Climate Change is not real!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Jul 26, 2019.

  1. Korin

    Korin Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
    Admin

    Aug 6, 2010
    Different strokes for different folks, love her or hate her she gets crazy visibility to a demographic that may not have paid that much attention. The only way stuff like this gets changed is at the government level and the only way that happens is when you can whip the population into a fervor. I often ask some of these climate deniers whether they remember things like acid rain, holes in the ozones layer, or increases in environmental lead from gasoline and most either don't or only vaguely. These were all comparable world wide issues (presented by a consensus of scientists) that went through similar media cycles of people calling for action and being met with dismissal and claims that it was fake, overstated, not man made, etc. The reason you don't often hear about any of these anymore is because they were all addressed through governmental regulation. It should also be no surprise that the biggest and most funded pushback against every one of these was the corporations that profited from those emissions (in particular oil companies with leaded gasoline). This has not changed in the present day and energy companies don't function any differently. People seem more accepting of the fact that tobacco companies would try to manipulate citizens and politicians for their own ends than an oil company doing the exact same thing. Oil companies are so much worse because those roots run way deeper at every level of everything. Like tobacco companies have lobbyists but they are nothing compared to what oil companies can do.

    Going back to Greta, the amount of vitriol she gets from climate deniers is actually crazy. She is simultaneously considered a child who doesn't know anything and also held up as basically an avatar of climate scientists who spend decades in that field of research. Also crazy to see how much digging people will do to try and say she uses "too much" carbon and expect her to basically use nothing to get her message across. Besides the fact that's a fallacy of hypocrisy that doesn't affect the reality that her net impact on carbon use is likely to be far greater than the inconsequential amount of carbon she produces doing it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
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  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Except that this time Korin, it's different. Each of the points you mentioned, like the hole in the Ozon layer, acid rain and many other issues like tobacco, asbestos, DDT, they required a relatively small change compared to what is in front of us now, like regulating Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) and hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFCs) in industrial products. It wasn't an economic question. Removing CFC/HCFC didn't require from us to buy less products or to completely dispose of fridges. Most of the time technology could fix those issues. Replace the harmful element with something else or simply filter it out, problem solved.

    But the issue we're facing now goes much deeper. It's not about Co2 like how many people say. In fact Co2 is not even the real problem here. It's that we're releasing to much of it. Even if we would stop tomorrow with it, we still would be running with full force at a global catastrophe. Some people believe all we would have to do is to replace normal cars with electric cars and just use solar power or something else to run them and the issue would be fixed. This however isn't going to solve it. If you really take it serious it's about the way how we live. The way how we consume products, how we create them, how we generate power. How we are always making more and more of it. It's about the system the system we live in is the problem. It might have even something to do with social issues, the haves and have nots, how poverty and wealth is created and so on. The more money someone or nations have the higher is their industrial output, the larger the destruction and effect on the environment. The US military for example is creating more pollution than some smaller countries out there. And I believe this is one of the reasons why there hasn't been a real change even though we know about global warming since the early 1950s - you can look up educational films where they talked about many issues that we see today in the environment. The fossil fuel industry knew about it at least since the 1970s when their own researchers made studies about the effect the burning of fossil fuels had on the global environment. And the general public knows about it at the very least since the early 1990s.

    What we really need to do to prevent this ecological collapse would be a change in our habits. We need to change the way how we consume products. But endless consumerism is the foundation of our whole global economic model, our way of life and how we define wealth, the GDB, economic grow rates we use all kinds of ways to measure wealth that way even if it leads to completely bizarre situations where natural catastrophes increase the GDP because after all the homes and cars have been destroyed ... guess what? People buy new ones. So the GDP grows. China creates whole ghost cities for millions of people without anyone living there to boost their GDP. Some call it capitalism but that's not really accurate I am afraid - not anymore even I had to change my mind on that one. I don't know what to call it to be honest. It's like a monster sitting in the background. And I have no clue if there is even an alternative really as the more I think about it, the more do I believe that our human nature is the problem here. Maybe we are doomed as a species. Maybe as individuals we can do changes and regulations to prevent some issues, like the Ozon layer. But a change of our habits? How do you manage that people get rid of their greed for example? You could probably also ask how do you get aggression out of humanity or competitiveness. Socialism tried somewhat to change humans and their nature but it failed spectacularly. And Millions had to suffer and died as the result. We seem to have it in us somewhere that we always want more.

    It also is an issue that hits America a lot harder then others when you look at it from a cultural side. Because Americans are not used to this idea or concept of abdication and working with physical limitations. It's not part of the American culture. The US is about exploration and exploitation of nature, natural resource, always with the goal of more improvements and more wealth in mind driven by the idea of liberty and personal freedom. If there happens to be a problem like overcrowding and poverty, people started to move, they moved either to the west or further inland away from the coasts, they started cultivating new lands and if that wasn't possible anymore Americans started to become more efficient, boosting production, digging deeper for resources, making larger machines developing new technologies and so on. It is no coincidence that America created the largest economy humanity has ever seen. Industrialisation might have started in Britain, but the US really got it to perfection. And they exported this idea globally because everyone had to compete with each other in some sense.

    But what happens now when you tell such a culture which never had to hit a hard limit that couldn't be overcome by technology or exploration that there is simply not enough anymore for everyone? Or that you actually have to divide the land and the resources now in a way where everyone can have a more or less decent life. Not too poor but not to rich either.

    Maybe we simply can't change as a species.
     
  3. The Dopamine Cleric

    The Dopamine Cleric Orderite

    Nov 3, 2007
    Well if Call of Duty: Modern Warfare has anything to say, we've almost died 30 times in the last month but the Scottish SAS have everything handled.

    boom boom pew pew boom boom pew pew microtransactions pew pew mass extinctions pew pew genocide pew cancer baby pew.
     
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  4. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
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  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    The more rads you get for this post, the more ironic would that post become.
     
  6. The Dopamine Cleric

    The Dopamine Cleric Orderite

    Nov 3, 2007
    No money in free.
     
  7. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 27, 2003
    My issue with Greta is she clearly wants attention.

    If she were to really 'spit truth', she would crap on Joe Plebe and' as Crni has said, tell people to not consume so much. She would tell people to stop fucking so much', or use contraceptives, or pull out. She would tell people to stop using so much electricity and find an alternative. She, and people lile her, shouldn't use FEAR Mongering, to get her point across. She would tell scientists to explain to Joe Plebe , a step by step, month by month, or year by year plan, on how each tax increase would SPECIFICALLY fix the environment.

    But she knows better. Attacking Joe Plebe and offering REAL solutions isn't hip or cool. But screaming and yelling at world leaders, however useless it may be, will bring her the attention she craves.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
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  8. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I don't think it's her that wants attention. It smells too much like an astroturfed campaign to give weight to unpopular policies. Everything about her is designed to result in maximum emotional response (good or bad) and immunity from criticism. It's not the first time a teenager has been put on the forefront of a movement (not even the first time it's been done for climate), it's just that these days astroturfing has much better technological means.
     
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  9. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 27, 2003
    She needs attention, thats the whole point of her shenanigans. Like I said before, had she really wanted change, her real target should be kida lile herself and Joe Plebe in general.

    But yea, whether she actually wants the attention or merely gains it indirectly, she clearly operates more lile a demagogue than someone who is at a debate competiton.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  10. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    Snowed on Halloween.

    Where is your Global Warming Now?
     
  11. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Bo Son oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005


    The speeches aren't as effective when you leave out...HOW DARE YOU!
     
  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Or when you leave out social networks and the internet.
     
  13. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Greta definitely benefitted from modern astroturfing methods.
    Must really suck for her that she went on that whole bombastic trip on the sailboat to attend the conference in Chile only to have it cancelled. Now she only became a meme in the US for going "How dare you" to a few people who don't really care.
    Speaking of "don't really care", the german Green party now wants to ban flights within Germany and instead invest lots of money into trains. Good thing, I'd agree, if our fucking megaretarded Greens hadn't fought tooth and nails against building a maglev train just twelve years ago. That same kind of maglev train that the chinese are now using succesfully.
    Back then they were like "it costs almost two billion and will cost another billion", and now they want to invest three billion per year into our rotting train infrastructure. I know, hindsight is 20/20, but y'know, basically everything the Greens fucked up in the past was obvious to anyone with an IQ above room temperature (in Celsius, for the imperially impaired). They wanted coal power plants in favour of nuclear power plants, and now they just don't want either. They fought against ISDN and Internet and technology, and now they complain about bad IT infrastructure.
    It's gonna go on like that. Every ten to twenty years they'll silently change their opposition and rebrand themselves as those who have always been for progress. Except that they're only for outlawing things and providing no solutions. And how could they, they're a bunch of useless fucking idiots who either studied something stupid and directly went into politics, or failed university and then went directly into politics. They don't have people who actually learned something useful, or who actually have experience with the world. They're fucking cancer. Can't wait for the final collapse and see them hanged from the streetlights.
     
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  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    From what I have read it's not as successful as it seems. There are so many positive messages from China but when you dig a little deeper it well ... changes a bit. China is releasing so much propaganda these days that I take every statement they release with a huge bag of salt. - Even if I would usually see it as positive like environmental protection. I can only cringe when I read how much cock sucking environmentalists here do with everything China. OMG! Look China! And we are so shit! Like the Solar Roadways project in China, which they share over and over again ... strange that you never hear from all the projects that have been actually failures. And the Chinese media definitively doesn't release information about issues.

    The train line connects Shanghai Pudong International Airport and Longyang Road Station (in the outskirts of central Pudong), where passengers can interchange to the Shanghai Metro to continue their trip to the city center. The line is not part of the Shanghai Metro network, which operates its own service to Pudong Airport from central Shanghai and Longyang Road Station. It cost $1.2 billion to build.[2] The line's balance of payments has been in huge deficit since its opening.
    (...)

    Operating costs[edit]
    A 2007 statement by Transrapid USA said with 4 million passengers in 2006 the system was able to cover its operating costs. The ratio of costs were given as: 64%-energy, 19%-maintenance & 17%-operations/support services; no amount was given. The high proportion of energy costs was attributed to the short trip time and high operating speed.[16] However, according to Chinese media's report, due to the huge costs of operating and the lack of the passenger flow, Shanghai Maglev Transportation Company would lose 500 million to 700 million RMB every year.[17]

    The Shanghai maglev train barelly get it's cost in, it sees a lot of maintenance and it's not much faster compared to the alternatives, some people even reported there is some sort of vibration issue when the train moves at high speed.

    But it was a good business for German companies. That much for sure!

    I am not saying it speaks for the technology as a whole but if we use China as reference ... it seems they didn't really invest all to much in that technology either as they still decided to expanded their high speed rail network with typical trains and not Meglev Trains. This might change at some point in the future. Who knows. But I wouldn't hold my breath for the Meglev technology.
     
  15. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    At least they're operating it. The problem with these technologies is that you have to use them properly to make them useful. The track length in Shanghai is too short to make it effective, but the high cost of making longer tracks scares people.
    We could invest in Inductrack technology, but I guarantee you that the Greens will be against that, too.
    It's gonna be fun when we invest massively into trains, and electromobility... And "suddenly" run out of power. Who could have foreseen that. Well, obviously anyone with an IQ above room temperature, but we already established that...
    Ah, the collapse is going to be fun. Can't wait. I'll be watching from somewhere else, though.
     
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  16. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Ah yes, an allem sind die Grünen schuld. Don't get me wrong I agree that there is a lot of retardation with the greens. But I think we shouldn't forget that conservatives and social democrats actually have been in government for the past 20-25 years and pretty much holding all the important ministeries. Not the greens.

    I think your opinion here, with all respect, is a bit biased when you completely ignore the conservative and social democratic elephant in the room. It's not the greens which have been calling the shots for the last 20 years my friend. Klöcker, Leyen, Scheurer, Dobrindt, Scholz, Nahles, Hubertus Heil and many more. Conservatives and Social democrats. Yes Kretschmann is a conservative with the wrong (green) colours and an Idiot. But let us not forget, the CSU (ultra conservative) have been in charge over the Department of Transportation and it might seem Scheurer will get soon a political enema for his absolutely desastreus Maut-Project. Why that Fucker is still in charge is beyond me. Probably licked the correct boots.

    So I am really not sure why you're solely shitting on the greens here when they had like the least responsibility - politically. Germany is not a green dictatorship. Not yet anyway. Sure they screech around like you say but that's it. When it comes to making decisions, they are powerless for the most part.

    We Germans are retarded in general when it comes to new technologies and implementing things that make sense. We hate to change things. It's a general problem and not a "green" one.

    To give you one example which had nothing to do with politics but simply retardation. 1 year ago I was attending a school kinda like a college. They had no free internet access. I asked the teachers why and if we're still in the stone age? She said a couple of years ago the school had actually plans to do it and wanted to offer free wireless internet for all students ... but guess what? A few students omplained the wireless network would be harmful. So the school cancelled it.

    And this happens over and over again ... same discussion with 5G right now where people report head aches before those fucking antennas are even operational. This is in my opinion the biggest problem.
     
  17. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Yeah, and guess who's always at the forefront of "ooooh that technology is probably harmful"? Exactly. The most luddite idiots are, in fact, the green ones. Yeah, you got the old conservative farts going "back in my day we didn't have that", but those against technology on the basis of either "harmful radiation" or "it'll enable baaad thooooouuuughts" are the Greens.
    The Greens are not calling the shots directly, but they form the basis of a lot of stupid decisions with non-parlamentary movements, which is their origin. The conservatives are retarded, of course, but they're usually just incompetent (like that stupid Maut thing. Forcing a Maut that won't affect Germans was doomed to fail from the start, but noooo, let's brute force it until prolapse). The Greens are maliciously ignorant and zealous about it, too.
    The conservatards are dying, but the Greens are growing. But hey, as I said, I'll watch it from the sidelines.

    Also, China is now building 1000 km of new Transrapid tracks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  18. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Which I am sure is not just your opinion which might be biased due to the media you consume but also backed up by extensive research and unbiased sources collecting a very huge amount of data.

    No seriously Hass, I love to bash the greens for their ridiculous stuff just as much like the next guy. But it gets very often done in a way where I think to my self, wait a min who's right now in government and leading all the ministries? Why are we even talking about it?

    Also I think the most ridiculous people right now that you can find - politically, are probably within the AfD. Flat earthers are a joke compared to some of the people that run around there.

    They are also building one ghost city after another and thousands of other projects which are nothing more but pipe dreams. China is crazy when it comes to those things.


    As I like to say, in China they put their pants on one leg at a time just as we do. So anything should be taken with a grain of salt and actually be judged once it's finished.
    Actually as more and more informations come to the surface this might be a case of corruption.

    Also what Leyen has done with the Bundeswehr before AKK took over was beyond incompetence.
     
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  19. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Bo Son oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005


    This is more about the rhetoric and people being tired of it.
     
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  20. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I think a lot of people think the same way about the other side too.