Without clues, Dishonored was too difficult

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by brfritos, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. brfritos

    brfritos Humma Kavulaaaaaaa

    638
    Sep 8, 2009
    http://www.lazygamer.net/xbox-360/without-clues-dishonored-was-too-difficult/

    I noted in general section a thread about "gun owners".

    Someone can land me one or shoot me in the head? Thanks in advance! :shock:
     
  2. FearMonkey

    FearMonkey Vault Senior Citizen

    Oct 12, 2011
    And this explains why Kinect is popular.
     
  3. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign ⛧卐⛧ Staff Member Moderator [REDACTED]

    Apr 1, 2005

    I read that yesterday. It made me want to facepalm pretty hard. I wonder why they continue to dumb games down? :|
     
  4. Kyuu

    Kyuu Insert Awesome Title Here

    Jul 19, 2007
    Seriously? If an NPC tells me I can't go upstairs, first thing I'm going to do is find a way to get upstairs!
     
  5. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign ⛧卐⛧ Staff Member Moderator [REDACTED]

    Apr 1, 2005
    No shit right!? :lol:
     
  6. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    But he said you can't! :/
     
  7. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    How is providing clues bad? As long as they aren't too obvious (a'la Skyrim/Oblivion/Fallout 3's GO HERE KILL THAT NAO), making a game more accessible is good.

    There's a difference between giving the player free reign and dumping them without any kind of clue as to what to do.
     
  8. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign ⛧卐⛧ Staff Member Moderator [REDACTED]

    Apr 1, 2005
    I agree but the way they worded it sounded pretty bad. It made the players sound pretty dumb, like they couldn't possibly think the upstairs might be accessible because a NPC said so. Either way the game is on my buy list. I just hope they don't add a quest compass.
     
  9. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    There may absolutely be a difference between free reign and total non-descript ambiguity, and you COULD say making games "more accessible is good". But I think it's the sentiment lacking particular restraint that makes it bad. Dangerous, even.

    Okay, that sounds like gibberish, so lemme make sense of it... When gamers read, for example, "FROMSOFTWARE to make next title in the Souls series more accessible to a wider audience", they automatically think "The game is going to be easier than the last one." This is true. The statement itself doesn't MEAN that, but that's what the authors of the press releases, and indeed the developers themselves mean when they say it. "Catering" to a wider audience means pleasing as many people as possible, and that means kissing some ass, and discouraging anyone as little as possible.

    How is this a bad thing? Well, from certain perspectives, it isn't. However, these perspectives are part of the mindset that doesn't view challenges as a good thing that leads to improvement, and can't conceive of the notion of "accomplishment" from conquering adversity. Just giving someone a freebie hand-out may not be bad, but it certainly paves the way for them to expect further, with equally as little action on their end to "earn" more. This is the problem with the idea, born from marketing and monetary aims as opposed to artistic or educational drives, that suggests "making things more accessible" be the goal in and of itself. They essentially create their own downward spiral into monotonous content and pandering to a userbase, thus encouraging them to think as little as possible, and so we end up with this: people who can't figure out to go upstairs when an NPC tells them not to.

    There has to be limitations set when you want to take a product or service and wish to reach a wider audience, if it's to retain any of its own integrity. You can make it "more accessible", but certain boundaries HAVE to be set, and kept. Maybe a tutorial will be helpful to more players, but the guidance shouldn't carry over for the rest of the game. If the game were to include clues "for a while" until the devs deemed players SHOULD adjust to the game, then set them free and leave them to finish the rest on their own, that's not so bad.
     
  10. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt I should set a custom tit

    Oct 28, 2008
    ^ That's a problem with communications more than with the concept. Frankly, the Souls games could benefit significantly from a traditional map or minimap, from a functional journal/quest log, not to mention difficulty through good AI rather than "i have tons of HP while you die in 2 hits" monsters. Note how that'd actually improve the game without spoiling that "accomplishment" feeling.
     
  11. brfritos

    brfritos Humma Kavulaaaaaaa

    638
    Sep 8, 2009
    Remember the beginning of F2, Tagaziel?

    You enter The Den and at night in one of the buildings you encounter a ghost complaining
    Then you learn just talking to other people the story of this ghost.
    Then you see a shovel in the house and a cemetary nearby.

    What more clues do you need?

    You are a stealth assassin in a house with some guard don't wanting you to go upstairs.
    Let me phrase that again, a stealth assassin with some invisibilty skills.
    What more clues do you need to go upstairs? :lol:

    Also, how people can be so conformist and apatic?
    It's a game, fuck the guard, I want to go upstairs! 8-)
     
  12. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Have you actually read the article?
     
  13. brfritos

    brfritos Humma Kavulaaaaaaa

    638
    Sep 8, 2009
    Yes, I read the entire interview.

    Why?
     
  14. Surf Solar

    Surf Solar So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2009
    Yeah. As long as these clues are optionally available and the game is not designed around the fact that I MUST look for the clues, I see no problem whatsoever.

    People who complain about this would only lie, I bet everyone around here has looked for a clue in a walkthrough in a game where s/he was stuck at some point. What's the problem?
     
  15. brfritos

    brfritos Humma Kavulaaaaaaa

    638
    Sep 8, 2009
    No problem at all helping the players if they are unable to trespass an obstacle.

    But make the thing optional, not compulsory!
    Like a "help key" for example.
     
  16. sea

    sea Vault Senior Citizen

    Oct 5, 2009
    There's a difference between "players genuinely can't figure out how to proceed in the game because the level design/objectives/etc. are confusing" and "players can't progress because they are unambitious/lazy/cannot figure out simple shit." I suspect that in this case, they are talking about the latter.

    It's not surprising. I have seen many, many players who get stuck on very obvious things all the time (I know some) and who are so used to being dragged around by the nose that they literally cannot cope with a game that does not do exactly that. This applies especially to younger gamers who may have never played a game which requires actual thought, exploration, etc. to complete.
     
  17. Ohaimerk

    Ohaimerk Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Orderite

    Mar 30, 2009
    wtf is this for a shit? This has to be for the casual gamers who only play for a few hours per week, I'm an incredibly stupid individual but I managed to figure out some of the hardest games of the late 90s before I even hit puberty.
     
  18. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    So long as it can be turned off or is more subtle than a MMO style GO THERE NOW mechanism (mayhaps a Dead Space-like breadcrumbs button?)

    Then again, New Vegas had an objective marker, and it didn't suffer that much from it. Human Revolution also had one, but you could turn it off.

    I mean, let's be honest here, these are AAA titles. They are not exclusively played by people who pay attention while they play a game. Some people, yes, just want to follow the objective to the actual meat of the game. They're not forcibly sub-human simpletons, they just want their game to be leisury.

    I mean, if this showed up in Wateland 2 I would raise an eyebrow for sure no matter what, but in titles intended to be played by a vast audience like Dishonored I don't have a problem with it, so long as it can be turned off.
     
  19. aenemic

    aenemic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jun 4, 2008
    I think the main thing here is that maybe those people shouldn't be playing these types of games. I know, I know... gaming is no niche market anymore, and sales figures is more important than actual gameplay. but look at Dark Souls, as someone mentioned before - a really challenging game that has become enormous even in the west. yet there are many players that simply stay away from it, or give up early on because it's too hard. I have recommended it to several people, and at least one has decided not to even try it because it's looks too hard. big deal, he's not raging about it online and demanding an easy mode in the game.

    and earlier today me and a friend were discussing old classic games and how challenging some used to be (JA2 and Terror From The Deep were the main points), while a third friend who is a pretty casual gamer basically said he can't play rpg's or any of these other games we play because he gets stuck really early on and doesn't know what to do. this is a smart guy who's really into sci fi and fantasy. he just doesn't seem to have the right mindset. doesn't make him any less interested in other types of games.

    my point being - why even bother catering to people who only have a fleeting interest? if the game in itself is good enough, it will get a good reputation and people will play it. if it's really challenging, it'll likely become famous because of that - have you ever seen a quality game getting bad reviews because it's challenging? people who actually enjoy the game and have a genuine interest in playing it will put in the effort needed. I really hope Dark Souls is the beginning of a new trend in this regard.
     
  20. maximaz

    maximaz Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 2, 2006
    To be fair, one has to really consider what design elements are common in today's games. If I see a crate, I will break it and expect to find random, health-restoring shit in there because I have been conditioned for that by now, even though it might make no sense given a situation.

    Similarly, if an NPC tells me that I am not supposed to go somewhere, I won't because it usually (as in most modern games) means that I am not supposed to go there yet because that would fuck the game up, not because I am lazy or unwilling to experiment and demand dumbing shit down.

    I'm afraid that someone does have to make it clear that I can and should get up in there, which is not hand-holding when done right.