout 2 was full of like the fact the Vaults were experiments rather than genuine means of preserving human life or the Enclave's survival) versus a bad retcon (Robobrains are actually harvested from criminals rather than orangutans).