Bethesda to use Gamebryo for Starfield and TES6

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by Mr Fish, Nov 14, 2018.

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  1. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Dec 6, 2016
    Oh, I did not know.

    And after all, what avatar is this one that you use? Every time I look I think it's a Madolche card, but then I remember that it's not

  2. a721402

    a721402 Played FPS for decades still suck at it.

    Mar 29, 2016
    It's a character from Touhou Project.
  3. nkchan16

    nkchan16 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 27, 2016

    If Bethesda can show me ladders usable by AI, caves, buildings and other types of interior of spaces that can be accessed without a loading screen and much greater view distances that can display both NPCs and critters, and get rid of all light sources that don't actually emit light etc. in their next game, I may be convinced that they don't need a new engine.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  4. God, that video. "I have no fucking idea of how this or any engines actually work, but it MUST be the engine!" Totally not trying to bank on pseudo drama from being mentioned in a single phrase :lalala:

    Fallout 4
    Fallout 76
    They can go through them just like you, not sure what point would they serve when ladders are rarer than good writing in these games.
  5. nkchan16

    nkchan16 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 27, 2016
    Don't know about the light situation in FO4, but there was a limitation on the number of light sources that can be used in a cell (without one of them keeps turning off) in both Skyrim and Skyrim SE. That's why they introduced lights that don't emit light. From what I've seen in FO4, int/ext cell transitions still require either a loading screen or an elevator (loads the cell in bg) which is nothing like say, The Witcher 3.

    FO76 doesn't even have NPCs, it even seems to have issues rendering neighboring ext. cells, let alone cells full of NPCs running radiant AI, which is probably one of the reasons why FO76 doesn't have NPCs.

    BTW, the seemingly increased view distance in FO76 doesn't mean that the engine actually loads all those cells, that's why I mentioned NPCs and critters.

    There's not a single BGS game that includes ladders that the player can climb, let alone can used by the AI, possibly due to the limitations of their navmeshes. The quality of the writing has nothing to do with their engine.

    Something I forgot to mention is that you can't have a fast land/air vehicle in a BGS game because of the cell-based architecture of their engine, having one would possibly turn the game into a shit show. A rather important limitation in my opinion.

    He defends himself against a false accusation by a so called "journalist" who seems to like sucking corporate dick, why does that bother you?
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
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  6. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Nov 26, 2007
    The AI has always had a problem with elevation. Ladders are rare to nonexistent... so that they don't have to deal with them. The Antagonizer's ladder was an exit, and all other ladders in FO3 (AFAIK) are decorative/ non-functional... like those on the box cars in the train yard.

    Just my (uninformed) guess, but I'd bet it was a navmesh issue, in the evaluation of distance to the target.

    I know that in Oblivion, the AI had no clue how to deal with elevation; easily seen in the arena, where they would flail away (or do nothing) at the PC who could be ten feet above them; due to the physics enabled decorative chains on the arena columns, that any PC with a high enough agility could climb.

    It is possible—and without cheating, to climb over the arena wall (into what looks like a theatrical back-lot with none of the arena's interior. It's a different map). Also to climb over the city wall of Tamriel in the temple quarter (and other cities as well); and there is even a (totally unused—let-down vagrant's hideaway/assassin's roost on top of the wall).

    The game still assumes you are inside the wall, so it uses reduced textures, and anything not assumed visible from inside, is not rendered at all.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  7. SquidVan

    SquidVan Pirate and Bankrobber oTO Orderite

    Jun 1, 2018
    Huh, I don't know much about engines but I always figured there was some core part of the Gamebryo/Creation engine that had some flaw in it that they couldn't fix. Wasn't aware other games used it too and worked mostly fine with it.
    That's a bigger ouch than holding onto the engine if it did have a core problem. I guess they are just doing something wrong with it then?

    If so, that's fairly bad for such a big company.
  8. nkchan16

    nkchan16 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 27, 2016
    Not sure what the oldest 3D game in which both the AI and the player could climb ladders was, but I know that the 1999 game R6 Rogue Spear had it. So, almost 20 years later Bethesda still can't do ladders.
  9. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    For those that are curious:

    That page outlines a great many issues the Gamebryo/Creation engine has.

    The software has become obsolete, and is a significant issue to development due to it's exceptionally limited capacity. This is in regard to the purpose which it is used for by Bethesda Games Studios.

    However personally, the engine's inability to be functionally adapted to more modern uses is it's real Achilles heel.
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 7
  10. nkchan16

    nkchan16 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jul 27, 2016
    If I were to choose an engine for the types of open-world games Bethesda makes, I'd probably pick one that is capable of doing military simulations (land/air/naval combat) as the base and add everything else on top of it. Support for destructible terrain would also be nice.
  11. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Nov 26, 2007
    Futurama had ladders: Don't know if the AI can use them.

    Did Bully have ladders? Apparently Bully did have the same AI issue as seen in the Oblivion clip; Jimmy could hop on to a car and pick off targets with his infinite ammo slingshot.
  12. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Yer fond of me Lobster!

    Oct 26, 2016
    Bully definitely had ladders. @ 2:20 timestamp.

    The Hero engine that SWTOR was built on is a good engine - the problem was Bioware Austin took the engine and butchered and jury-rigged components onto it in order to make it work for an MMO. It didn't pan out and ended up limiting (severely) what they could do with large PvP encounters.

    Unity is a very good engine yet we've seen mixed results come out from devs that are just cash grabbing with store bought assets. Then there are gems like Endless Space 2 and you're like "this was made with Unity?"

    The problem sits with Bethesda, and not necessarily the Gamebyro engine. It's still updated in the same manner Source is. Bully didn't have problems getting functioning ladders but for one reason or another Bethesda couldn't figure it out.

    With Creation Engine onward we haven't really seen an evolution in the tech that isn't just a visual facade. Vertical navigation is still composed of two things: Jumping or interacting with an object to teleport you there.

    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
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  13. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Gamebryo isn't necessarily bad by itself. Lots of games and devs used it, and it can work fine.
    The problem is Bethesda and their unwillingness to really develop or learn new tech.
  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    As much as I love to give Bethesda shit about their engine, I always had the opinion, it's the artist that make the tools, not the tools the artist.

    And this is true for engines and games as well. As someone accurately said, it's not so much the engine but how Bethesda is using it. The modding comunity in particular has demonstrated nicely what can be done with enough dedication and correct work. They pushed the limits of it. I wish I would know what is actually causing all this issue for Bethesda and the reason why they always deliver such a badly optimised product full of bugs, but my guess is, they just don't care and it doesn't fitt in to Todds concepts. It's cheaper to simply not test it as much as it might be required and optimisation can be a very long and costly process. Why do it, when you know the players will buy it and modders will fix it - eventually. The other side is how I feel Todd Howard is approaching projects. He never seems to be someone who's very fond of pre-production or thinking ahead in terms of themes and the general direction, he's simply 'doing' things, to say it that way. He once mentioned how he doesn't like pre-productions and they always go from the design phase directly to the coding and work. Yeah well, that also explains a damn lot.'

    To make this short, a new engine would change absolutely nothing for Bethesda. It's like as if you give a mediocre artist who lacks visions the best possible tools, you will still end up with nothing but mediocre work. With better colours.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
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  15. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Nov 26, 2007
    I would guess that it has (at least partly) something to do with multi-platform releases; core accommodations for one platform affecting the implementation on another.
  16. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Good point. However, Bethesda always had issues with optimisation and bug-testing even before Morrowind, which was if I remember one of their first games that would see a release on mutliple platforms. Though I think Morrowind was the last game they made strictly with the PC in mind. - And it really shows when you compare the interface of Morrowind with any of their later games.
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  17. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Snug Rubber

    Sep 11, 2010
    Well, an engine has to have some limit.
    So maybe the engine is good... For other games.
    But is the engine right for the type of game Bethesda wants to do?

    Big open world, right?
    Where there's a mindboggling amount of objects that can be moved and which the game has to register that they have been moved or even removed. From a tin can you kicked when you walked across it to every burnt book being tossed around the library as a grenade is used.
    NPC's (apart from F76) that are scripted to do certain daily chores and for the game to keep track of every single one of these. Remember that these are not some RNG NPC's that are just spawned in to look the part. Like pedestrians in GTA. Even raiders have a timetable that the game has to keep track of.
    And then we have quests, even if they are simplistic it is still stuff the game needs to keep track of.

    And that's not even going into the actual technical stuff.

    So maybe if you want to do a game like Bully then the engine could work really really well.
    But if you want to do a typical Bethesda game, is it really suited for it at this point?
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  18. RangerBoo

    RangerBoo Resident crazy lady

    Jun 15, 2015
    I have to agree with you there Fish. As someone who has worked with the engine, it is difficult to get it to do what I want it to do. I have to be careful with how many objects and NPC's I add into the game. Sometimes the scripts won't work despite the script being correct. The GECK is very fickle mistress to work with. For a open world RPG a better engine is needed. With open world games like The Witcher 3 and Red Dead 2, the Creation Engine just won't cut it for what people expect of open world games now.
  19. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Yer fond of me Lobster!

    Oct 26, 2016
    I was always under the impression that what @Mr Fish listed was the reason they stuck to the engine. At least that's what they like to say it's good at handling. Regardless, they need to rethink their strategy and update the engine concurrently with other projects. Maybe stop inflating little Pete's marketing budget?
  20. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    Apr 22, 2016
    I drafted an entire lecture pointing out a whole bunch of points for everyone's input.
    Then figured it wasn't even worth it.

    From my perspective Bethesda Games Studio is circling the sewer drain, and I'm standing on the sidewalk just blowing into it's sails toward the drain. It of course doesn't help that their little boat is rickety as hell, has a whole bunch of leaks, and the rudder broke a long time ago.