Congrations NMA, you won.

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Gnarles Bronson, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Soto
    To make things more simple. Let's say NMA was a community of people fond of orange. Wouldn't it make more sense for us to talk about any kind of orange, even if they were called lemon or clementine, rather than waste time talking about apples, pineapple and skateboard that were sold with the orange name on it ? Nothing agains't those who love apples and skateboards, but what brought the community together in the first place was the content of an orange, its color, its smell, its taste, not the word itself. I don't see why we should care about product that only have the orange name, but none of its appeal.
     
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  2. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    Well, we'd care because now only the manufacturers of the other things now have the "Orange" legal rights, and only they can explicitly bring a new selection of Orange, and actually do have a chance of doing so.

    While there are other parties working with apricot, bittersweet, cantaloupe, carrot, coral, peach, salmon, tangerine, titian, andred-yellow and they are something worth checking out and supporting, unless there are changes beyond our possibilities afecting the Orange ownership, people will talk about it because it's not like it has absolutely nothing to do, like say, they do smell like Orange. They and their reception will affect its future, which ideally would be to get closer to True Orange, as it actually has done in the past.

    Nevermind how this faux-Orange is influential by itself and inspires different kinds of third party content.

    ...

    Yes, I used the dictionary for "Orange" synonims, fuck you
     
  3. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    I'm really not sure what Arnust is getting at with that. However I do understand what Naossano is trying to convey.

    An IP is very much similar to a word, or definition of such. When a company acquires an IP they are free to "redefine" its property as they see fit, however they cannot redefine literal words in the case of what defines specific RPG game play mechanics.

    When an IP that is almost entirely defined by specific mechanics then later redesigned to exclude those definitions the IP has not only lost its foundation, but has also falsely advertised itself as something it is by definition not.

    However that's where communities such as NMA come in as an attempt to redirect flow back on track, or at least keep the core elements alive enough for someone to take notice of the deviation. This is a communities only option as they do not have direct control or maintain the rights of a specific IP.

    Basically communities such as NMA are the foundation that maintains the archived perception of what made an IP great. Without such a community the IP would be severely reduced, as well the genre it defines.
     
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  4. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    I didn't see those rules in the link you suggested btw...sort of confused about that. 2 was never adhered to, 3 sounds more like an assessment made after Fo2, kind of surprised 4 isn't gender neutral considering that playing as a woman was always an option. Either way they're fine rules, and this is part of what I mean by broadstrokes. Those are reasonable constraints.

    Traditional just means what or how something was done in that context. I'm not saying I wholeheartedly disagree with what you were saying, nor do I completely agree with Soto. I just don't think it's as simple as one or the other, though I usually hate hearing that kind of thing. The fallacy of balance or moderation isn't my intention.

    However both concept and execution are crucial to what made Fallout games good. Room to evolve and get creative just happens to be conducive to good game design, and I think that is evident in the better titles. Such as how the vaults became experiments. There was no sense of a dark conspiracy in Fallout, but in Fallout 2 that's front and center.

    On a somewhat separate note, if we take examine the 'don't fix what isn't broken' idea from a different perspective, from that of a dev making a new game, it would mean hedging your bet, making a safe game, with tried and true mechanics, and a story based on whatever is popular at present. What would Fallout be if Cain had taken that view? How is an artist to know when something is just right? Were the vaults just right before they became experiments? Were deathclaws perfect before they were made intelligent in Fo2? What of being 3d, in real time, with a 1st and 3rd person perspective? Was it better before? Ultimately I don't think we're really disagreeing, if that was the impression you got. I also don't think anyone is saying Fallout games shouldn't have multiple decisions, freedom, and consequence.
     
  5. SpookyBees

    SpookyBees hiding in a small hole in the middle of the desert

    Mar 12, 2017
  6. RavagersPre

    RavagersPre First time out of the vault

    Nov 15, 2015
    We will have won, at least in my opinion, when Bethesda goes bankrupt and Obsidian buys the Fallout license.
     
  7. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Which is more likely the opposite to happen. Obsidian goes bankrupt and Bethesda buys all of Obsidian IPs.
     
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  8. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    I don't know if anyone here has bothered to keep up to date on the current events of Obsidian, but as they are now you don't want them to have the rights to the Fallout IP. "Why?" Some of you may ask?

    Because what made Obsidian great previously for Fallout New Vegas was mostly the original development team from Fallout 2. However they have all left that company due to Obsidian having complications, and a rather large swath of lay offs.

    I also strongly urge everyone to actually research my statements here, and come to there own conclusions.

    Either way the outcome is that Obsidian could not stack up to New Vegas in its current state. Time to put your hopes in dreams somewhere else.
     
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  9. Ben Soto

    Ben Soto Professional Salt Shaker

    Jul 7, 2014
    Or, my hope, Bethesda fires Todd and Emil and hires the whole New Vegas crew to bolster and lead BGS.
     
  10. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 26, 2007
    It's not like oranges & apples (at least those are both fruit)... FO3 & 4 are officially branded, yet they are nigh polar opposite to Fallout on all fronts... FO3 is practically like Nutella impostering as Vegemite; exploiting the name for its reputation. FO4 is an 'improved' version with more sugar, and added strawberries.
     
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  11. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    You need to research your facts. Obsidian didn't have the original Fo2 team when they made New Vegas. Avellone didn't even write much of the of the base game (he did most of the DLC tho, and those are the ones I have gripes with.
     
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  12. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    You do understand that Obsidian was founded right after Black Isle was dissolved right? And that currently none of those individuals from the original crew currently work for Obsidian anymore. I also never said they had the "full" team to begin with, or perhaps I'm reading too far into your statement?

    From what information I am aware of those that did work on Fallout 2 did indeed have input during the development of Fallout New Vegas.

    Although I can see some of them opting out after the Bethesda contract was read.
     
  13. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 26, 2007
    Everyone here (and ~ergo their spouse and/or parents begrudgingly) knows that.

    But where are you getting your information? I haven't been keeping up, but I am under the impression that Tim Cain is a senior software engineer at Obsidian; Tim Cain—that began making Fallout by himself. And Feargus Urquart is still CEO?
    (Feargus did map work in the Hub, and is himself responsible for putting the Hero Blaster from Blade Runner in Fallout; later used in New Vegas.)

    Last I heard, Leonard Boyarski had signed on too, he designed the look of the Power Armor. Has he left?
     
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  14. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    If anything they have more people from the original team in their ranks now.
     
  15. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    I've heard this whole "The original team has left" bullshit propagated 100 times before.

    Like, I know lots of folks have left, but the only really important leaver was Chris Avellone, who didn't do that much work on the base game anyway. Most of the most important figures in the history of Fallout still work for Obsidian.
     
  16. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015
    The question is, how good they are now and can they handle Arcanum sequel?
     
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  17. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    They did acquire Tim Cain so possibly?
     
  18. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dark side in da houssah

    Nov 22, 2009
  19. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    They lost one frankly overrated writer who only actually worked on the DLC of NV and two companions from Pillars of Eternity, meaning the vast majority of what made those games good happened independently of him(Chris Avellone), and now have one of the most important figures in the history of Fallout who is responsible for a huge amount of well-beloved parts of the franchise including the retrofuturistic side(Leonard Boyarksy)

    That's not a pyrrhic victory by any stretch of the word.
     
  20. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Weird. I didn't remember linking to 'gamepedia', but 'wikia', so try this. Unless.... someone changed it or it's redirected.... http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Vault_13:_A_GURPS_Post-Nuclear_Adventure

    Yeah, #2 wasn't exactly adhered to in Fallout 1&2, but it WAS adhered to by New Vegas. All we needed is give them another chance, another go at the original style of Fallout. And don't forget my mention of Arcanum, there's no useless skill there because those design principle kinda stick to Tim Cain.

    Again, all of those are just technicality; i.e details that would either add or detract from the core principles. But they don't touch the core, hence they're fine so long as they don't deviate too far or even outright ignore the core principles. Like I said before of Soto's argument that Sawyer vs. Avellone, for example, they argued whether Fallout should carry on to post-post-post-apocalyptic, or get nuked back to post-apocalyptic. In this clash of ideas between Sawyer and Avellone, none of them really tried to change by adding or removing the 5 core principle made by Cain and co.

    Edit: Aaaaaand I was right. This fucking site redirected the 'wikia' links to 'gamepedia' instead. This is what I linked in my post:

    I forgot if I ever mentioned this in this thread, but I suggest you watch this guy instead
    Or just read the essay for the video https://pastebin.com/kV9zJkxu

    Edit #2: Got the archive to the whole real deal, take a look at it. Specifically, page 5 https://archive.is/02ipM
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017