So why is Caesar such a dick in New Vegas?

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by TheHouseAlwaysWins, May 18, 2018.

  1. TheHouseAlwaysWins

    TheHouseAlwaysWins It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Nov 28, 2015
    I mean the legion sucks so much they don't have a real sense of Brotherhood to each other at all since everybody is disposable, even Joshua Graham who co-founded the legion and was best friend's with Caesar got thrown under the bus. So why would anybody side with the legion at all??
     
  2. peadar87

    peadar87 Still Mildly Glowing

    Jun 4, 2015
    Because they keep the peace. No bandits, no raiders, no crime, no blackouts, no drought. And for many who grew up in the wasteland, the occasional crucifixion of someone for not much in particular is a small price to pay for that.
     
  3. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    Yes, the "peace" built on enslaving most of its people. So peaceful. No violence at all.
     
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  4. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Mildly Dipped

    Jun 7, 2015
    Most "Great Men" throughout history were big ol' dicks.
     
  5. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    In general, colonialist warlords tend to not to be very good people.
     
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  6. Apollyon

    Apollyon First time out of the vault

    Apr 29, 2017
    The Legion is the only faction that takes steps to avoid the same mistakes that humanity made before the Great War. Caesar recognizes that technology mixed with the human tendency towards conflict is something that makes another Great War inevitable, should humanity go down the same path. By banning or heavily limiting the use and development of technology, they at the very least make a repetition of history less likely.

    I also like Caesar's philosophy in general. He intends to forge a stronger humanity.
    Side-tracking a bit here, but I've been thinking about how the NCR symbolizes corruption of mind (political corruption, consumerism, a desire for comfort) and how Mr. House symbolizes corruption of body (relying on machines to keep him alive and do everything for him). The Legion breaks with both of these. In a way the Legion strives for purity of mind and body, eventhough that doesn't always look pretty.
     
  7. Norzan

    Norzan Mildly Dipped

    Apr 7, 2017
    Caesar's Legion is bringing peace. It is through subjugation and violence but in the end, it is peace. Because there can't be really conflict if you are either under Caeasar's command (a soldier in his army) or under his subjugation (a slave).
     
  8. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    IMO blaming technology is a copout. Humans have never needed technology to be violent. Considering divergence, we can still show that for at least most of human history people became less violent with more of it. The rest we can chalk up to a resource shortage, driven not by the advance of technology but the stagnation of society, which caused a global socioeconomic crisis.

    The main point though is that people hold responsibility for their actions. Technology can't do right or wrong, it can't make choices, it can bear no responsibility. Ultimately it's anti-intellectualism (which the Legion embodies) that drives irresponsible and thus irrational uses of technology. Society doesn't adapt fast enough. People don't evolve fast enough. We're the problem, and the Legion does nothing to fix that, it only makes the real problem worse.

    That's actually called doublethink. Peace cannot be created by starting conflicts. It can only be achieved by ending them. Replacing one conflict with another does not really end anything. Nor can bondage slavery ever be considered peace. Setting that aside, as Caesar himself notes, tribal warfare is child's play compared to what the Legion does. So they actually replace conflict with a much worse one. That's called escalation. Simply drawing a line and saying 'somewhere in the future that'd be peace' is just wishful thinking.
     
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  9. Apollyon

    Apollyon First time out of the vault

    Apr 29, 2017
    It's not a matter of blame or responsibility. Whoever is responsible matters very little when everyone is dead. The fact is that humans should never be trusted with technology that has the power to wipe the planet clean. Technology is the enabler, for without it such destruction would simply be impossible. Keep in mind, we're talking from a Fallout-perspective here, where human civilization has shown it's capable of destroying itself.
     
  10. peadar87

    peadar87 Still Mildly Glowing

    Jun 4, 2015
    Never said it was the right thing to do. But people have sided with monumental assholes out of self-interest, or even perceived utilitarianism, since the beginning to the species.
     
  11. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    Jul 2, 2016
    Technology doesn't create itself though. Intellect is required to create it. If the source of a problem is not addressed, it will eventually reoccur. As the only constant of the universe is change. So if humans persist then culture will change, and society will change. There is no getting off of that ride. No matter how many luddites there are, no matter how hard they try to apply the brakes, the world just keeps on turning. That the Legion won't be producing nukes anytime soon doesn't matter. Neither will the NCR. But down the line both would evolve into something unrecognizable, as always happens. The Legion, being built on anti-intellectualism and constant war, is as good a recipe for a second apocalypse as it gets.
     
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  12. mithrap

    mithrap Ring a ding-ding, baby

    May 17, 2016
    It doesn't mean that there is no brotherhood, it just means that there is absolute egality. A legate is just as disposable as a standard legionary, but being equal in the eyes of a believed higher power can encourage brotherhood, since it creates a common ground between a regular man and his hierarchical superiors.
    It also means that if you are a victim of a crime (or a criminal), your social rank won't matter in the judgement. Cassidy would have been avenged for her caravan, if she lived in Legion's territory, and Alice would have been crucified, even as a member of the high society. It's absolute, heartless equality, for the better and the worse.
    Compare that to the "chain that binds" in the brotherhood of steel, which separates them instead of uniting them. My point is, by the time of New Vegas, you don't exactly see them conquering lands anymore, unlike Caesar.

    That's true, but humans didn't have weapons capable of wiping out entire civilizations in a matter of seconds before. How would the NCR have dealt with Flagstaff or Maxson State, if they had seized the Divide's arsenal ? That's Caesar's concern. He thinks that it's only a matter of time before the Republic goes nuclear and makes the same mistakes the old world did.
    Sure, he's a monster. The legion is made of assholes. But what if that monster and his assholes are the only real power standing in the way of total destruction ?

    Sure, there's House, and there's a reason why I usually side with him. But apart from the Courier and Benny, nobody really KNOWS about House's potential, so...

    A global crisis that witnessed nuclear explosions and the destruction of Europe, Tel Aviv and the U.N., decades before the "great war". And during this one, people were already so desensitized by violence that they didn't mind seeing cold blooded executions of civilians on TV. Humanity was totally fucking fucked, big time, long before the china-US war.

    True, but there is a reason why nobody knows "who shot first" when it came to the big nuclear disaster : it doesn't matter who's responsible. At all.
    What matters is that one of them butchered billions of people one morning, and that mustn't happen again. China or the Enclave could go on and say "we did it, sorry", nobody would even listen to them, because it's irrelevant after the deed is done, nobody is there anymore to grant forgiveness or justice, not even the said governments.

    This is precisely why Caesar took a slavery template for his society : not leaving people the capacity of making choices or bearing responsibility. Also, what risk of irrational uses of technology, when the said technology is systematically wiped out beforehand ? If anything, we see the result of that philosophy in Lanius, when presented to the defeat of the Omertas. He's glad that he lost that very valuable military asset. In his eyes, anything that would be contrary to the philosophy of Caesar would be a misuse and a dishonor. I don't exactly imagine him, Vulpes or Lucius deciding to claim the Securitrons for themselves, if Caesar dies.

    Also, the legion is not anti-intellectual ; its cultural template is made of lies, myths and censorship, but not anti-intellectualism per se. In a single generation, his subjects learned a totally new language PLUS the English, spoken and written, a new made up cult, which means that they have a functional education system. Of all the smart NPCs Caesar meets, every single one of them ends up being promoted to a higher social level, not the contrary (sure, one of them ends up burned and thrown in the grand canyon, but that's not because of intellectualism). He makes no secrets of his philosophical ideas, even to a profligate who could very well tell them to everyone.
    Sure, the whole cult of mars is made of lies, but Caesar doesn't exactly present himself as a hero of the common folk, rising against the tyranny of an intellectual elite, quite the contrary. He invented a new template of intellectualism, made of lies and selected truths, but he doesn't prevent people from reaching it. He wants them to be molded by it, that's not anti intellectualism. Anti progress or anti technology, sure.

    Again, don't get me wrong : the legion is an oppressive dictatorship of heartless slavers and child soldiers. But, gotta leave to Caesar what's due.

    Yes, and that's exactly what Caesar fights against. In his eyes, at the moment the NCR gets nuclear weapons, it will achieve peace by ending every conflict they have, in the fastest way possible.
    In a way, peace was achieved by the nuclear war. The conflict ended in a day, but that's exactly the situation Caesar doesn't want to see. He wants to end this conflict before it even begins, to kill it in its egg. That's a bit different.
    Another nuance, in Caesar's eyes : accelerating a conflict in order to end it quickly and with the minimal damage possible is also part of his plan, since he believes that the civil explosion of the Republic is inevitable. His way would accelerate it, but also end it in the same move.

    They don't have the means to do so, though, since they are kept on a low technological level on purpose. For them to change, they would have to conquer the west, otherwise, they'll keep on conquering tribes like they always did, and have no reason to evolve.
    Not sure how they could end the world without weapons of mass destruction. They could engulf the western America in constant wars (and even then, Lanius himself isn't too sure of their capability to do so), but ending it entirely ? That's beyond their scale. Maybe if they decide to extend their chemical warfare, but that's a long stretch.
    On the other hand, we know for a fact that the brotherhood prefers blowing up their own homes rather than surrendering them to the NCR, and the NCR wouldn't hesitate long if they seized some nuclear arsenal (and let's not even talk about the dangers of Dr.Hildern's projects. The OSI could actually end up the world by accident) If anything, the least dangerous faction in the long run could be Mr.House. Peace (or numbness depending on who you ask) by prosperity and consumerism.

    I would want to agree, but... I don't know. There are times in history when escalation brought war, but prevented something worse. I mean, the Generalplan Ost was prevented by a global escalation. Same for the ethnical projects in Kosovo. So, I don't know. Don't really have an opinion of that, I just have these examples come to mind.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
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  13. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    Mind you, Caesar is just an evil hypocrite.

    He is using chemical weapons on Vegas and used a dirty bomb on Searchlight.

    I see it like this:

    NCR = Looking to Pre-War America and the Past and Democracy
    House=Looking to Pre-War America and the Past and Technology
    Caesar=Looking to FAR FAR Roman Past
    Independence=Looking to the Future
     
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  14. MPPlantOfficial

    MPPlantOfficial Still Mildly Glowing

    Aug 24, 2017
    Inb4:

    "Moralitea iz 4 FEGGET CUX."

    Wait. Wrong forum.
     
  15. a721402

    a721402 How do you outdoom doom?

    Mar 29, 2016
    The Master and his followers are the only ones actually know the reason why we can't have peace and also actually know the way to fix it, too bad the Vault Dweller don't think so.
     
  16. President_Peaches

    President_Peaches First time out of the vault

    Mar 4, 2018
    Brainwashing and indoctrination, combined with the deep sense of camaraderie between the men of the legion. It is rare for the Legion to adopt adult men in to their ranks, they are either the boy children of destroyed tribes or the offspring of the Legion's sex slaves. The Legion is all they have ever known.

    The few tribals that have been brought in as adults are probably in awe of the Legion's power, cohesion and relative prosperity in comparison to their "hand to mouth" tribal existence. In theory any mighty warrior in Ceasar's army could work up the ranks and have a cool suit of armour, powerful weapons and all the slaves they could ever want. It has an understandable appeal to savage tribesmen.
     
  17. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Half-way Through My Half-life

    Sep 17, 2016
    I think the Enclave's plan is much better.

    Just kill everyone else.

    The American Way.
     
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  18. Veers

    Veers Fire when ready.

    Jan 3, 2017
    Only if you were captured. Coming in willingly, passing through their lands, or swearing fealty to Caesar let you be left alone. For many in the post-apocalyptic world, one enslaved war captive is worth a roadway free of raiders and mutants.
     
  19. Cale

    Cale First time out of the vault

    Jun 17, 2018
    cuz he's alpha