Bethesda to use Gamebryo for Starfield and TES6

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by Mr Fish, Nov 14, 2018.

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  1. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish ...The pain of being dead...

    Sep 11, 2010
    Sauce: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insert...has-gone-from-meme-to-liability/#5c6ae2f7123a

    This isn’t really just a meme anymore, Bethesda’s engine is an active turn-off, and I am concerned that they seem to be determined to keep just upgrading and upgrading the engine for future games like Starfield and ES6, rather than wiping the slate clean.

    “For Fallout 76 we have changed a lot,” Todd Howard told Gamestar this year. “The game uses a new renderer, a new lighting system and a new system for the landscape generation. For Starfield even more of it changes. And for The Elder Scrolls 6, out there on the horizon even more. We like our editor. It allows us to create worlds really fast and the modders know it really well. There are some elementary ways we create our games and that will continue because that lets us be efficient and we think it works best.”

    Buckle up buckarinos, this means we get even more stuff to laugh at in the future!
     
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  2. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 7, 2017
    Their clinging to an ancient engine is really sad at this point. Specially when companies like CD Projekt Red that have an engine that can do far much more and with much better perfomance. It really makes the Gamebryo look like it was made by amateurs.
     
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  3. maximaz

    maximaz Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 2, 2006
    Mind truly boggles that they've been using this engine for so long and it streamlines things for them so much yet there are so many problems with their games both in terms of bugs and just things they couldn't be arsed to do properly.
     
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  4. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    858
    Apr 22, 2016
    Mr. Todd Howard is really sugar coating the issue here.
    First off the foundation on which the creation engine is built upon is not only obsolete but it's rotting. At least in the sense that it's not longer capable of competing with other engines in a reasonably remote sense.

    The reality is this:
    It costs a lot of money to update such a core component of their production pipe line.
    1. Licensing a new engine.
    2. Teaching the developers how to use the engine.
    3. Teaching the programmers the ins & outs of the engine.
    4. Understanding what the engine can or cannot do.
    5. Will take considerably more time to produce a marketable product.
    6. Some employees unwilling to adapt will be let go, and new labor hired.
    7. Generating the various utilities and software to manipulate the engine and it's input/output.
    Bethesda Games Studios is far more interested in an assembly line style of product to market business model. Therefore any deviation from such a lucrative system endangers their profit margin.

    Let's be honest though, the choice to not advance to a newer more competent engine is simply because their far more interested in producing cookie cutter products rather than inherently creative products.

    After reading Mr. Howard's quote I could only think of how incredibly lazy his statement is.
    "It allows us to create worlds really fast and the modders know it really well."

    Anyone in the game development industry that advocates such a stance on creative content generation is an insipid dolt that should be transitioned from the business.
     
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  5. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Sandman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    I expected them to be doing R&D for this at the very least. I would personally try to salvage the engine the best I could at least on the mod tools side. But we know they don't give a fuck about the player so the whole thing becomes...well you saw Mass Effect: Andromeda? I hope that is the next Elder Scrolls for Bethesda. A big wet fart. It could be argued that is what 76 has become.
     
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  6. RangerBoo

    RangerBoo Vault Fossil

    Jun 15, 2015
    I like how Todd admitted that, yes, Bethesda piggy back off their modding community. This is just pathetic.
     
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  7. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 26, 2007
    I don't have a problem with Gamebryo.

    *A peeve perhaps... the diagonal running issue, but other than that, it doesn't really bother me. For me, Gamebryo is not a strike against a product.... Though unfortunately their studio name is become synonymous with sandbox-sim/RPG-lite —and that tends to count as a strike in my book. They just don't make anything that interests me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  8. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    I think it is not the problem of it being Gamebryo, it is a problem on how Bethesda uses Gamebryo... Oh sorry, Creation Engine now.

    There have been tons of games made in Gamebryo that do not have the problems Bethesda games do. Civilization 4 for example, Empire Earth 2 and 3, Freedom Force and Freedom Force vs 3rd Reich, Tenchu Shadow Assassins, Lego Universe, The Guild 2, Divinity 2, Warhammer Online AoR and WH, Bully, and plenty of others.

    Also I think quite a few problems in Bethesda's games come from them not optimizing Havok in together with Gamebryo.
    And then there are bugs that they know about and just don't care to fix. If they spent time and resources on it, they could improve the engine quite a lot.

    Unreal engine exists since 1998. And yet it has been developed and updated continuously to what we have now. Gamebryo could do the same.
     
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  9. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 26, 2007
    There is definitely a problem with how they use it; and most noticeably so with the Fallout IP.

    What did strike me as odd, is that Todd mentions that they use a new renderer, but I was under the impression that Gamebryo is primarily a just a renderer, with modular added functionality. So if the renderer is changed... is it not actually Gamebryo anymore?—technically...

    (Think: Robocop... with his head replaced.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
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  10. Rheios

    Rheios Mr. House's Employee of the Apocalypse

    103
    Oct 22, 2018
    I've said elsewhere and it boils down to this for me: If they were making actual, well made, expansive, choice driven RPGs? I wouldn't care that much about the engine save for them needing to hammer out some bugs. There's a reason games like Fallout and Baldur's Gate are still appealing to this day and its not what their engines or even what little their UIs do. Those things can be bad (you'd hope they wouldn't be of course) and you can still have an amazing RPG.

    Rant starts here:
    But Bethesda isn't making RPGs. They claim to be but I seriously question anyone claiming that what they generate could be recreated at a table and not be a colossal waste of time at best, and an insult to the players at worst. What they're making are Borderlands-esk combat games without the dedication to anything as novel as even seen in *those* games, so far as story and content go (and that's accounting for Borderlands 1's atrocious ending). And they're doing these things in franchises with worlds explicitly built to not support that style of play. There's a reason picking a setting for a campaign is important. You can't roll Dark Sun as a goofy adventure without flagrantizing the setting - destroying its impact and the reason for picking it - and you can't put this sort of Run-gun-build narrated plot in a Choice driven post-apocalyptic world or a weirdly apocalyptic fantasy one and any of it retain its meaning or the former game loop retain its fun. Path of Exile, for example, has a similar cycular play style that retains its fun and intriguing by having a dark and changing world (with each major release they update the plot, most majorly on the last build) that you experience corrupting and saving with your own selfish actions and the slow reveal that even at the height of your power there are things in the darkness of the past, future, and beyond that will still consume you. It supports these concepts of power and the unknown by having a hugely variable customization system for even their skill and passive mechanics that allow you to go a little further each time and everything from the world up and top down is built to interface and support eachother. Many of their brief leagues have more developed and connected plots than anything Bethesda's put out in years. That's not me trying to kiss GOG's ass either. There are problems and it took them way too many years to finish fixing the original grindey loop problems, but compared to Bethesda they're moving at lightspeed.

    Bethesda doesn't care, of course, because like Einhander said, they're interested in pumping things out quickly without doing anything that would enable their version of Gamebryo to be in any way forgivable. And how do they support any story in those games? Well if Fallout 4 is any indication? They let everyone just make a shitty quest for it without regard for their experience, ability, setting knowledge, or even interest in the game. Its faster for them because anyone can do it and that means less money needs to be spent on planning or achieving anything more meaningful than slapping jokes, skeletons and fetch quests in places.
     
  11. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Nov 26, 2007
    What they make—the only thing they care about, is the digital equivalent of a perfect Delos. That's what they sell; in sand-boxed form.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  12. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Sandman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    If we are talking their shit engine, games like New Vegas have giant memory holes that drain your fucking RAM until you crash. Whatever is causing that is bad.
     
  13. Rheios

    Rheios Mr. House's Employee of the Apocalypse

    103
    Oct 22, 2018
    Y'know, I've never watched Westworld, but from just that blurb it sounds about right. Even some of the critic reviews on 76 so far talk about how the game fits that. Each area is a little theme-park gimmick area.

    I've heard that about the New Vegas leak but haven't experienced it. So either a modder fixed it in the patch, it's circumstantial, or more likely I just have enough RAM it doesn't ever get to be an issue when I play.
     
  14. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    TLDR stop using the engine as the scapegoat, pretty much. There's other modern games who've used it to just fine effect, and the only half truth is that it'll still probably *feel* the same. (even if I tried playing 3/NV a bit recently with TTW and that was a harch transition back from F76, holy shit the jank)
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  15. nkchan16

    nkchan16 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    340
    Jul 27, 2016
    That Kotaku article itself is a "misguided", uninformed, apologetic piece of shit. Yes, the "engine" is a multipart framework and Bethesda has rewritten certain parts of it, in fact more than once, mostly the renderer, in order to not look "outdated", but the "engine" still uses code and architecture from NetImmerse and Gamebryo, therefore has limitations inherited from them. Would a state of the art engine allow them to make better games? I doubt it, as they could do much better with the one they have now, if they really wanted.

    That should tell you what kind of a person wrote the Kotaku article. YongYea is just a guy with his opinions, in fact he's usually fairly mild and apologetic about game developers.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
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  16. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    858
    Apr 22, 2016
    I'm not going to rant about the engine again, as I'm quite sure most if not all of you know my perspective.

    So I'll keep it short. The engine is a raging dumpster fire full of dead puppies, Kotaku is by far one of the worst game journalism websites due to how obviously biased they are with their "sponsors", and no fluff piece is going to convince me of the objective facts of the situation.

    Do a simple search on google or youtube in relation to Fallout 76, you may not be surprised the great amount of videos or articles depreciating Bethesda Game Studios, their engine, and Fallout 76 as well by extension the Fallout brand itself.
     
  17. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 7, 2017
    Taking a Kotaku article seriously, some people actually do this still. It's not like these are the same idiots that defended fucking microtransactions in 60 bucks games and come to the defense of AAA companies when they pull major bullshit.
     
  18. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    Oight, enjoy doing what Bethesda surely actually wants you to focus on, a scapegoat that is "the engine", and not their technical proficiency and general MO about it. I'm sure that if you screech about it enough and are so defensive about it. It's not like as, it is commonly said, that modders keep managing to "somehow" completely up Bethesda in what is possible to do in the current framework. They must be some sort of precognitive wizards that have always lied about not having access to engine tools, considering that, at the same time, somehow what Bethesda does with it seems to be the real limit of it.

    It's hilarious to see developers be called lazy when they're provably already overworked, and if somehow code is testament of creativity. Not recycling and making the most of the avaleible assets is pretty much a sin, because they don't ensue creativity. Content is. And Bethesda has been failing more and more in that latter category, as well a polish, the bridge between both. The only reason anybody really gives a shit about engines is because some studios brought it on themselves, when they prominently have featured them in their marketing, IE Frostbite or indeed Creation/Gamebryo's remarkable modularity that's earned Bethesda a relatively unique case of a modding scene.

    Pretty cute how y'all claim to be all woke about this or whatever but don't have a clue of how game journalism sites work as of today. Particularly in this case, where they have been blacklisted by Bethesda since 2013...
     
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  19. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    926
    Dec 6, 2016
    wow, Bully was made in gamebryo? Why? Since when R* needs other companies engines?
     
  20. a721402

    a721402 Played FPS for decades still suck at it.

    710
    Mar 29, 2016
    Rockstar start to making games with their own engine around the time of 7th gen consoles, and bully is a 6th gen console game.