Enclave in FO3

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by Public, Nov 3, 2008.

  1. Crowley

    Crowley It Wandered In From the Wastes

    180
    Dec 12, 2003
    After reading about the storyline there's something that I do not quite grasp. If the Enclave were to stick their remodeled FEV into the purified water, how far would the effects reach? Just targeting the couple hundred people who apparently inhabit the D.C. area seems kinda petty considering the Enclave's world-changing goals in Fallout 2.
     
  2. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    Well it is a weak storyline, mostly ripping of Fallout 2.
    Trying to think about it will only hurt your mind.

    Bethesda thought they could get away with it as its target audience probably had never played Fallout 1 and 2 thus don't know the storylines of either games.
     
  3. betamonkey

    betamonkey First time out of the vault

    93
    Oct 15, 2008
    The purifier would alter millions of gallons of water fairly quickly. And it wouldn't just stop. If it succeeded then the technology could be replicated elsewhere as well.
     
  4. Crowley

    Crowley It Wandered In From the Wastes

    180
    Dec 12, 2003
    Another question I meant to present in my previous post but forgot: Is it mentioned anywhere in-game that the new modified FEV survives boiling or other easily available water purification treatments? If not, it seems like a moot point to poison the water and then have it thwarted easily by paranoid people once the word gets around...
     
  5. Ninjerk

    Ninjerk First time out of the vault

    54
    Nov 8, 2008
    Fawkes would figure out a way to excuse such a minor detail.
     
  6. Photeus

    Photeus First time out of the vault

    17
    Oct 25, 2008
    My understanding of the topic at hand is somewhat limited but is this:

    Kid's Dad from Greyditch:

    Him and a group of other Enclaver's ditched Navarro (seemed like just after the Oil Rig went down) and they were considered 'defectors' so they were hiding. When he and his family eventually moved to DC (this part was confusing, because it seemed like he would have been -at least- 60 when they got to DC, and his son looked to be 12-14 at oldest) he found out the Enclave was already there, and took up arms because of it. Seems like around the same time the Scientist shows up, and then Greyditch happens. Long story short, this suggests the East Coast Enclave has been there for awhile and it seems that lower ranks of the West Coast didn't even know that.

    Eden is somewhat surprising because he genuinely is trying to do what He thinks is right. Additionally, he's not waiting around or taking it by force if he doesn't have to. He is trying to do what is right, the right way, to the best of his abilities. I even believe if everything were to come back on track, he would start an election and a real President would take his place. Considering this, I think it's not that far-fetched that once convinced he is wrong, he kinda 'breaks'. He is a problem-solver and meant to make perfect decisions - when he comes along the problem that his 'perfect' decisions were created by imperfect humans. This causes him to realize that he is unfit to lead, and also lose his own purpose. He's merely a computer, and would rather not-exist than exist in error. And to be told this by a fallible human...talk about insult to injury.

    I totally agree that there was a problem with the presentation regarding Eden. Had all this information been explained better, within Eden's dialog...possibly as a 'mental breakdown' of sorts (perhaps with a good-karma option of discouraging suicide, and instead encouraging a format or a bad-karma option telling him "it's not worth it") then I would have enjoyed it more. And something more creative than just 'blow myself up' would have been nice. Maybe convince Eden to 'help' and distract the Enclave...as a way to leave the BoS out of it. Or perhaps make it so that Eden can reformat himself...but then He becomes even worse and seeks to destroy all people ( a machine takeover scenario). I think more could have been done in making the character more interesting overall, but I understood it as it was given.
     
  7. The Guardian

    The Guardian It Wandered In From the Wastes

    119
    Jan 17, 2008
    The new Enclave power armor looked like ass, a mix between Fallout: Tactics (which I loved, but only as a completely new BoS design, which the Enclave would obviously never adopt) armor, and glass armor from Oblivion. It's a fail.

    Also, doesn't the Enclave have a lasting area of control in Alaska?
     
  8. Ausir

    Ausir Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Apr 20, 2003
    Or they simply got there more quickly from the West Coast than he did, using Vertibirds.
     
  9. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    Soon NMA will come up with a better explenation than Beth's no-explenaton...
     
  10. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    I guess I could come up with something, but why would any one of us want to fix Bethesda's mess?
     
  11. k9wazere

    k9wazere It Wandered In From the Wastes

    134
    Nov 20, 2008
    I have two problems with Eden.

    1. AI's that become "self-aware" are the silly. You either design a machine with sentience or it never has any, I'm afraid.

    2. No human would ever follow the orders of a machine. The chain of command only applies to humans following human orders.

    No military would ever, ever put a machine in charge. No officer would ever agree to be the subordinate of an AI. Especially if it's running Windows 2077.
     
  12. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    That I agree with, the whole crap about Eden becoming 'sentient' by reaching some kind of 'critical mass' is absurd.

    In order to build a sentient computer you have to create dedicated software and hardware that can memorize, analyze, and determine.

    Well you have to understand both the Fallout mindset, which is 50's like, thus allowing the window for a computer to lead people and the fact that the Enclave was pretty much leaderless.

    Most of their people had died at the Poseidon Oil Rig, leaving only a handful of bases and outposts such as Navarro.
    There were high ranking military officers left but how long would they keep up moral amongst their people?

    Eden represented a sort of idea that the Enclave could rebuild itself; here's a new president who is going to make sure that the Enclave doesn't go out with a whimper after having survived for almost two centuries after the War.

    But I do not mean to give the impression that Bethesda handled it well, quite far from it.
    Eden was quite willing to destroy itself and the people it supposedly was in charge of.

    Of course Autumn wasn't exactly sanity either.
    Both characters are badly written.
     
  13. Slaughter Manslaught

    Slaughter Manslaught Vault Senior Citizen

    Dec 11, 2006
    It would be the supreme dark irony... :twisted:

    "Hai guises, let's poison the water with a superdeath virus so any mutant that drinks from the Potomac dies horribly. We aren't mutants, so we survive!"

    "It's a graet idea, let's do it!"

    End Game slide, narrated by Ron Pearlman:

    The genious plan of the Enclave to kill every mutant of Washington DC was defeated, not by the lone wanderer, but by the first one to have the brillant idea to boil the water. Defeated by this primitive method of water purification, the Enclave was forced to flee before they are defeated by the fearful combat shotguns and chinese assault rifles of the wastelanders.
     
  14. DeadEye001

    DeadEye001 First time out of the vault

    38
    Nov 13, 2008
    Okay, this is rose-tinted glasses. I have been replaying the last two games over the past couple of days. I just finished Fallout again, and I specifically loaded up a save right before Eden so I could contrast his dialogue with the Master's dialogue. You get three lines about the Master's plan, then you say there's a problem with his plan, then you tell him mutants are sterile. He then says the equivalent of "bullshit", you counter, he says the equivalent of "where's your evidence", you supply it, he says "you're lying", you say he's denying the truth, and you finally confirm that his race will die in a generation. It wasn't as long or elaborate as you remember. In fact, it's probably ten lines of dialogue.

    The conversations are of similar length. The Master is really not some font of exposition; a lot of his dialogue is repetition in his various voices. Yes, his dialogue is well-written, and goes a long way in establishing his character (given that it's pretty much all you experience of his character) but it is not reams and reams of dialogue. Eden's is undeniably similar in length. Eden's dialogue, however, seems more direct. He states the facts as he sees them, and his dialogue seems quite short and to the point, and very grounded, compared to the Master.

    And regardless of people's personal opinions on the 'logic trap' in Eden's shutdown, the argument that it's vague just isn't the case. He makes the argument that the decisions and plans he has made are right, because he is infallible, 'unlike humans'. He knows he is infallible because he has been programmed to be infallible. Forcing him to acknowledge the circularity of this perspective makes him realize that yes, his logic is in error.

    As a side note, what's with people bitching about how you need to build a sentient computer to have a sentient computer? I mean, seriously? The concept of a supercomputer becoming self-aware is not exactly a groundbreaking advance in science fiction. The Terminator franchise is 24 years old at this point, and that's only the most mainstream example. AM, the supercomputer in I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream, developed sentience independently. That story was published 41 years ago. And the argument above that people wouldn't follow a computer... why not? Both of the stories I mention above involve humans putting an AI in charge of militaries and nuclear weapons. Are those stories absurd now? You cannot rationally argue that this is an absurd occurrence in a sci-fi setting.
     
  15. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Uh-huh. Here's a transcription of the entire dialogue to convince Eden to kill himself (not the logic loop)

    PC: "[speech] This has to end, Eden. You need to destroy yourself and your base"
    E: "And why would I do that, when I am clearly the best hope for the people of the Wasteland?"
    PC: "You can't just decide to take over, and force everyone to follow you."
    E: "What alternative would you suggest? Without the Enclave, what would the world do?"
    PC: "If you don't stop it now, where will it end? It's up to you to do what's right."
    E: "Yes, I suppose it is. Very well, you shall have your wish. Once you have left, I will put an end to the Enclave."


    Anyone want to start a slow clap? Anyone? Note that the circular logic dialogue is slightly better but not by much - it actually makes some sense, tho', whereas the abovementioned doesn't, at all.
    Here's the Master's dialogue:

    TVD: You've got a problem with your master plan.
    TM: And what is that?
    TVD: I happen to know that your mutants are sterile
    TM: Preposterous! The FEV-2 virus doesn't destroy the reproductive organs of those it mutates.
    TVD: Perhaps the virus didn't sterilize people once, but it does now.
    TM: Do you have proof?
    TVD: Of course, I do! Here it is . . .
    TM: I must digest this information. One moment.
    TM: But it cannot be. This would mean that all my work has been for nothing. Everything that I have tried to . . . a failure! It can't be. Be. Be. Be.
    TVD: Sorry, this isn't an option for you. Your race will die out after this generation.
    TM: I . . . don't think that I can continue. Continue? To have done the things I have done in the name of progress and healing. It was madness. I can see that now. Madness. Madness? There is no hope. Leave now, leave while you still have hope . . .

    (also note this conversation has several branches like the Vault Dweller asking him to ask a female mutant or the Lieutenant whereas the Eden dialogue has naught)

    I can't believe you're even beginning to compare that to the Master's dialogue. It's not the same length, it doesn't have the same logical integrity (as in: the Master actually has a supplied reason to kill himself, where is Eden's?)

    Actually the Master's character is spread out throughout the game in stories you hear about him or holodiscs you find of him. The whole thing is built up, just like the logic behind the super mutant project being doomed to failure was actually built up.

    Ok, so he's 200 years old, and has been surrounded by an active Enclave organisation for decades now and...somehow this topic never came up? Grade school logic never occurred to him or Autumn who, y'know, had an agenda against him

    And since he's ZAX-based, why is this error not known in other ZAX AIs?
     
  16. DeadEye001

    DeadEye001 First time out of the vault

    38
    Nov 13, 2008
    So your argument is that Eden's dialogue isn't as long... well, as long as you don't bother to mention half of the dialogue, I can see how you could come to that conclusion. Now, I will admit that the one dialogue tree you have provided seems dumb, and it is. So, how about the option where you bring up the fact that he can't even control the Enclave? How about the science dialogue? I mean, if your point is that a quarter of the dialogue options available don't make sense, then I completely agree with you. What about the other three quarters that you completely avoid discussing?

    That's exposition, not characterization. Reading a holodisc about his plan isn't characterization. Hearing a story about some faceless guy called the Master isn't characterization, it's foreshadowing. What I'm talking about is your conversation with the guy, in which you actually get to see his motivations and explanations for establishing his plan. That's characterization.

    I would probably wager that the members of the Enclave aren't looking for a means of destroying him. If he presents a reasonable and valid course of action to the benefit of the Enclave, and I'm interested in pursuing a reasonable and valid course of action to the benefit of the Enclave, I'll go with the plan. And the specifics of Autumn's distrust aren't explored in the game. But he's still been a member of the Enclave his entire life, and the Enclave has been relying on Eden for the last 200 years. Maybe he doesn't question Eden's fallibility because he's been indoctrinated to believe that Eden is infallible. Who knows. The reason why your character explores the issue is because your character is motivated by conflict. You're looking for a way to stop the Enclave from taking over the Wasteland. Autumn isn't.

    Because most ZAX AIs haven't attempted to establish themselves as the President of the United States, would be my guess.
     
  17. Kindo

    Kindo Still Mildly Glowing

    200
    Jun 26, 2003
    The events that take place in Raven Rock and in the city afterwards, are altogether confusing to me; maybe someone could help explain them to me?

    [spoiler:dc21229d7b]Why does a huge fight break out among the Enclave? As far as I can tell, it's the robots controlled by Eden attacking the human soldiers, and this makes sense if you convince Eden to self-destruct upon which he tells you that he will do what he can to help you escape - but the confusion starts when I actually agree with his reasoning and accept the task to contaminate the purifier. Then, a giant battle still breaks out inside the base, and I receive no explanation to this whatsoever. After I have escaped, I am still tasked with joining up with Lyons and storm the Jefferson Memorial with Liberty Prime, since the Enclave is hostile and won't let anyone through. Why is this? Why can't I, as I am now an ally to the Enclave and have agreed to carry out its plans, just walk in freely and do what I have to do? Or better yet, why wasn't this vial given to Colonel Autumn in the first place?

    I just don't get it - have I missed some important dialogue somewhere? Is the Colonel opposing Eden suddenly or something? They were working together before, when Autumn interrupted the project and died from radiation poisoning in the chamber, together with my dad (that poses another question: Why is there no word given as to why both Autumn and Anna Holt survive, while my dad most assuredly dies?) I can't explanations to this anywhere, so what am I missing? It's really frustrating not knowing what the hell is going on.[/spoiler:dc21229d7b]

    In point-form (probably should have done this to begin with):

    [spoiler:dc21229d7b]• Autumn and the Enclave interrupt our work at the purifier.
    • Autumn wants the codes for the purifier form dad. Shoots Anna Holt (I'm not sure it is her, actually, and haven't been able to verify this in any way).
    • Dad causes an explosion of some sort, which causes massive amounts of radiation to fill the sealed-off room. The two Enclave soldiers, Autumn, and dad die from this as I escape with Doctor Li.
    • After retreiving a G.E.C.K. from Vault 87, I am captured by the now-alive-again Colonel Autumn and taken as a prisoner to Raven Rock.
    • Interrogations are interrupted (no explanation for Autumn's revival is given) as Eden summons Autumn to his office. Eden tells me to come meet him, although he seems to play some nonsensical game with me, forcing me to fight my way there.
    • While searching for Eden, I find Anna Holt alive and well in one of the rooms. Apparently she betrayed my dad and Li for some reason.
    • Eden's sentry robots shoot two guards posted outside his office, granting me access.
    • I speak to Eden who explains to me that he intends to use the purifier to spread an altered version of the FEV in order to destroy all mutation in the Capital Wasteland.
    • He asks me to perform this task, perhaps because I'm the only one who knows the code. I agree.
    • All hell breaks loose in Raven Rock as robots and Enclave troops start fighting for no apparent reason.
    • After my escape, I am forced to enlist the aid of the Brotherhood of Steel in order to bust through the Enclave defences erected around the Memorial and the purifier. Why can't I waltz on in, seeing how I'm on their side now?
    • As I reach the purifier, Colonel Autumn stops me, and tries to kill me. He never explains why.[/spoiler:dc21229d7b]

    So that's basically the entire end-game, which makes absolutely no sense to me. What am I missing? Or are the writers to blame for this? I'd really appreciate some clarification, if there even is any to be had. Heh.
     
  18. Viliny

    Viliny Vault Senior Citizen

    Aug 19, 2008
    Woah, haven't bothered to play that far yet but that seems like it's full of logical errors...

    A well constructed assessment Kindo
     
  19. Kindo

    Kindo Still Mildly Glowing

    200
    Jun 26, 2003
    Why, thank you. I'm just so confused - and not in the good way of "Whoa! What's going on? Wow... this is brilliantly deceptive." but in the bad way of "What the heck? It feels like something's missing here..."
     
  20. k9wazere

    k9wazere It Wandered In From the Wastes

    134
    Nov 20, 2008
    I'm making as much effort trying to understand the plot as Beth made writing it.

    OK, who's for ice-cream?